Polygon: MS needs to admit the XB1 Kinect is a peripheral, not a pack-in.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

All I will say is... there was pretty much the same, if not bigger a price difference between the PS3 and Xbox 360. We all know that in the end it all worked out fairly even, in fact I think in more recent months the PS3 actually overtook the XB360 because prices on BOTH dropped.

We also know that both consoles are selling way more than both did at last generation. Please stop with the price rubbish because it ultimately right now.

I don't doubt Kinect is not everyone's cup of tea but last generation, but lets also admit that Kinect V1 incredibly well last gen so MS tried to captailise on that fact and as its been said all along, if everyone has one then it will promote Dev's to use it.

The PS3/360 difference was slightly differently fought out. Sony spent a lot of time marketing the PS3 with Blu Ray in the beginning causing them to get sales from media enthusiasts. After that ship started to slow it was then pounding home free MP gaming.

As I mentioned above MS have no such luck with free additional ammo right now, they're losing on the tech specs front with the drama around resolution and FPS.

[webdev511]

The only real mistake MSFT made is, as others have pointed out, not having a title at launch that highlights what Kinect 2 can do. No Kinect Sports/Adventures at release sure hasn't helped them make the case for requiring it on every system.

 

It's a very long game for Microsoft, but it seems like everyone wants to predict what  Xbox One & PS4 ultimate results are going to be today. Is there some sort of prize for doing so that I'm not aware of or is clickbait forecasting it's own reward?

[trooper11]

As I mentioned above MS have no such luck with free additional ammo right now, they're losing on the tech specs front with the drama around resolution and FPS.

Basically, Sony had something positive to lean on early in the life of the ps3, MS has no such thing with the X1.

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

Hey, thats fine, I get where your coming from on it. I'm a little tired arguing the merits of Kinect. Even the smallest of features it adds to the experience are apparently unreasonable. You win, it must go. It really does not matter what you or I think of it, but people insist on arguing these points over and over.

It is interesting you bring up VR as the next big thing and yet miss the oppurtunity where motion controls are used in combonation with VR hardware.

But again, I'm tired of arguing the merits of motion controls or Kinect, its clear everyone is quite settled on their position and I would be fine with it just going away.

 

Your right. MS must drop Kinect or cut the price and eat the losses. End of story.

 

Come on now, no need to go down that road with the tone etc.

 

You've been a source of good discussion this entire topic and overall on the forums. I think AB finally has someone to play 'wall of text' with :P I get that it's impossible to change people's minds too, but there's still a lot of value in the discussion to be had (Y)

[trooper11]

Come on now, no need to go down that road with the tone etc.

 

You've been a source of good discussion this entire topic and overall on the forums. I think AB finally has someone to play 'wall of text' with :p I get that it's impossible to change people's minds too, but there's still a lot of value in the discussion to be had (Y)

I'm finding it hard to see any value in it. The problem MS has is not whether I like or hate Kinect nor whether Audioboxer likes or hates Kinect. MS' problem is one of sales, plain and simple. They have to look at the current sales and decide if things are going as they expect, ahead of projections, or behind. Based on that answer, then decide what might need to be done in the short term.

If the X1 is selling the way they had projected or even a bit ahead, then maybe they have no reason to make any changes at all to their plans. If its selling behind where they want to be, then its time to look at all of the possible ways to improve the situation. That includes dropping the price, dropping the price and removing Kinect, among other options.

All this other talk about the value of Kinect, bundling it for developers, exclusive content, the future hot tech (i.e. VR) etc is fine, but what is there left to say? What hasn't been put out there at this point?

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

I'm finding it hard to see any value in it. The problem MS has is not whether I like or hate Kinect nor whether Audioboxer likes or hates Kinect. MS' problem is one of sales, plain and simple. They have to look at the current sales and decide if things are going as they expect, ahead of projections, or behind. Based on that answer, then decide what might need to be done in the short term.

If the X1 is selling the way they had projected or even a bit ahead, then maybe they have no reason to make any changes at all to their plans. If its selling behind where they want to be, then its time to look at all of the possible ways to improve the situation. That includes dropping the price, dropping the price and removing Kinect, among other options.

