Xbox One without

[+mram Subscriber²]

AS with all innovations we lived just fine without it so of course we dont NEED it.  After a long time those things became a need because we got so used to it.  So do you think we shouldnt bring anything new to the table just because right now we dont need it?  Sounds like a pretty crappy future.  I myself have got addicted to the voice commands and auto logins when it sees me and i finally started making good use of gestures to navigate and really only grab my controller when i throw a game in.  Super convenient and I love it but do i NEED it? No.  I sure as hell want it though and at this point i would miss it pretty bad.

 

Would I have bought it without kinect for 100 dollars less? No. Eventually yes but i would have waited a year for games i actually am into.   I have a ps4 but it was a present and its collecting dust for the last few months till infamous is out.

 

You are an example where the technology fits you.  I bought a standalone Kinect for my 360 as well.  Given the choice I would not do it again. 

 

I have no problems with people who say the Kinect is a great fit for them -- however the argument isn't one where the Kinect should exist or not, it's whether or not it should be bundled with no choice to the consumer.  You say you would not buy an XBox One without an Kinect, but at the same time, you could easily make a choice for buying both an XB1 without Kinect, and also buy a Kinect, at the same total price (two separate packages).  You get what you want with no extra cost.  Why do I need to pay for something I don't want??

 

This is why bundling is bad, it removes choice for the consumer.  The new "lowest common denominator" now includes a product that I don't want, which also inflates the total price.

 

As it's been said in this thread before, if the Kinect integrated into entire games portfolio or wasn't anything more than a gimmick for logon, then I'd consider it.  As it stands now I refuse to buy into this strategy. 

[neoadorable]

Don't want to diss Pachter too much, he has a mother too, but this guy shoots his damn mouth too much. Irrelevant...it's his opinion but kinda rude to just say it like that. I love Kinect, and i barely even use it! It just sits there under my TV and says hi to me every time i turn on the X1. I wave back, and we continue on our merry way. And it's sort of comforting that there's always someone watching, i live by myself now you see :rofl:

[strotee]

Devs have had 5+ years to showcase something with motion controls that doesn't seem half-way, or worse, a complete gimmick. I throw motion controls in the same category as 3D: something that's neat at first but not compelling to many.  Having TitanFall not use Kinect at all is sort of a sad and missed opportunity.

[spenser.d]

When I say hated, I was referring to Kinect, not the X1 itself. The general mood of the online community is one of complete disinterest in Kinect. Of course, there are no scientific numbers to remove any doubt, but the mood gets projected as if it is the definitive belief, so you have to accept that.

The X1 has sold great compared to last gen, its just that the ps4 has sold even greater, which makes it seem like the X1 is selling poorly. That's why I said before that we can argue about how much Kinect is worth and how much it may or may not be holding the X1 back, but we dont have all the info to make the decision.

MS is the only ones that can look at the sales figures and try to determine what needs to be done, if anything. They may look at the numbers and not be worried at all, thinking that once more games come out and they are out in more territories, sales will be steady. Maybe they are ok with the ps4 outselling them as long as the X1 is still selling ahead of last gen considering the higher price.

Or maybe they are not and they decide to lower the price just as they launch the console in more regions.

 

I know you were talking about Kinect.  Point is if so many people are actually so against it they wouldn't be buying Xboxes in the first place. But they are. Maybe Microsoft is concerned that they aren't selling as much as Sony, but I doubt it.  They've always bet on the long term and even in the short term, if you take a step back, they're still very successful as is. 

[trooper11]

This is why bundling is bad, it removes choice for the consumer.  The new "lowest common denominator" now includes a product that I don't want, which also inflates the total price.

 

As it's been said in this thread before, if the Kinect integrated into entire games portfolio or wasn't anything more than a gimmick for logon, then I'd consider it.  As it stands now I refuse to buy into this strategy.

MS is screwed either way. Once they unbundle it, it very much dies a quick death. Keep it bundled and some consumers feel betrayed and just drop the platform completely. MS took a risk and it failed for many people online.

MS really wanted people to stop thinking about Kinect as a separate part and just another piece of the platform, which would have negated the idea that this was forced on users. Unfortunately, that did not happen and its still considered an add-on that was just thrown in to the bundle. That pretty much kills MS' chance at keeping Kinect going forward. They might as well kill it if they try to sell it separately, it would save them some money in the long run. Just look at Sony's strategy for plenty of proof.

Bundling works when you can convince the consumer that its not a bundle at all. You do your best to down play the bundled feature/item as a separate piece and you integrate it into your system as much as possible to show that its just another piece of hardware that is part of the system like a disc drive or wireless networking.

