Xbox One: Microsoft Claims that Cloud Computing Can Provide Power of 3 Xbox Ones, 32 Xbox 360s

[JonnyLH]

I don't know how any body can say this is just PR after many discussions and even a demo which showed how it can benefit games. Dedicating servers to off-loading CPU tasks off the box will allow for better graphical games and having 3x theoretical power for X1's in each console is massive. I'm not sure how they can dedicate that much.

 

Anyone who says it's just PR or 'lies' is just in denial or hasn't got much knowledge in the area to understand how it is useful. I can't wait until developers start taking full advantage of it and incorporate it into games rather than just using it as a hosting for game servers.

 

This has been talked about infinitely with specific facts and examples, why there still is people who still don't get the theory about this I really don't understand.

[0nyX]

Because "the cloud" and its connection to X1 is a more sophisticated version of what:

 

• The 32x was for Mega Drive (Genesis)
• The Sega CD was for Mega Drive (Genesis)
• The M2 was for 3DO
• The 64DD was for the N64
• The "Turbo" button was on my old Pentium (in front of the case)

[Polonium]

I don't know how any body can say this is just PR after many discussions and even a demo which showed how it can benefit games. Dedicating servers to off-loading CPU tasks off the box will allow for better graphical games and having 3x theoretical power for X1's in each console is massive. I'm not sure how they can dedicate that much.

Anyone who says it's just PR or 'lies' is just in denial or hasn't got much knowledge in the area to understand how it is useful. I can't wait until developers start taking full advantage of it and incorporate it into games rather than just using it as a hosting for game servers.

This has been talked about infinitely with specific facts and examples, why there still is people who still don't get the theory about this I really don't understand.

I fear you'll be waiting a long time to see any graphical enhancements to xo games. Sorry but that's how I feel

[Showan]

Catchphrases of next/now gen...

 

Indie(s)

Cloud.

 

(Insert whatever you want here)

 

Does not matter if it's a "PR BUZZWORD"...  What matters is,  "Is this real and happening or not"?  

 

Indie(s) yep real making games and all

 

Cloud services..  Drivatars (no matter how you try and downplay it) , you are racing against other real people racers.  No "Select Difficulty" no rubber banding.  Racing vs real people.

 

Titanfall,the AI,  all the wildlife (monsters and such), ships jumping in and out of orbit all done server side.  not locally 

[JonnyLH]

I fear you'll be waiting a long time to see any graphical enhancements to xo games. Sorry but that's how I feel

This for me is the big question, the developer integration and if it will venture into the 3rd party titles and not necessarily first party.  

[Polonium]

This for me is the big question, the developer integration and if it will venture into the 3rd party titles and not necessarily first party.

Not just that either... I honestly don't think the cloud is capable of doing what the PR people of Microsoft claim.

In a test environment with little to no latency, of course. Now go live across the globe and do it. Not quite as easy then. Many factors to consider and crappy isps that just want to throttle connections etc.

In an ideal world it would work. We don't live on that world though.

[Noir Angel]

With the same latency and load times?

[JonnyLH]

Not just that either... I honestly don't think the cloud is capable of doing what the PR people of Microsoft claim.

In a test environment with little to no latency, of course. Now go live across the globe and do it. Not quite as easy then. Many factors to consider and crappy isps that just want to throttle connections etc.

In an ideal world it would work. We don't live on that world though.

I explained this in the other demo thread but I will say this again. On average I get 20-30ms to both EU servers on Titanfall. If you refer to the physics demo, the calculations are being streamed from the server to the box. If this was running on my X1, say I was getting 20ms which is round-trip, adding around 10ms (which is rather high) for the actual server calculations will result in the total delay of the request taking 30ms. That's 0.03 of a second until the ball in the demo hits the building, and the results of the off-loaded server calculations show up on screen. Which is, no issue and totally feasible.

 

There's many things in games which would not be effected at all by being off-loaded. Even particle effects could be easily offloaded depending they weren't on the player itself.

[Polonium]

Its not all about you though is it? The world has other people in it that won't get those ping times.

[JonnyLH]

Its not all about you though is it? The world has other people in it that won't get those ping times.

My pings are rather high. Even if you was getting 100ms (UK to US) that's still around 0.11 of a second. Still, not a issue. There's DCs everywhere, you're not going to get a higher than 50ms really.

[trooper11]

Because "the cloud" and its connection to X1 is a more sophisticated version of what:

• The 32x was for Mega Drive (Genesis)
• The Sega CD was for Mega Drive (Genesis)
• The M2 was for 3DO
• The 64DD was for the N64
• The "Turbo" button was on my old Pentium (in front of the case)

You really think that dedicated servers are on the level of a cd add-on for the mega drive?

