Malaysia Airlines 'loses contact with plane' (and search effort updates)

[philcruicks]

Well this seems to corroborate what the Oil Rig worker said, South of Vietnam and East of Malaysia is roughly where the estimated explosion would have been based on my best guess (see my previous post)

[JJ_]

If the Chinese satellite image is of MH370, it could also explain why some relatives had a dialtone when ringing their loved ones on the flight.. perhaps there was an air pocket within the fuselage.

[jasondefaoite]

Well this seems to corroborate what the Oil Rig worker said, South of Vietnam and East of Malaysia is roughly where the estimated explosion would have been based on my best guess (see my previous post)

 

That's the first thing I thought of when the Chinese released the location the images were taken. Strongest hint yet.

[mudslag]

If the Chinese satellite image is of MH370, it could also explain why some relatives had a dialtone when ringing their loved ones on the flight.. perhaps there was an air pocket within the fuselage.

 

 

 

That spot is a few hundred miles from the nearest land, that's to far to make any kind of connection to a tower. 

[Hum]

Do we have a reliable source for this other than wolf biltzer (and reddit)? I know that something similar was done for the resolution of GPS for civilian use. I.e. it had a selective availability mode that would introduce time varying errors to reduce accuracy. Though, they disabled that years ago.

For what it is worth:

 

State of the Art. China has come a long way in space. In 2000, Beijing orbited its first high-resolution electro-optical imaging satellite, which relays its state-of-the-art digital pictures by radio to ground stations. In the past, Chinese satellites snapped pictures on photographic film which then was dropped down to Earth in canisters.

The resolution of the digital-imaging satellite is less than the capability of the sharpest U.S. military reconnaissance satellites, but comparable to the sharp images produced by U.S. and European commercial satellites, which produce pictures with a resolution of about nine feet.

That means the Chinese satellite, named Ziyuan-2 (ZY-2), could produce photographs showing objects ranging in size down to nine feet across -- a resolution more than three times the capability of China's earlier earth sensing satellite, Ziyuan-1 (ZY-1). ZY-2 is lower in orbit than ZY-1, which also means the satellite could offer higher resolution.

 

http://www.spacetoday.org/China/ChinaSatellites.html

 

2011-08-16 (China Military News from China-defense-mashup) ? At the end of 2008, China launched anew remote sensing satellite ?Yaogan 5? at the Taiyuan Satellite Launch Center in north China?s Shanxi Province.

The satellite was successfully launched into the space on a Long March-4B carrier rocket. Although China said Yaogan-V is going to be used on civilian areas, in fact, this imaging satellite is a great milestone in Chinese space reconnaissance system. From some essaies published in China, Yaogan-V satellite has equipped new high resolution CCD camera and other new concept technologies to reach 0.65 meter (2 feet) or high resolution.

 

And the size of imaging pixel is 10 ?m, the ground imagine single pixel resolution can reach 0.62m.

 

http://www.china-defense-mashup.com/higher-than-062m-chinese-spy-satellite-has-a-better-resolution.html

 

For three days, Chinese researchers have employed high-resolution satellite imaging equipment to search for the Boeing aircraft. This has included satellites with many different sensors, including high-resolution optical telescopes, infrared cameras, synthetic aperture radar and microwave detectors.

 

The search project has also used military satellites with classified technological details. In addition, China has paid overseas commercial satellite companies to use their advanced satellites and to obtain their data.

 

Chi would not comment as to the size of objects that the satellites could detect but added that the resolution was "definitely high enough for the job".

 

 

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1446665/chinas-satellites-missed-best-chance-find-missing-flight

[Dinggus]

Dawn in Maylasia now.

 

Ships will reach the suspected object within an hour or two.

 

 

So what's the word?

[Hum]

^ I do not know.

 

1. They found nothing that is the aircraft.

 

2. They found an aircraft but are not releasing info.

 

Take your pick.

 

An American military official discounted the Chinese images, saying that United States satellites would have seen the object and did not. It was unlikely, the official added, that a large piece of the aircraft would be floating, and in any case, its location was in a high-traffic area near the many ships and aircraft searching for the missing jetliner.

?I cannot possibly believe that image is a valid image,?? the official said.

The Times is also quoting the Malaysian military again as saying they detected *something* flying west. It sounds like that's where the confusion is coming from - they're not sure if this was MH370 or not, but the radar did pick up an unidentified plane flying at 29,500 feet over Malaysia.

 

 

BREAKING WSJ EXCLUSIVE: Engine monitoring data shows missing 777 was airborne for five hours

 

U.S. investigators suspect that Malaysia Airlines  Flight 370 stayed in the air for about four hours past the time it reached its last confirmed location, according to two people familiar with the details, raising the possibility that the plane could have flown on for hundreds of additional miles under conditions that remain murky.

Aviation investigators and national security officials believe the plane flew for a total of five hours based on data automatically downloaded and sent to the ground from the Boeing Co. engines as part of a routine maintenance and monitoring program. :wacko:

 

http://online.wsj.com/news/article_email/SB10001424052702304914904579434653903086282-lMyQjAxMTA0MDEwMzExNDMyWj

 

U.S. counterterrorism officials are pursuing the possibility that a pilot or someone else on board the plane may have diverted it toward an undisclosed location after intentionally turning off the jetliner's transponders to avoid radar detection, according to one person tracking the probe.

 

A total flight time of five hours after departing Kuala Lumpur means the Boeing 777 could have continued for an additional distance of about 2,200 nautical miles, reaching points as far as the Indian Ocean, the border of Pakistan or even the Arabian Sea, based on the jet's cruising speed.

 

Scott Hamilton, a Boeing executive, said in an interview, that he "supected criminal activity on day 2".

 

 

We are back to the hijacking theory !

 

[Daniel Tablas]

So what's the word?

 

No link apparently http://www.cp24.com/world/no-proof-to-link-debris-on-images-to-missing-plane-official-1.1725201#ixzz2voCYGQ00 

[snaphat (Myles Landwehr) Member]

Supposedly the resolution we are getting from the Tomnod (Digital Globe) imagery is 50cm/px so it should be better than what the Chinese satellites are getting according to the above (62cm/px). Evidently, Digital Globe can do 32cm/px, but aren't allowed to give anything higher than 50cm to the public. Or to say that another way 1.6ft is squashed into a pixel. I can't find information about any that can do better resolution than that to be honest. 

 

Did math and the wingspan of the 777 would be around 121 pixels at that size so I'd tentatively the horrible quality we are seeing in the photos above is inline with the technology.

 

To be perfectly honest, I was under the impression that satellite imagery was better resolution than this before I did the math...

 

EDIT: correction above: it should have read 31cm/px NOT 32.

[Hum]

^ USA satellites can read a license plate.

 

And China's pictures are another red herring:

 

1. No reaction from search craft

 

2. USA sats found nothing

 

3. Boeing's download shows engines were running for about 5 hours

[snaphat (Myles Landwehr) Member]

^ USA satellites can read a license plate.

From what I've found, that's just a popular misconception: http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/3637/are-military-spy-satellites-as-advanced-as-people-think-they-are

 

It looks to me like if they drop orbit on the satellites (with the given technology), they can do better than 31cm based on the citations there though which I wasn't finding when looking up actual satellites. I imagine it's a trade off though and that lower orbit satellites aren't oriented to sweep large areas. So if I were to guess, they'd have to find an interesting area first using a sweep and then grab higher resolution images using a closer orbiting sat after that. It'd be something like 10cm. So ~600px for the Wingspan at that point. 

[snaphat (Myles Landwehr) Member]

And China's pictures are another red herring:

 

1. No reaction from search craft

 

2. USA sats found nothing

 

3. Boeing's download shows engines were running for about 5 hours

Annnnd, I see, back to the bigger mystery at large. What's the significance of the last point there?

 

EDIT: Didn't mean to double post...

[blerk]

Annnnd, I see, back to the bigger mystery at large. What's the significance of the last point there?

 

EDIT: Didn't mean to double post...

 If the plane was running for ~5 hours after it went missing, it rules out the possibility of catastrophic failure, therefore theories like hijacking or a lost plane going astray become more likely. 

 

5 hours is a long time, and a 777 can travel quite far in that amount of time. 

[snaphat (Myles Landwehr) Member]

 If the plane was running for ~5 hours after it went missing, it rules out the possibility of catastrophic failure, therefore theories like hijacking or a lost plane going astray become more likely. 

 

5 hours is a long time, and a 777 can travel quite far in that amount of time. 

I see, right that makes sense. Alright, so riddle me this thread: if the plane has engines that were sending automated data for 5 hours after the last known location, why doesn't the plane itself send some sort of location info (even if incorrect) also?

[mudslag]

^ USA satellites can read a license plate.

 

 

 

Unless the license plates are sitting on top of the car facing up towards the sky, they can't technically read them.

[snaphat (Myles Landwehr) Member]

Unless the license plates are sitting on top of the car facing up towards the sky, they can't technically read them.

Based on the data I've been finding on the net, face them upwards and assuming one foot across, you get 3 pixels for the entire length across at 10cm/px resolution. So unless, we are doing CSI TV show style enhancements, you aren't getting the number  :laugh:

[Crimson Rain]

I see, right that makes sense. Alright, so riddle me this thread: if the plane has engines that were sending automated data for 5 hours after the last known location, why doesn't the plane itself send some sort of location info (even if incorrect) also?

My question exactly.

 

How can a plane at mid sea send data back to some headquarter miles away without giving out its location? :/

[riahc3]

Hello,

OK, so now the phone debate has been given some arguements for and against (Im still for that it is strange) but....

Explain the engine; Does it also have to route communications thru its "home" network till it find in what country it is at? :laugh:

[snaphat (Myles Landwehr) Member]

Hello,

OK, so now the phone debate has been given some arguements for and against (Im still for that it is strange) but....

Explain the engine; Does it also have to route communications thru its "home" network till it find in what country it is at? :laugh:

It just goes to the ground station directly or via sat: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_Communications_Addressing_and_Reporting_System

 

EDIT: a few days ago they said there was no data and now there is suddenly... heh

 

EDIT2: According to the following article, the plane could have turned off its transponders to avoid radar, and that they are studying the engine information for aircraft movements to figure out its trajectory: http://www.rediff.com/news/report/missing-plane-flew-on-for-5-hours-with-radio-switched-off/20140313.htm

[mudslag]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/13/us-malaysiaairlines-flight-idUSBREA2701720140313

 

 

Search planes find no sign of missing airliner at spot located by China

 

Search planes found no sign on Thursday of a missing Malaysia Airlines aircraft in an area where satellite images had shown debris, taking the as-yet fruitless hunt into the sixth day.

Adding to the deepening mystery surrounding the fate of the plane and 239 people on board, the Wall Street Journal reported on Thursday that U.S. investigators suspect the aircraft flew for about four hours after reaching its last confirmed location under conditions that remain murky.

 

[FloatingFatMan]

EDIT2: According to the following article, the plane could have turned off its transponders to avoid radar, and that they are studying the engine information for aircraft movements to figure out its trajectory: http://www.rediff.com/news/report/missing-plane-flew-on-for-5-hours-with-radio-switched-off/20140313.htm

 

They shouldn't make this be possible on a passenger airliner... 

[blerk]

I see, right that makes sense. Alright, so riddle me this thread: if the plane has engines that were sending automated data for 5 hours after the last known location, why doesn't the plane itself send some sort of location info (even if incorrect) also?

 

 

ACARS can (and does) provide aircraft position reporting. I don't know how ACARS is set up on this plane, but I would assume that the ACARS information from the engine is being sent to Rolls-Royce. As they have no need for position information (they are only concerned about engine health), I would doubt that the engines would report this information.  

[Livin in a box]

Although Boeing have denied that the plane would have had the specific issue that was with other models (cracking below the fuselage), I still think it's a huge possibility that perhaps there was another issue with it (or maybe Boeing are just simply wrong by denying that this plane would have had problems; if it did, imagine the lawsuits) that has caused major decompression of oxygen in the plane and has eventually caused the incapacitation of the passengers and crew. The pilots tried to turn it around, but left unconscious, therefore flying it back over Malaysia...but with autopilot taking over. It could have then flown on for miles over the Indian Ocean, and explains the possible sighting of it over the Strait.

[Skiver Veteran]

They shouldn't make this be possible on a passenger airliner... 

I would imagine this is probably something to do with the fact that at times, things go wrong and we all know the first step when software goes wrong.... turn it off and on again. 

[Hum]

My question exactly.

 

How can a plane at mid sea send data back to some headquarter miles away without giving out its location? :/

... data automatically downloaded and sent to the ground from the Boeing Co. engines as part of a routine maintenance and monitoring program.

 

I guess the data is only specific to what the engines are doing -- not the whole plane.

 

One thing I wonder, can Boeing tell if the engines were shut down in a normal manner, by the RPMs, slowing down in a controlled way --- or were the engines suddenly stopped, as in a crash or fire ....