Heck, I bet MS would have built Kinect into the X1 itself if there was a tech solution.

[trooper11]

I know you were talking about Kinect.  Point is if so many people are actually so against it they wouldn't be buying Xboxes in the first place. But they are. Maybe Microsoft is concerned that they aren't selling as much as Sony, but I doubt it.  They've always bet on the long term and even in the short term, if you take a step back, they're still very successful as is.

Like I said, who knows what the real number is for or against it. As you pointed out, the X1 has sold well, so obviously there are other variables.

[vcfan]

In the interim, though, Microsoft realised that smartphone and tablet integration is so high that it can build all those features into SmartGlass instead.

never knew they could build a time of flight camera,IR sensor, silicon accelerators,1 jaguar cpu core and 4 DSPs in a smartphone APP.

[Anthony Tosie Veteran]

That's all fine and dandy. But that doesn't take away from the facts I just posted.

You didn't post facts, you just posted statements from them saying they're not going to change. I noted that they've made changes that confront prior statements before, multiple times. I would say that does "take away" from what Microsoft has previously stated.

[compl3x]

You didn't post facts, you just posted statements from them saying they're not going to change. I noted that they've made changes that confront prior statements before, multiple times. I would say that does "take away" from what Microsoft has previously stated.

 

They're trying to sell the X1 now, they'd never come out and say "Oh, btw, we might actually ditch this part of our product in the future." You don't have to know a whole lot about marketing to know telling consumers you might remove a part of your product in the future is a bad idea.

 

 

Anyway. I notice many have failed to address the issue with Kinect being irrelevant. It brings nothing to gaming so why should consumers pay for it? I havent seen a compelling argument from anyone. I dont think anyone knows why we need it.

 

 

There aren't any good arguments for the Kinect, at least not as a gaming peripheral. Sure, voice commands are kind of cool but it's a pretty expensive piece of equipment just for that slight convenience. The Kinect is a cool piece of tech, but in this gamer doesn't inspire a lot of excitement.

 

How many games make use of the Kinect? How many games are in the pipeline which will? A friend who bought an X1 asked me what Kinect games are currently available and what was planned in the future and I struggled to tell him anything interesting he should be looking forward to.

 

[Hedon]

You didn't post facts, you just posted statements from them saying they're not going to change. 

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fact

 

I did post facts. The statements they made are real, actually exist, is known to have happened and are a fact. What you are stating is conjecture and an hypothesis based on previous experience. Your comments can't be taken as factual, unless of course, the company has changed their stance every single time they have claimed something, which is clearly not true.

[Anthony Tosie Veteran]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fact

 

I did post facts. The statements they made are real, actually exist, is known to have happened and are a fact. What you are stating is conjecture and an hypothesis based on previous experience. Your comments can't be taken as factual, unless of course, the company has changed their stance every single time they have claimed something, which is clearly not true.

You're being absurd now. They made claims that cannot be verified at this point in time; claims can be true or untrue. My statements were never prevented as fact -- I figured me beginning my original post with "I think" would be indicative of that. Furthermore, I never said they changed their stance every time they claimed something.

[Hedon]

You're being absurd now. They made claims that cannot be verified at this point in time; claims can be true or untrue. My statements were never prevented as fact -- I figured me beginning my original post with "I think" would be indicative of that. Furthermore, I never said they changed their stance every time they claimed something.

Now you are just spinning. I guess we will just agree to disagree.

[Anthony Tosie Veteran]

Now you are just spinning.

:blink:

[LaP]

Great i might get an XBox One instead of a PS4 after all. We'll see. But i'm certainly not paying 100$ for Kinect.

[Houtei]

I think people really seem to forget the xbox one is being sold as the "All In ONE Entertainment System" not a "Gaming System" had this been a gaming only system and advertised as such i would be with you on kinect being a "bundle" but its not.  I really dont think those extra features would be near as enjoyable without kinect.  Gaming with kinect is just a bonus.

 

Not to mention if you call it a bundle and sell it separately then you lose any support it might have gotten.  Though games havent done anything to cool yet most games do have at least some kind of kinect function and every app i have used has pretty deep kinect interactions.  

 

In the end this is all my opinion because none of us know for sure what MS is doing and at best we are all pulling educated guesses out of our rears and think our view is better than yours.

[LaP]

 

Sure, voice commands are kind of cool but it's a pretty expensive piece of equipment just for that slight convenience. The Kinect is a cool piece of tech, but in this gamer doesn't inspire a lot of excitement.