We are talking about tech that is not experimental or tied to a single console. The only reason it would be labeled this way is because MS has pushed it as a feature of the platform. That feature exists on other platforms too. MS has just done things to make it more useful on the X1 such as giving developers access for free and building the X1 to make interacting with those servers as painless as possible.

 

Not just that either... I honestly don't think the cloud is capable of doing what the PR people of Microsoft claim.

In a test environment with little to no latency, of course. Now go live across the globe and do it. Not quite as easy then. Many factors to consider and crappy isps that just want to throttle connections etc.

In an ideal world it would work. We don't live on that world though.

You could be right, but only time will tell.

It's also possible that this is a long term program. If internet connection improvements across the globe continue, that means a system like this becomes better and better as time goes on. The Playstation Now program may just be streaming games to devices, but it will also have to deal with the varied level of connection quality around the world.

There is no magic wand that MS or Sony can use to fix internet connection issues, but if these things constantly improve, both companies will see their cloud efforts improve without doing anything themselves.

[Polonium]

@jonny I didn't realise you were an engineer working on this? ;-)

[JonnyLH]

I didn't realise you were an engineer working on this? ;-)

I'm actually a network engineer who does a lot of software engineering for an ISP in the UK. I have knowledge of Azure since we use parts at work, so I feel I have quite a good background to comfortably discuss this.

 

The topic should be not whether it's possible and whether its 'PR LIEZ' but more-so when its properly going to be utilised.

[Polonium]

You could be right, but only time will tell.

It's also possible that this is a long term program. If internet connection improvements across the globe continue, that means a system like this becomes better and better as time goes on. The Playstation Now program may just be streaming games to devices, but it will also have to deal with the varied level of connection quality around the world.

There is no magic wand that MS or Sony can use to fix internet connection issues, but if these things constantly improve, both companies will see their cloud efforts improve without doing anything themselves.

I agree and I hope it does help. Just wish people would stop believing that this is the answer to the under powered Xbox and it will somehow close that gap.

That can't and won't happen

I'm actually a network engineer who does a lot of software engineering for an ISP in the UK. I have a large knowledge of Azure since we use parts at work, so I feel I have quite a good background to comfortably discuss this.

The topic should be not whether it's possible and whether its 'PR LIEZ' but more-so when its properly going to be utilised.

Ha ha no way! My comment was tongue in cheek and I hope it was taken that way.

I also have a few years of network experience so appreciate the conversation. Its always good to hear from others in the same line of work

[JonnyLH]

I agree and I hope it does help. Just wish people would stop believing that this is the answer to the under powered Xbox and it will somehow close that gap.

That can't and won't happen

Totally depends on context. You can't make up for the lack of ROPs and some limitations the memory set-up provides; but off-loading CPU tasks can become an advantage due to the CPU thread in the game engine not taking as long. This would result in more time being given to the GPU/CPU which could result in better graphics or a smoother frame-rate (which the BUILD demo clearly shows).

[Polonium]

Totally depends on context. You can't make up for the lack of ROPs and some limitations the memory set-up provides; but off-loading CPU tasks can become an advantage due to the CPU thread in the game engine not taking as long. This would result in more time being given to the GPU/CPU which could result in better graphics or a smoother frame-rate (which the BUILD demo clearly shows).

And at the same time the ps4 does it, gap stays very much as it is.

That's the point I was making. Microsoft have launched a console that isn't really aimed at games and high end (console) graphics. They have released a media hub.

The cloud PR coming from MS is to make people think that the Xbox can close the gap on its competition, that's its somehow unique to them.

We all know it's not.

[JonnyLH]

Ha ha no way! My comment was tongue in cheek and I hope it was taken that way.

I also have a few years of network experience so appreciate the conversation. Its always good to hear from others in the same line of work

Haha no its is fine, I hate the 'I do this and do that' on forums but I felt like I had to say. The topic subject when looked into beyond the term 'cloud' becomes quite technical and with lots of people simply throwing the idea out and regarding it as lies, I like to input the theoretical reasoning for why it could help.  

[trooper11]

I agree and I hope it does help. Just wish people would stop believing that this is the answer to the under powered Xbox and it will somehow close that gap.

That can't and won't happen

Who is saying that exactly? I haven't seen that in this thread or anywhere around here frankly. I have no doubt you can find someone that thinks that because they are misinformed, but that has never been a true statement.

I just wish talking about the cloud wasn't so hostile. As wrong as it is to claim it can fix all problems, it just seems wrong to dismiss it completely.