All this other talk about the value of Kinect, bundling it for developers, exclusive content, the future hot tech (i.e. VR) etc is fine, but what is there left to say? What hasn't been put out there at this point?

 

I take it you're retiring from forum life then? You sound like me when I left Neowin :P

 

But I understand where you're coming from and why it seems fruitless. All I can say is, if you don't find value in it then just keep playing games and enjoy the ride basically. The rest isn't anything you can control anyway so no point worrying about it. I like to think that if enough noise is made then MS, Ninty and Sony pay attention and we can have a hand in changing stuff. The DRM removal was proof of that and the entire PS3 life was a big lesson in what gamers/developers wanted.

[trooper11]

I take it you're retiring from forum life then? You sound like me when I left Neowin :p

 

But I understand where you're coming from and why it seems fruitless. All I can say is, if you don't find value in it then just keep playing games and enjoy the ride basically. The rest isn't anything you can control anyway so no point worrying about it. I like to think that if enough noise is made then MS, Ninty and Sony pay attention and we can have a hand in changing stuff. The DRM removal was proof of that and the entire PS3 life was a big lesson in what gamers/developers wanted.

Its not anything that grand like 'Oh I'm leaving some forum on the internet'

I just try to remind myself that there is often times when you just have to step back and try to have perspective on these things. We far too often get caught up in our personal opinion on something and have no way of seeing what its like from the other perspective.

Some people really have fun rehashing the old battles, I do not. I'm getting way too old to care :laugh:

So regarding this topic, after everything that has been said, we are right back where it started: Should MS get rid of Kinect?

If this whole VR fad takes hold, we may be arguing about the value of VR headset pack in at some point. Or maybe VR + motion control pack in. This stuff comes around.

[Yusuf M. Veteran]

The lack of choice is what soured it for me and my best friend. We weren't happy about paying $100 more than a PS4 for something that we didn't want. I don't want the Kinect and I doubt I ever will. Sure, gesture controls and voice commands are convenient but the latter can be implemented without Kinect. All that's required is a good microphone. I'm not surprised at the PS4's sales lead and I imagine the gap will widen unless Microsoft lowers the price or offers a Kinect-free Xbox One.

[trooper11]

This whole pack in vs seperate topic reminds me of the WiiU. People have said that Nintendo made the mistake of bundling the equivalent of a tablet controller with the console. For Nintendo, its a differentiator.

For MS, Kinect is a differentiator. If that is destined to die off, then MS has to find an alternative differentiator against Sony. You can't say games since both consoles will have good games. you cant say graphics since the ps4 has the advantage there. You could say price only if MS lowers the price of the X1 below that of the ps4. It really doesn't look good for them no matter how your spin it.

If MS can eat the losses and lower price while still bundling Kinect, that may be the best long term choice.

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

Its not anything that grand like 'Oh I'm leaving some forum on the internet'

I just try to remind myself that there is often times when you just have to step back and try to have perspective on these things. We far too often get caught up in our personal opinion on something and have no way of seeing what its like from the other perspective.

Some people really have fun rehashing the old battles, I do not. I'm getting way too old to care :laugh:

So regarding this topic, after everything that has been said, we are right back where it started: Should MS get rid of Kinect?

If this whole VR fad takes hold, we may be arguing about the value of VR headset pack in at some point. Or maybe VR + motion control pack in. This stuff comes around.

 

Good, I'm glad to hear it ;)

 

I like to look at it from all perspectives and I'm not one to make snap decisions either. I gave them the chance to wow me with Kinect once and they blew it. I have it sitting in the box that the option is there for them to do it again. I don't believe they will though and quite frankly hope they don't waste their energy on it either. At least not before they get other stuff back on track and in a position where they have time to worry about it.

 

And I don't doubt VR or some other technology won't take it's place or become the next hot topic. Some people just always need more to hook them into buying the next iteration.

[trooper11]

Good, I'm glad to hear it ;)

 

I like to look at it from all perspectives and I'm not one to make snap decisions either. I gave them the chance to wow me with Kinect once and they blew it. I have it sitting in the box that the option is there for them to do it again. I don't believe they will though and quite frankly hope they don't waste their energy on it either. At least not before they get other stuff back on track and in a position where they have time to worry about it.