 

 

 

Voice command might be great for some but it's certainly not the holy grail of media center control. In fact that new harmony kb announced by Logitech looks far more interesting to me.

 

I have an Harmony remote and it does the job perfectly. I push one button and everything is powered on and functional (good input, desired channel, etc). I push one button and it switch to the desired favorite channel. I can also control my PVR with my harmony (recording a show from the TV guide) something that can't be done with the xbox one if i am to believe my friend (could be wrong he is not really techie).

 

Anyway as an harmony owner i don't see the big deal with voice command at all.

[trooper11]

There aren't any good arguments for the Kinect, at least not as a gaming peripheral. Sure, voice commands are kind of cool but it's a pretty expensive piece of equipment just for that slight convenience. The Kinect is a cool piece of tech, but in this gamer doesn't inspire a lot of excitement.

 

How many games make use of the Kinect? How many games are in the pipeline which will? A friend who bought an X1 asked me what Kinect games are currently available and what was planned in the future and I struggled to tell him anything interesting he should be looking forward to.

See, here is another clear example of MS not getting the message out to gamers.

MS has done a lot to distance Kinect from being a solely gaming peripheral. Notice how every event MS did leading up to launch offered very little attention to Kinect itself as a gaming device? MS' goal has clearly been to change the perception of Kinect from being its own gaming device to just being a feature built into the X1, something that worked behind the scenes and added the experiences in various ways. Heck, MS would have probably stopped using the term 'Kinect' at all if it was for the brand recognition it already had.

To me, the impression I get from MS is that they know most developers are not interested in doing a Kinect only title, but many are interesting in using parts of it within their title. That can range from things like the Forza devs using gesture controls to tour around cars or for head tracking in game or just making use of the microphone to offer extensive voice commands.

So if someone bought an X1 expecting Kinect only titles to start showing up in mass, I think they will be disappointed. Of course, you will get Kinect Sports Rivals and I'm sure more casual titles will come. I think the bulk of titles that will make use of Kinect will be standard games that incorporate parts of what Kinect can do.

One problem is that no one credits the use of voice commands to Kinect at all, so if games are using that now more than they use to, that could be thanks to Kinect being around. Plus, some people only seem to know about the voice commands that The X1 uses to control the OS, etc. All the other little features that are made possible via Kinect just aren't brought up in a useful way by MS.

 

Great i might get an XBox One instead of a PS4 after all. We'll see. But i'm certainly not paying 100$ for Kinect.

Would you pay $0?

You could see a scenario where MS drops the price without dropping Kinect.

 

Voice command might be great for some but it's certainly not the holy grail of media center control. In fact that new harmony kb announced by Logitech looks far more interesting to me.

 

I have an Harmony remote and it does the job perfectly. I push one button and everything is powered on and functional (good input, desired channel, etc). I push one button and it switch to the desired favorite channel. I can also control my PVR with my harmony (recording a show from the TV guide) something that can't be done with the xbox one if i am to believe my friend (could be wrong he is not really techie).

 

Anyway as an harmony owner i don't see the big deal with voice command at all.

As a harmony owner myself, I do see the big deal with voice commands (I don't use my X1 for TV since I do not have any interest in a dvr). They compliment each other on both my X1 and my htpc (using MB3 along with my original Kinect). Not to mention the IR blasting feature that Kinect offers, which allows alot more flexibility in device placement. MS just needs to expand the supported devices list. But I also see that some people aren't interested at all, and that's cool.

[PGHammer]

Many also called gaming consoles irrelevant due to rise of tablets/phones until PS4/XboxOne sales brought them back into reality. Your post hits pretty much all questions such as why do we need consoles when we can just Airplay iPad games and etc.

Also, unlike Move, a lot of the Kinect functionality has exactly nit to do with what developers do or NOT do, because it actually is usable without games at all.  Unlike XB360 (where Kinect was a separate add-on) Kinect was included with XB1 for a specific reason - it is part of the core product.  That is why I disagree with Pachter about the relevance of Kinect.

 

I have no animus concerning either XB1 or PS4 - as I own neither one.  However, I would be more likely to purchase XB1 than PS4 primarily because of two XB1 features - Kinect (and the non-gaming side of Kinect in particular) and the HDMI-inline connectivity.  Kinect would actually be useful for me outside of gaming for the most part,  because of how useful it is as a straightforward navigation tool around the XB1 dashboard.   While the odds are nearly nil that I would use certain XB1 features, simply due to already using other hardware for those features, other features, in contrast, will get MORE use because I can navigate using Kinect - not the controller or a separate remote.  The video issues aren't likely to be used because I own a Tivo Premiere - which the XB1 would be connected inline with.  (The PS4 does not support inline HDMI - which is a major minus.)