The cloud offers a way to extend the performance of the X1 in a specific way, yes, but that has nothing to do with the gap between the consoles in regards to the gpu. In theory, if you offload a few things that the cpu would have to do, then you free up the local cpu to do more things. How much of an impact that has on a game visually is unknown, but I doubt it would be much. It's impact would be more felt with things like AI. I suppose that might result in better frame rates, but I'm not a game designer, so I don't know what impact things like AI have on the frame rate.

[Polonium]

Haha no its is fine, I hate the 'I do this and do that' on forums but I felt like I had to say. The topic subject when looked into beyond the term 'cloud' becomes quite technical and with lots of people simply throwing the idea out and regarding it as lies, I like to input the theoretical reasoning for why it could help.

Absolutely no question that it could help.. I agree with you there. Its a case of will it be implemented so that it does

Who is saying that exactly? I haven't seen that in this thread or anywhere around here frankly. I have no doubt you can find someone that thinks that because they are misinformed, but that has never been a true statement.

I just wish talking about the cloud wasn't so hostile. As wrong as it is to claim it can fix all problems, it just seems wrong to dismiss it completely.

The cloud offers a way to extend the performance of the X1 in a specific way, yes, but that has nothing to do with the gap between the consoles in regards to the gpu. In theory, if you offload a few things that the cpu would have to do, then you free up the local cpu to do more things. How much of an impact that has on a game visually is unknown, but I doubt it would be much. It's impact would be more felt with things like AI. I suppose that might result in better frame rates, but I'm not a game designer, so I don't know what impact things like AI have on the frame rate.

Just the general nonsense you read across gaming sites. Not here or not that I've seen. Should have stated that.

I agree it shouldn't be dismissed though

[JonnyLH]

And at the same time the ps4 does it, gap stays very much as it is.

That's the point I was making. Microsoft have launched a console that isn't really aimed at games and high end (console) graphics. They have released a media hub.

The cloud PR coming from MS is to make people think that the Xbox can close the gap on its competition, that's its somehow unique to them.

We all know it's not.

With the PS4 the most performance gains through the cycle is moving computing processes like particle effects, physics and other CPU intensive tasks to GPGPU. This has yet to be properly utilised, Infamous SS touched into this with its particle effects. 

 

You could see similar things with off-loading on the cloud but it's never been used in context of gaming. I'm interested how it pans out. It won't ever help local performance gains but you could see games on the X1 having some nuts features. For example, imagine in a game of Halo 5 where is everything is destructible.

[Polonium]

Oh I'm certainly intrigued by the prospect of using cloud computing in console games. The geeky techy comes out in me when this happens

[trooper11]

That's the point I was making. Microsoft have launched a console that isn't really aimed at games and high end (console) graphics. They have released a media hub.

The cloud PR coming from MS is to make people think that the Xbox can close the gap on its competition, that's its somehow unique to them.

We all know it's not.

Not really aimed at games? Again, this all goes back to pr. MS obviously failed to properly weigh how much they mentioned media uses with game uses. Both consoles can be media hubs and both can play games. Why else would Sony be investing in non-gaming features and content if the ps4 was not also a media hub? Why else would MS invest so much in game features and content if the X1 was not also a gaming system?

As much as I like my ps4, calling it high end graphics is a little much. I noticed you put (console) in there just to point out that in fact, its not high end graphics. The ps4 gpu is mid range, no way around that. The X1 is entry-mid range, no way around that either.

As far as the cloud goes, the only unique parts to MS and the X1 is:

1. Free access for developers

2. X1 hardware meant to make access dedicated servers as efficient as possible.

Anyone could do what MS is doing, but they aren't yet. Sony could come out tomorrow and offer developers free access to Rackspace servers. Valve could come out tomorrow and offer free access to servers as well.

So the only reason MS could justify saying it is a feature of the X1 platform is because of that. If that changes, well then its no longer of any value in that respect.

[Polonium]

The ps4 does bugger all in terms of media really.

Maybe a little harsh to say it's not a games machine but I think you know where I was coming from. To put an entry level GPU in a games console isnt a wise move really.

Yeah, the high end comment was more contextual in terms of from last gen. The difference is very much like a high end GPU :-)

[JonnyLH]

The ps4 does bugger all in terms of media really.

Maybe a little harsh to say it's not a games machine but I think you know where I was coming from. To put an entry level GPU in a games console isnt a wise move really.

Yeah, the high end comment was more contextual in terms of from last gen. The difference is very much like a high end GPU :-)

I'd love to know why MS decided on putting the eSRAM on silicon rather than a separate chip. If this wasn't decided and that space was used for GPU, you'd be looking at a box which has a GPU at titan specs with the amount of silicon they have.

[Polonium]

It certainly is a strange decision.