See I could go into all the little things that Kinect has added to my experience with the X1 that go beyond playing a motion based game, but then it seems like most people dont want to hear it. I get why people dont like Kinect. If you are someone that wants to be wowed by Kinect via kinect-only games, then of course thats a big problem. Anyone that has no interest in the other uses is going to have a problem.

This does not need to be about defending an opinion or interest. That comes up so much becuase its bundled. Ok, it still came up last gen when it wasn't bundled (although that version of Kinect was so lacking in usage outside of kinect-only titles), but its worse now.

Unlike the DRM stuff, the Kinect question has not created the outpouring of negative reaction that drove MS to act. Instead, its sort of a simmering negative reaction. So maybe that, combined with MS' plans for making the device useful beyond playing a game, led them to roll the dice and see if it could work. To me, it was kind of nice to see them really try to push forward with features that were different from the competition. Having two next gen consoles that were only sepereated by the games you prefered is fine, but a bit more boring.

I may not be as against Kinect as other people are, but if most users want it gone, then MS has to do the right thing and make the change.

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

See I could go into all the little things that Kinect has added to my experience with the X1 that go beyond playing a motion based game, but then it seems like most people dont want to hear it. I get why people dont like Kinect. If you are someone that wants to be wowed by Kinect via kinect-only games, then of course thats a big problem. Anyone that has no interest in the other uses is going to have a problem.

This does not need to be about defending an opinion or interest. That comes up so much becuase its bundled. Ok, it still came up last gen when it wasn't bundled (although that version of Kinect was so lacking in usage outside of kinect-only titles), but its worse now.

Unlike the DRM stuff, the Kinect question has not created the outpouring of negative reaction that drove MS to act. Instead, its sort of a simmering negative reaction. So maybe that, combined with MS' plans for making the device useful beyond playing a game, led them to roll the dice and see if it could work. To me, it was kind of nice to see them really try to push forward with features that were different from the competition. Having two next gen consoles that were only sepereated by the games you prefered is fine, but a bit more boring.

I may not be as against Kinect as other people are, but if most users want it gone, then MS has to do the right thing and make the change.

 

I'm interested to hear it and I'm interested to hear how people justify the difference in price and how they calculate that worth into how they use it. I obviously don't agree with it myself but I wouldn't be taking part in the discussions if I wasn't interested. It doesn't need to be a Kinect only game to wow me, but it better be used in more compelling ways than what they've shown in the past and so far for the X1.

 

We definitely see the reaction to kinect 1 and 2 differently though. It's a very small pocket of people that enjoy using it from what I see and almost always for niche reasons. I'm not just talking about Neowin either, but Reddit and other forums too.

 

What I think we all agree on is that it is one giant mess that has no easy answer. MS are stuck between a rock and a hard place how they're going to go forward.

[trooper11]

We definitely see the reaction to kinect 1 and 2 differently though. It's a very small pocket of people that enjoy using it from what I see and almost always for niche reasons. I'm not just talking about Neowin either, but Reddit and other forums too.

 

What I think we all agree on is that it is one giant mess that has no easy answer. MS are stuck between a rock and a hard place how they're going to go forward.

So you believe the reaction to Kinect 2 has been as strong as the reaction to the drm issues? If that really is true, then MS made a huge mistake ignoring it.

Doing another 180 may be the right choice, but it could be just as damaging as sticking with it.

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

So you believe the reaction to Kinect 2 has been as strong as the reaction to the drm issues? If that really is true, then MS made a huge mistake ignoring it.

Doing another 180 may be the right choice, but it could be just as damaging as sticking with it.

 

Yup, almost exactly the same tbh. A small % of people seem to see something others don't. Whether they really get something out of it or just want to shout "future!" and stick their heads in the sand, but at least IMO, the overwhelming response is not a good one. Bookmark this reply and you'll see what I mean come E3 and their little kinect segment and I bet the twitter feeds all groan and tune out until it's over.

 

That is unless hell freezes over and they pull something out the bag, but I'm willing to bet that won't be the case. I can probably give you the exact timing order of a MS conference too while we're at it :P :laugh:

[Showan]

3months is waaaaaay to early to be coming to conclusions. Especially when the company funding that's behind the hardware, has $$$ for years to come, and employ some of the worlds smartest people.

Kinect does need a Kinect based game (not entirely motion based either) to show its capability as far as gaming goes. But the little things outside of gaming does become natural and adds a bit of of "where was this, all this time".

Kinect is not a problem yet so far. $100 is the main problem. But Microsoft is stuck between a rock and the hard place, pleasing the end user and shutting up investors by not taking a loss on each unit sold....

At first Kinect wasn't the problem, now Kinect is the problem... No matter what it seems Microsoft can't win with "The core gamer"

People waited years for a $600 Blu-Ray player to become an awesome video game machine. But people are already writing off, a entertainment box that does play video games very well right out the box. That's only been on shelves for 3months. That is a little biased.

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

3months is waaaaaay to early to be coming to conclusions. Especially when the company funding that's behind the hardware, has $$$ for years to come, and employ some of the worlds smartest people.

Kinect does need a Kinect based game (not entirely motion based either) to show its capability as far as gaming goes. But the little things outside of gaming does become natural and adds a bit of of "where was this, all this time".

Kinect is not a problem yet so far. $100 is the main problem. But Microsoft is stuck between a rock and the hard place, pleasing the end user and shutting up investors by not taking a loss on each unit sold....

At first Kinect wasn't the problem, now Kinect is the problem... No matter what it seems Microsoft can't win with "The core gamer"

People waited years for a $600 Blu-Ray player to become an awesome video game machine. But people are already writing off, a entertainment box that does play video games very well right out the box. That's only been on shelves for 3months. That is a little biased.

 

I don't think anyone is writing the X1 off because of Kinect. I think the "resolutiongate" is far more damaging in that sense which people would write it off over. I think removing Kinect would be the last tickbox for lots of people who want to buy one though. I certainly haven't wrote the console off even with my opinions on it and I bought one on day 1.

 

Times have changed though and while these consoles are going to be playing the long game, you don't have 6 years to turn it around any more. This generation is predicted to be much shorter (5 years) because of the problems the prolonged generation caused.

[trooper11]

Yup, almost exactly the same tbh. A small % of people seem to see something others don't. Whether they really get something out of it or just want to shout "future!" and stick their heads in the sand, but at least IMO, the overwhelming response is not a good one. Bookmark this reply and you'll see what I mean come E3 and their little kinect segment and I bet the twitter feeds all groan and tune out until it's over.

 

That is unless hell freezes over and they pull something out the bag, but I'm willing to bet that won't be the case. I can probably give you the exact timing order of a MS conference too while we're at it :p :laugh:

I'm trying to remember this, but how much time did MS devote to Kinect in last year's E3? At the time, I remember the surprise at the lack of attention it got in regards to motion controlled games.

See I think MS gets it, they just hoped they could shift the focus away from Kinect as a platform that required exclusive gaming content. I would not be shocked at all if this E3 is also devoid of Kinect gaming talk. MS' whole plan around Kinect shifted after last gen.

I always thought that Kinect in its first form was just too limited to do much beyond play motion controlled games and so MS pushed it as a gaming platform. This time around, the tech is much more robust and the console itself is more robust from the OS perspective. That means MS had more ways of using it and no longer had to subject everyone to cringe worthy Kinect demos at an event.

Regardless, people still hate it and apparently people will buy an X1 once they drop it and cut the price. If that is true, then you will see MS try to make the change. Right now, MS has managed to create a platform that probably breaks the record for quickest console to reach 'fail' status.

[trooper11]

I don't think anyone is writing the X1 off because of Kinect. I think the "resolutiongate" is far more damaging in that sense which people would write it off over. I think removing Kinect would be the last tickbox for lots of people who want to buy one though. I certainly haven't wrote the console off even with my opinions on it and I bought one on day 1.

I'm not sure removing Kinect will be so miraculous as you think, but we will see. Sure a price drop will help, but I wonder if mearly matching the ps4 price will be enough.

There just isnt any enthusiasm for the platform. At least enthusiasm from the online gaming community.

[Showan]

Kinect should not be removed. Microsoft should have a random Kinect, games only event. Like at Build or something.

Let the small developers go crazy, showing what they can do with it. And then drop 1 or 2 bigger games in there that have some sort of Kinect Function to it. Then at E3 they don't even have to mention it. Kinect isn't a total bust yet. Microsoft just can't be scared to talk. about it.

Kinect fitness shows that the sensor can keep up to a degree. Sure it's not a game, but there are some intense fast paced workouts, and the Kinect holds it own. So that alone proves it is capable of getting the job done.

No matter what it can't be worst than Haze., Can it???

[trooper11]

Kinect should not be removed. Microsoft should have a random Kinect, games only event. Like at Build or something.

Let the small developers go crazy, showing what they can do with it. And then drop 1 or 2 bigger games in there that have some sort of Kinect Function to it. Then at E3 they don't even have to mention it. Kinect isn't a total bust yet. Microsoft just can't be scared to talk. about it.

Kinect fitness shows that the sensor can keep up to a degree. Sure it's not a game, but there are some intense fast paced workouts, and the Kinect holds it own. So that alone proves it is capable of getting the job done.

No matter what it can't be worst than Haze., Can it???

Well I dont think that is a crazy idea, but you know what people will say. If MS had an event that was devoted to Kinect content development, it would just get smeared and ignored. It would be great if it resulted in something positive though.

Maybe having an event at BUILD would be more acceptable since that is not a highly charged gaming event.

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

I'm trying to remember this, but how much time did MS devote to Kinect in last year's E3? At the time, I remember the surprise at the lack of attention it got in regards to motion controlled games.

See I think MS gets it, they just hoped they could shift the focus away from Kinect as a platform that required exclusive gaming content. I would not be shocked at all if this E3 is also devoid of Kinect gaming talk. MS' whole plan around Kinect shifted after last gen.

I always thought that Kinect in its first form was just too limited to do much beyond play motion controlled games and so MS pushed it as a gaming platform. This time around, the tech is much more robust and the console itself is more robust from the OS perspective. That means MS had more ways of using it and no longer had to subject everyone to cringe worthy Kinect demos at an event.

Regardless, people still hate it and apparently people will buy an X1 once they drop it and cut the price. If that is true, then you will see MS try to make the change. Right now, MS has managed to create a platform that probably breaks the record for quickest console to reach 'fail' status.

 

I honestly don't remember.

 

I don't think it has shifted though, not the way they planned to launch X1 with another Kinect Sports title and the only other game AFAIK which uses it was the Fighter Within. Which was universally panned like it's Kinect 1 brother was. And what's on the horizon? Another Harmonix music game, just like Dance Central was the centre piece for Kinect 1. History is already repeating itself and yes we're only 3 months in. It's pretty dire.

 

I'm not sure removing Kinect will be so miraculous as you think, but we will see. Sure a price drop will help, but I wonder if mearly matching the ps4 price will be enough.

There just isnt any enthusiasm for the platform. At least enthusiasm from the online gaming community.

 

It won't fix everything that people dislike, but I've always said I think it'll help them in the sales war. Not sure if you mean the Kinect platform or the Xbox platform as a whole, the latter I definitely think has enthusiasm offline and on. My take on it is tough love just like I treated Sony last generation. I do it because I want them to get back on their feet, not because I want it to be a one horse race.

 

 

Kinect should not be removed. Microsoft should have a random Kinect, games only event. Like at Build or something.

Let the small developers go crazy, showing what they can do with it. And then drop 1 or 2 bigger games in there that have some sort of Kinect Function to it. Then at E3 they don't even have to mention it. Kinect isn't a total bust yet. Microsoft just can't be scared to talk. about it.

Kinect fitness shows that the sensor can keep up to a degree. Sure it's not a game, but there are some intense fast paced workouts, and the Kinect holds it own. So that alone proves it is capable of getting the job done.

No matter what it can't be worst than Haze., Can it???

 

Stop recycling your tweets :p (yes I noticed). There was nothing terrible about Haze, it was just a mediocre shooter, so there's no need to bring it up like some bar of measurement. You're beginning to edge on troll territory when you bring up stuff like that unnecessarily.

[trooper11]

I don't think it has shifted though, not the way they planned to launch X1 with another Kinect Sports title and the only other game AFAIK which uses it was the Fighter Within. Which was universally panned like it's Kinect 1 brother was. And what's on the horizon? Another Harmonix music game, just like Dance Central was the centre piece for Kinect 1. History is already repeating itself and yes we're only 3 months in. It's pretty dire.

Just look at how they treated Kinect in the events leading up to launch. Look at how they talked about it in relation to the console itself. MS really did shift their strategy with Kinect vs last gen. Sure they have a Kinect Sports title in the works and yes there will be third party titles that are motion controlled, but its clear that MS was not going to pour millions pushing Kinect or pushing motion controlled games. Look at their advertising.

Again, if all Kinect is good for is to play motion controlled games, then its doomed to failure becuase no amount of motion controlled games will win over the core gamer beyond the small group that likes casual and core titles. My point is MS has been trying to make it less about motion controlled games and more about its general utility for using the system or being used in core titles where it makes sense (i.e. voice controls).

It won't fix everything that people dislike, but I've always said I think it'll help them in the sales war. Not sure if you mean the Kinect platform or the Xbox platform as a whole, the latter I definitely think has enthusiasm offline and on. My take on it is tough love just like I treated Sony last generation. I do it because I want them to get back on their feet, not because I want it to be a one horse race.

I was talking about the xbox platform. I mean its all well and good that you are playing the role of the stern parent :laugh:, but you represent one person. If there is this swelling of enthusiasm for the xbox platform among the online ocmmunity, its hard to find. Not that I blame people for that, there are plenty of reasons that you could come up with to just move on.

Most people aren't thinking about this in terms of wanting to keep competition around.

[DirtyLarry Veteran]

Some people enjoy Kinect. Personally I have not used it now for close to a month. Not even to turn on my console. Truth be told, I felt like an idiot talking to my console to be quite honest. The other important thing to keep in mind is I also barely do much else than game on the One. I have deferred to my PS4 for my media like Netflix and Amazon. I also have not even created a single movie or clip or highlight or whatever it is called. So really, all I do is game on the One, which is why I mentioned in another thread I can get people who are saying they are feeling a bit of buyers remorse, as right now it is pretty barren on the gaming front, and besides Titanfall (which I did breakdown and preorder today just to have something to play), it is looking pretty barren for quite some time.

 

If I am one thing, I am consistent. I have said I have no need for Kinect since 1.0 did not even work in my living room because of size constraints, and now that I have used it, I also say I have no need for it.

 

I imagine I am not alone. I also realize there are plenty that like it.

 

Bottom line my opinion is it should be an option as the article states. If people want to use it and like it, let them purchase it and do so. If they do not need it and have no use for it like myself, do not include it and raise the price of the console by $100. It is not like it is necessary for the overall experience, and hell I can even make the argument it detracts from it overall as it is not always reliable.

 

FTR I think Kuchera is one of the bigger douchebags out there actually. I had a run in with him personally at CES a long time ago now and wanted to punch him in his smug face. And he barely even had a name for himself on Ars at this time but swore his poop did not stink. However this time I do agree with him.

[Showan]

I honestly don't remember.

 

I don't think it has shifted though, not the way they planned to launch X1 with another Kinect Sports title and the only other game AFAIK which uses it was the Fighter Within. Which was universally panned like it's Kinect 1 brother was. And what's on the horizon? Another Harmonix music game, just like Dance Central was the centre piece for Kinect 1. History is already repeating itself and yes we're only 3 months in. It's pretty dire.

 

 

It won't fix everything that people dislike, but I've always said I think it'll help them in the sales war. Not sure if you mean the Kinect platform or the Xbox platform as a whole, the latter I definitely think has enthusiasm offline and on. My take on it is tough love just like I treated Sony last generation. I do it because I want them to get back on their feet, not because I want it to be a one horse race.

 

 

 

Stop recycling your tweets :p (yes I noticed). There was nothing terrible about Haze, it was just a mediocre shooter, so there's no need to bring it up like some bar of measurement. You're beginning to edge on troll territory when you bring up stuff like that unnecessarily.

Im not trying to troll but prove a point.... Rather it be Haze or Ryse, or any mediocre game..., I'm trying to say if you don't take a chance, then you'll never know. Kinect v1 was a "Me Too" product. Kinect v2, "Let's see what we can do, if we take out time with it"

[1337ish]

Right now, MS has managed to create a platform that probably breaks the record for quickest console to reach 'fail' status.

 

I think you have already forgotten about the epic fail that is the WiiU :D