 

Pachter's comment is basically showing his tunnel-vision regarding what XB1 is, and therefore, the utility and relevance of Kinect.

[+mram Subscriber²]

Also, unlike Move, a lot of the Kinect functionality has exactly nit to do with what developers do or NOT do, because it actually is usable without games at all.  Unlike XB360 (where Kinect was a separate add-on) Kinect was included with XB1 for a specific reason - it is part of the core product.  That is why I disagree with Pachter about the relevance of Kinect.

 

That's an incorrect statement.  The Kinect is not part of the core product, it is bundled with the core product.  The proof is in the MS admittance that you can in fact run the XBox One without even having the Kinect attached.

 

https://www.neowin.net/news/microsoft-xbox-one-can-still-work-without-kinect-sensor-connected

 

Additionally, developers are required to incorporate Kinect API usage into their products - at the minimum, voice overlay - which has been known to stall product-to-market.  There really is no "win" here.

[Houtei]

That's an incorrect statement.  The Kinect is not part of the core product, it is bundled with the core product.  The proof is in the MS admittance that you can in fact run the XBox One without even having the Kinect attached.

 

https://www.neowin.net/news/microsoft-xbox-one-can-still-work-without-kinect-sensor-connected

 

Additionally, developers are required to incorporate Kinect API usage into their products - at the minimum, voice overlay - which has been known to stall product-to-market.  There really is no "win" here.

My xbox runs without the controller too and yet its still part of the core product... so weird!  I realize this is stupid but sometimes you have to counter stupid with stupid.  

 

What product out there has been delayed by kinect apis?  Kinda like sony forcing games to use the sixaxis in some way on the ps3? That wasnt needed at all and im sure caused the controller to cost more.

[trooper11]

That's an incorrect statement.  The Kinect is not part of the core product, it is bundled with the core product.  The proof is in the MS admittance that you can in fact run the XBox One without even having the Kinect attached.

 

https://www.neowin.net/news/microsoft-xbox-one-can-still-work-without-kinect-sensor-connected

 

Additionally, developers are required to incorporate Kinect API usage into their products - at the minimum, voice overlay - which has been known to stall product-to-market.  There really is no "win" here.

That is not incorrect. Kinect is part of the core product. MS has made that perfectly clear since day one. Its deeply integrated into the OS. Removing it would obviously require some OS functions to be changed.

Kinect is to be treated like the standard controller or say adding wireless networking to the console is. The fact that you can unplug it does not change that fact.

As far as developers being required to use Kinect, I hadn't heard that, where did you see that point made?

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

My xbox runs without the controller too and yet its still part of the core product... so weird!  I realize this is stupid but sometimes you have to counter stupid with stupid.  

 

What product out there has been delayed by kinect apis?  Kinda like sony forcing games to use the sixaxis in some way on the ps3? That wasnt needed at all and im sure caused the controller to cost more.

 

That's not what he means. MS had a checklist for games i.e every game must be HD, every game must have 1000 GS, every XBLA must have a demo etc. I didn't know about the Kinect API requirement but interesting to know.

 

Sixaxis wasn't forced into games, barely any used it. They probably nudged 1st party to do it. Didn't make the controller more expensive either. DS3 was/is same price it ever was.

[+mram Subscriber²]

My xbox runs without the controller too and yet its still part of the core product... so weird!  I realize this is stupid but sometimes you have to counter stupid with stupid.  

 

What product out there has been delayed by kinect apis?  Kinda like sony forcing games to use the sixaxis in some way on the ps3? That wasnt needed at all and im sure caused the controller to cost more.

 

You need the controller to play any games.  You know, the core product.  Edit:  The Kinect is a controller too, it's not a base-unit necessity (see link from xbox below)

 

You can use the Kinect sensor in the same way you did with the XBox360 - for the games that need it. 

 

Delays: https://www.neowin.net/news/kinect-to-blame-for-delay-to-bbc-iplayer-app-for-xbox-one-insider-claims (just a quick search)

 

That is not incorrect. Kinect is part of the core product. MS has made that perfectly clear since day one. Its deeply integrated into the OS. Removing it would obviously require some OS functions to be changed.

Kinect is to be treated like the standard controller or say adding wireless networking to the console is. The fact that you can unplug it does not change that fact.

As far as developers being required to use Kinect, I hadn't heard that, where did you see that point made?

 

When someone adds wireless, or increments disk space over time, and doesn't inflate the base costs of the unit, that's acceptable bundling, if anything it's "modernization" of the product over time.  When two products were sold separately suddenly get merged together with no choice to the consumer, as well as inflating the overall price of the unit by exactly the same amount, that's unfair.  I can accept that a Kinect is to be treated like a controller, but you'd be just as frustrated as I am if the Xbox One came with a controller, a Kinect, and 3 extra wireless controllers, for a mere $180 more in price.  The sell?  "Having four controllers enhances the family experience."

 

Now I know you can immediately say that's ridiculous, but that's not the point.  The point is for some they'll say that's awesome.  Others, like me, will say "I just don't need that bundle, please remove it."  It is money spent on something that really could've been spent on 3-4 games, which in turn would drive more sales of the unit.

 

As I've said before, Microsoft is no stranger to bundling.  If you notice, they are being extremely painfully tight with their wording on the product.

 

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-one/get-the-facts

 

Heck even on Microsoft's page they label the Kinect as "a controller" and "Xbox One does not require a Kinect to be plugged in for the system to function".  If the Kinect were truly integrated, they wouldn't separate these items. 

 

Now, just to clarify here, there are people who are taking this to near-religious levels of argument.  I don't think this deserves it.  I like the Kinect, but it's not for me.  It clearly is awesome for others.  Great!  But Microsoft should've never bundled it.  They didn't compel developers to really use it (current games and forecasted games do not show a significant % of games requiring or using Kinect), and if people want to spend $100 for ease of login, voice control, that's great too!  Just don't make the rest of us do that.  That's the point of this whole thread.

[BajiRav]

You need the controller to play any games. You know, the core product. Edit: The Kinect is a controller too, it's not a base-unit necessity (see link from xbox below)

You can use the Kinect sensor in the same way you did with the XBox360 - for the games that need it.

Delays: https://www.neowin.net/news/kinect-to-blame-for-delay-to-bbc-iplayer-app-for-xbox-one-insider-claims (just a quick search)

When someone adds wireless, or increments disk space over time, and doesn't inflate the base costs of the unit, that's acceptable bundling, if anything it's "modernization" of the product over time. When two products were sold separately suddenly get merged together with no choice to the consumer, as well as inflating the overall price of the unit by exactly the same amount, that's unfair. I can accept that a Kinect is to be treated like a controller, but you'd be just as frustrated as I am if the Xbox One came with a controller, a Kinect, and 3 extra wireless controllers, for a mere $180 more in price. The sell? "Having four controllers enhances the family experience."

Now I know you can immediately say that's ridiculous, but that's not the point. The point is for some they'll say that's awesome. Others, like me, will say "I just don't need that bundle, please remove it." It is money spent on something that really could've been spent on 3-4 games, which in turn would drive more sales of the unit.

As I've said before, Microsoft is no stranger to bundling. If you notice, they are being extremely painfully tight with their wording on the product.

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-one/get-the-facts

Heck even on Microsoft's page they label the Kinect as "a controller" and "Xbox One does not require a Kinect to be plugged in for the system to function". If the Kinect were truly integrated, they wouldn't separate these items.

Now, just to clarify here, there are people who are taking this to near-religious levels of argument. I don't think this deserves it. I like the Kinect, but it's not for me. It clearly is awesome for others. Great! But Microsoft should've never bundled it. They didn't compel developers to really use it (current games and forecasted games do not show a significant % of games requiring or using Kinect), and if people want to spend $100 for ease of login, voice control, that's great too! Just don't make the rest of us do that. That's the point of this whole thread.

I am pretty sure they added all that info after the internet went bat ###### crazy post E3-2013

[neoadorable]

Yes, before Kinect was explicitly required. They were planning on X1 not even working without it - i.e it had to be plugged in and active.

 

I don't expect anyone to remember heh heh but used to be a rabid anti-Kinect person. Now i love it, and i don't even use it except for the very occasional voice command and even rarer gesture control (find those ridiculous, especially since living by myself). Everyone's different, Kinect literally had me at "hi". Having X1 say hi to you every time is really touching and cute to me, i love it. I really do wave back.

 

Totally understand people who object, and the price differential is a major, major consideration. But these are passion products, from talking to MS and by common sense, at this point i don't think either them or Sony expect the average person to buy a device. They want the enthusiasts to forge the way - and there's tens of millions of us out there these days, so that's a big install base.

 

Just leave Kinect alone everyone! :rolleyes: