PC Protection During Thunderstorm Season

[sava700]

Hawkman is correct.  Fear of unclean power is unfounded; how the naive are easily manipulated by lies.  Suspect lies because the claim was made without numbers.

 

I'm afraid he and you are slightly incorrect, here is a direct quote for what I'm trying to say on another site related to the same topic. It explains its pretty good if I say so. As stated below unclean power is a real threat and when you look at the summer period coming up soon for those in the USA you now have very serious power draws for AC usage. I've yet to see a single server in any data center NOT on any type of uninterrupted power supply or APC/UPS unit. As for me saying APC over and over...I'm just referencing the brand for the item not really trying to advertise anything but I do think they are the best on the market.

 

 

When I moved a few months ago the guy who installed my internet said I should get a UPS for my computer. He brought up 3 great points:

1: Why drop $3000+ on a computer and only spend $5 on a surge protector to keep it safe?

2: Power strips only have 3 "fuses" (if you will) that protect your computer. Once those are burnt up you have nothing protecting your PC.

3: Surge protectors only protect your computer from over voltage, but it won't protect your computer from being under volted.

The third point is what really stood out for me. He said the neighborhood I'd been living in for two years had power problems. At that point a light bulb went off in my head and I realized how many RMAs I'd been through in the last two years.

He said he worked for a major company and they kept having weird little issues. They dropped a ton of cash to figure out what was wrong and it was linked back to the systems not getting enough juice.

Which brings me to my next point, not all UPS' are created equal. You will want to look for a UPS with AVR (Automatic Voltage Regulation). AVR is (explanation from apc.com) "Automatically corrects low and high voltage conditions, allowing you to work through brownouts and over voltages without discharging the battery. This saves battery life, increases uptime, and improves your productivity." Basically it scrubs your power, fills in when there is a loss and lowers volts if they are too high so you end up with the perfect amount of power all the time.

Sadly not all UPS' have this feature. Make sure you look for it. Companies have been putting out lower end models without APC that look just like the models that have APC. Do your homework and you should be fine.

[bikeman25]

Would my old CyberPower AVR 700 with new battery be compatible with Windows 8.0 and 8.1 64bit?  Got it when I had XP machine, it's only rated up to 300 watts though, so might be too small for this PC, 300Watt Power supply and 20 LED monitor.  

[westom]

... here is a direct quote for what I'm trying to say on another site related to the same topic. It explains its pretty good if I say so. As stated below unclean power is a real threat and when you look at the summer period coming up soon for those in the USA you now have very serious power draws for AC usage. I've yet to see a single server in any data center NOT on any type of uninterrupted power supply or APC/UPS unit.

Because they need protection from a completely different and unrelated anomaly (blackout), then you know it does surge protection?  Observation without first learning underlying science and numbers is classic junk science reasoning.  Same myths also say power cycling incandescent bulbs causes bulb failure.  That popular myth is also exposed by numbers.  Junk science is created by knowledge based in observation; not by learning how things work; and without spec numbers.

 

If APC is so good, then explain why APC announced some products are so unsafe?   Schneider Electric bought them.  Then discovered these 'so called' reliable products have been creating house fires.  How does that coincide with an assumption of APC quality?

 

In facilities that cannot have damage, that APC is not used.  Instead products from far more reliable and honest companies are found - including Siemens, ABB, Polyphaser, General Electric, Square D, Ditek, Intermatic, Cutler-Hammer, Keison, and Leviton to name but a few.  Posted previously are numbers for why these are effective.  Specifications that say it even protects from direct lightning strikes.  Does not fail.  And have what every effective solution must have: a dedicated wire for the low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to earth ground.  Where is that low impedance connection in an APC or equivalent high profit product?

 

Why do I discuss concepts such as impedance, joules, amperes, and the *art* of protection (single point earth ground)?  These concepts were well proven and relevant long before an IBM PC even existed.  Somehow you know that is wrong because you observed APC equivalent products in some venues?

 

Now, if you know otherwise, then post spec numbers that demonstrate knowledge. I saw someone with halo over his head.  Does that prove I saw a newly Sainted Pope?  Please do not use observation combined with speculation to deny over 100 years of well proven science.  An APC UPS is often temporary and 'dirtiest' power during blackouts.  Why is that also surge protection?

 

Let?s add some facts to your posted quote. Point 2: Those three fuses do no hardware protection.  Fuses exist so that a grossly undersized protector does not cause a house fire.  To disconnect protector parts as fast as possible.  And leave surges connected to a computer.  Surges too tiny to destroy a computer may also blow those protector fuses.  That gets the na?ve to use observation, ?My protector sacrificed itself to save my computer.?  Reality.  Internal protection saved the computer from a tiny surge that easily destroyed a grossly undersized and very expensive protector.  Please learn what fuses really do - protect human life from a grossly undersized protector.

 

Point 3: undervoltages do not damage electronics.  As was required even by international design standards long before the IBM PC existed.  Normal voltage for any computer is even when incandescent bulbs dim to 40% intensity (How often do your lights dim that much?).  If voltage drops farther, than computers power off without hardware damage. Only damage might be lost data that was was not saved to disk.  Design standards even require 'no damage' from undervoltages.

 

Undervoltage is potentially harmful to motorized appliances.  Myths and hearsay invent fears because a refrigerator is at risk.  If undervoltages exist, a UPS must be on the refrigerator, furnace, air conditioner, and dishwasher.  Undervoltage is only unjustified fear when hearsay replaces facts with numbers.

 

And finally price. Point 1:  take a $3 power strip.  Add some ten cent protector parts.  Sell it for $30.  Or Monster sold equivalent products for over $100.  Because so many assume price proves quality.  Only numeric specs prove quality.  Price is how the na?ve get scammed.  Something equivalent to that $100 Monster protector also sold in WalMart for $10.

 

Best protection, also found in facilities that cannot have damage, costs a homeowner about $1 per protected appliance.  That much less expensive solution has numbers that claim protection from direct lightning strikes. Show me the APC that protects from direct lightning strikes.

 

Numerous paragraphs loaded with technical numbers and electrical concepts that any layman can comprehend.  And no hearsay.  How often do your bulbs dim to 50% intensity?  Then do not cure symptoms with a UPS (the myth).  Fix what may be a major human safety wiring problem (a reality).

 

Meanwhile, the OP and other are strongly encouraged to learn what really does protect all appliances.

[snaphat (Myles Landwehr) Member]

Nobody said all or nothing. Protectors adjacent to appliances may even make appliance damage easier. 

From what I gather, you've been arguing that surge protection mechanisms other than a full ground protector are mostly useless because they aren't adequate for a 20Kamp hit. Is that not the case? I'm also not sure what you are referring to when you say protectors damage appliances.

 

And are mostly useless if not used in conjunction with properly earthed, service entrance protection.  Industry standards even put numbers to it.  Service entrance protection can do 99.5% to 99.9% of the protection.  That APC might do an additional 0.2%.  Nobody is saying protection is 100%.  Just that a best solution is also less expensive, protects from all types of surges, and is the only solution for a type of surge that typically does damage.

 

Fuses do not do 'that' protection for a long list of reasons.  Surges do damage in microseconds.  Fuses (and circuit breakers) take milliseconds or longer to trip.  Fuses disconnect power from appliances AFTER damage has occurred.  So that damage and a resulting fire does not threaten human life.  Fuse is for human protection.  Service entrance protection (ie a low impedance, less than 10 foot connection) is for transistor protection.

 

Maybe 300 consecutive surges could occur before a breaker even thought about tripping.  Breakers (and fuses) trip long after damage has happened - to avert fire and to protect humans.

It doesn't matter if the fuses and the breakers take longer to trip. You need to look at the let-through-current characteristics for the devices and amperage squared second A^2*t ratings. It's not like current limiting fuses don't exist. Even non-current limiting fuses have a practical limits on let-through-current (though you'd never see it listed). Similarly, primary and secondary surge arresters before your home have let-through-voltage limits. These are all non-linear characteristics though and depend on the induced current on the line. As I said before, there is no reason to treat this as if you seeing currents of 20Kamps on your in-line. Typical lightning strikes give about 5Kamps and you need to consider that the protection mechanisms in place before your home are going to limit the noise you actually see from a strike. Sure, your SPD isn't going to help much if you see a 20K bolt hitting it directly, but that's really not a fair look at this subject.

[westom]

From what I gather, you've been arguing that surge protection mechanisms other than a full ground protector are mostly useless because they aren't adequate for a 20Kamp hit. Is that not the case? I'm also not sure what you are referring to when you say protectors damage appliances.

 

It doesn't matter if the fuses and the breakers take longer to trip. ...

 

Two completely different devices are confused - a protector and protection.  Both are components of a 'system'.

 

Simple science is a protector sized to even conduct multiple lightning strikes - and remain functional.  To safely conduct 20,000 amps or larger surges, a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. And properly earthed.  None of that discusses energy dissipation.

 

Next paragraphs are boring technicals.  For most readers, a last paragraph is relevant.

 

"Art" is the protection - what harmlessly absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules.  An effective protector is only a connecting device - only does what wire would do better. Effective protection is about where energy dissipates.  Each 'system' device is defined by different numbers.

 

Previously posted was why that completely different device, also called a protector, can give a surge more potentially destructive paths. Can even compromise protection already inside a computer. 

 

For example, APC has a 330 let-through voltage.  Maybe a 5000 volt surge on a hot (black) wire is approaching a computer (due to no properly earthed 'whole house' protector).  That means 5000 volts is on an incoming black wire, and 4670 volts is connected to a neutral (white) and safety ground (green) wire.

  A protector does limit voltage to 330 volts, as assumed.  Confused is what that number measures. This 'mode' concept is beyond what laymen need know.  Since the example demonstrates how a 330 volt protector leaves 4670 volts or more connected to adjacent appliances.

 

Also confused is an I squared T rule.  Obvious from a previous post is why that rule does not apply when destructive transients are done in microseconds.  And that voltage increases as necessary to continue conducting through any blown fuse or circuit breaker.  Somehow a transient that cannot be stopped by three miles of sky will be blocked by a millimeters gap? Of course not.

 

Apparently 'primary' and 'secondary' protection is also misunderstood. Each protection layer is defined by what absorbs energy.  'Secondary' protection layer is at the service entrance.   'Primary' protection is provided by the utility.  A protector never defines a protection layer (as so many assume due to advertising).  A power strip is, at best, only part of the 'secondary' protection layer.  Since that protector absorbs near zero energy.  'Secondary' protection layer is defined by what harmlessly absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. Again, any recommendation for protection always says where energy dissipates.

 

 It should be obvious from a previous post that fuses cannot do protection.  Fuses take milliseconds to blow AND still remain conductive until the surge current and all 'follow through' currents terminate.  'Follow-through' current is another parameter essential to understanding protection. Another reason why a fuse may not do surge protection. Any recommended fuse must explain how a milliameters gap can block that surge.

 

Important parameters such as wire impedance, equipotential, normal and longitudinal currents, behavior of a current source, and where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate must be understood.  Protection is often misunderstood when these electrical concepts are unappreciated.  However, these compromising parameters are solved by earthing - ie service entrance protection.

 

Destructive surges are typically 20,000 amps.  Some papers cite even higher numbers.  Install protection so that a rare and more powerful 100,000 amp surge even causes no damage.  A 5,000 amp number confuses a minimal number only for human safety with what is required to protect electronics.  A 5,000 amp protector may be too small for transistor protection but large enough to not cause a house fire.  As noted previously, spend tens of times less money for a sufficiently sized 50,000 amps protector.  So that all typically destructive surges cause no damage even to a protector.  So that a protector remains functional 20 years later.

 

Please appreciate that that you have confused what let-through voltage measures.  And have ignored other parameter that say why a fuse is all but useless for surge protection.  Even if it does trip, a fuse still remains conductive long after the surge completes.  Millimeter gaps in a fuse (or switch) will never stop what three miles of sky could not.

 

OP and others are strongly encouraged to learn why fuses, a UPS, and plug-in protector do not even claim to protect from destructive surges.  And why a tens of times less expensive and properly earthed service entrance protection is essential.  Every useful recommendation always says where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate.  Damning numbers say why a protector without essential earthing is ineffective.  Only component that must always exist in every protection system is a low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth ground.  Since effective protection always says where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.  How does a fuse absorb hundreds of thousands of joules?

[T3X4S]

I have concluded that westom and snaphat know more than me - and I will now direct all power-related questions to them, just like network questions should be handled by BudMan

[snaphat (Myles Landwehr) Member]

Two completely different devices are confused - a protector and protection.  Both are components of a 'system'.

...

Please appreciate that that you have confused what let-through voltage measures.  And have ignored other parameter that say why a fuse is all but useless for surge protection.  Even if it does trip, a fuse still remains conductive long after the surge completes.  Millimeter gaps in a fuse (or switch) will never stop what three miles of sky could not.

:rolleyes: Please stop with the rhetoric about how folks are confused here. There's simply no need for it. I haven't confused anything. Moreover, it is worth noting that I've used two terms: let-through-voltage (in discussion of arresters) and let-through-current (in discussion of fuses).

 

Apparently 'primary' and 'secondary' protection is also misunderstood. Each protection layer is defined by what absorbs energy.  'Secondary' protection layer is at the service entrance.   'Primary' protection is provided by the utility.  A protector never defines a protection layer (as so many assume due to advertising).  A power strip is, at best, only part of the 'secondary' protection layer.  Since that protector absorbs near zero energy.  'Secondary' protection layer is defined by what harmlessly absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. Again, any recommendation for protection always says where energy dissipates.

When I say Primary and secondary surge arresters, I am talking arresters installed by the utility company on their lines. The primary are on the transmission lines (the most likely spot for hits) and the second is at the service entrance. Neither are a discussion of customer owned surge protectors/power strips. What they do it is prevent damage to the lines by limiting the voltage potential in the event of surges. These, in particular, operate in the microsecond range. Moreover, as I've said, they aren't only defined in terms of absorption of energy, they are also defined in terms of their let-through-voltage characteristics that the line sees.

 

See:

Source 1: Simple discussion of let-through voltages.

Source 2: Page 4, Figure 3 is an example of the curves I've mentioned in graph form. The input is a 8/20us at various amperages to model lightning.

Source 3: Page 6, this list discharge voltages seen on the terminals due to transient pulses. The 8/20us impulses are modeling lightning.

 

 

Also confused is an I squared T rule.  Obvious from a previous post is why that rule does not apply when destructive transients are done in microseconds.  And that voltage increases as necessary to continue conducting through any blown fuse or circuit breaker.  Somehow a transient that cannot be stopped by three miles of sky will be blocked by a millimeters gap? Of course not.

 

It should be obvious from a previous post that fuses cannot do protection.  Fuses take milliseconds to blow AND still remain conductive until the surge current and all 'follow through' currents terminate.  'Follow-through' current is another parameter essential to understanding protection. Another reason why a fuse may not do surge protection. Any recommended fuse must explain how a milliameters gap can block that surge.

You are missing the point. As I keep saying, there is no reason to treat this as an all or nothing scenario where you are seeing a lightning pulse of 20Kamps directly on your in-line (i.e. 20KA @ 8/20us length pulse). It's simply unlikely to happen. What you are most likely going to see is a surge from lightning that occurred from a strike further down the line -- which will be seen by your equipment as a messy rise during the duty cycle -- the same as other normal transient faults but with larger amplitude. Remember, lightning is a transient response that occurs a much shorter time frame than the duty cycle meaning you'll see something like the following if you convolve the pulse with the oscillating signal: http://ecmweb.com/mag/809ecmIPQfig2B.jpg *(ignore the first and third signals here, the purpose is to show the waveform); the big difference is that there would be larger peaks than in the picture (well probably not so much, since the example 550kV transmission line in source2 is limited to about 1000kV peak under the worst lightning strikes and most of the data I've seen shows pretty good clamping), but the overall waveform would be similar.

 

At the fusebox/breaker, you aren't going to see the peaks because transmission lines have time delay and the signal will have stabilized somewhat by the time it gets you. Also the transformers stepping the signal between you and the impulse need to be considered. So, yes, in general, the fuse further down the line will have time to respond and limit the current you actually see at your installation from surging. The purpose of the I^2t curve is to assess the damage potential in a real world transient events. Not one where time and propagation delays don't exist. Ignoring time delay goes against the notion of transmission line theory.

 

*note: The picture above is a measurement of a response on the load due to the inrush of current to a capacitor. The signal response would be similar in the event of a inrush of current due to lightning in a transmission line. The purpose here is not to show absolute numbers, but the affect on the wave form itself.

 

Source 4: Page 4, Figure 3. Shows the current limiting affects of a current-limiting fuse. Note, it is rated for a maximum of response time of 1/2 the duty cycle.

[Noir Angel]

I personally just use surge protectors but I'm lucky enough to live in an area where all my services are delivered from underground cables, so it's not such a massive issue.

[snaphat (Myles Landwehr) Member]

I personally just use surge protectors but I'm lucky enough to live in an area where all my services are delivered from underground cables, so it's not such a massive issue.

Same here actually. It is funny, where I live we have underground cabling because it is a newer place, but all of the old installations have overhead lines. It would cost too much money and time to rewire the older parts of the city. One thing to note is that lightning can still hit the large transmission lines that probably feed into a transformer that fans out into your underground power lines. Shown in blue here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Electricity_grid_simple-_North_America.svg

[Noir Angel]

Good point. Given how cheap surge protectors are these days, if you value your equipment you should invest IMO

[westom]

I personally just use surge protectors but I'm lucky enough to live in an area where all my services are delivered from underground cables, so it's not such a massive issue.

Makes no difference whether service is overhead or underground.  An example is provided in a Tech Note.  Surges can be incoming on overhead or underground utility wires as professional citations note.  Every incoming wire must have properly earthed 'whole house' protection.  Protection is always requires.  A protector is not always needed:

http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/technotes/tncr002.pdf

 

Surges can be incoming on any utility - overhead or underground.  The misinformed ignore what defines protection often due to advertising:  "Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate?"  Any recommendation that ignores that question may be promoting an expensive scam.  Since the proven solution typically costs about $1 per protected appliance.

 

Protection means little time discussing a protector. Since protectors never define protection.  Informed discussion focuses on the 'art' of protection - a component where energy dissipates - single point earth ground.  Again, anyone who does not discuss THE most important component is probably confused.  This arguing about protectors is mostly wasted time.  Since and again, where does energy dissipate?.

 

Appliances are at risk if a utility wire inside any incoming cable does not connect low impedance to earth ground.  A utility demonstrates what is most important to every consumer IF protection is desired - for all underground and overhead cables:

  http://www.duke-energy.com/indiana-business/products/power-quality/tech-tip-08.asp

Protectors are dumb simple science.  Yours must make a low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to single point earth ground.  Since earth ground - not a protector - defines where energy harmlessly dissipates.

 

  A minimal protector (that costs significantly less than undersized UPS or power strip suggestions) is rated at 50,000 amps.  So that a protector does not fail with any surge.  Failure is not an option especially since that requirement also costs less money.  So that a protector remains functional even 20 years later.  50,000 amps also provides other advantages too complex for this discussion. But those so many reasons are why the minimal protector is 50,000 amps (and connected low impedance to earth). 

 

More relevant information: introduced was the 'primary' surge protection layer.  So important to appliance protection that homeowners should inspect what defines that  protection.  Pictures demonstrate what to inspect:

http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

That earth ground, like your service entrance earth ground, answers the relevant question.  Where does energy dissipate?

 

If those earth grounds and 'whole house' protector does not exist, then a power strip or UPS protector may even make appliance damage easier - as demonstrated by previous numbers. Or in rare cases cause a fire.  Those plug-in protectors are effective when implemented with proper earthing (an art) and a 'whole house' protector (simple science).

 

How many knew about effective protection required and installed on phone and cable wires long before any of us existed?  Again, a protector does not define protection.  Earth ground does.  Homeowners (not the utility) are responsible for that so important earth ground. Superior protection for cable TV needs no protector.  Since a wire low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) from TV cable to earth does better than what a protector might do.

 

  How do you know this is most useful?  Recommendations for what you need come with important numbers - ie 'less than 10 feet', 50,000 amps.  Others may be stuck on advertising myths that recommend ineffective protectors and without any numbers. Due to that enchantment, then we still have not discussed THE most important component in every protection system.  Single point earth ground.  Protectors are simple dumb science.  The 'art' of protection is earthing.  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.  Then we are discussing what is important: where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.

 

A 'whole house' protector from other and more responsible companies (listed earlier) should be at least 50,000 amps.  And connect low impedance to single point earth ground - the most important component in every surge protection layer.  None of this is complicated.  Any  layman can correct or implement this.  But something this new can create fear or confusion.  We have yet to discuss THE most important component in any protection system ? based in concepts originally introduced in elementary school science.  Unfortunately, too many discuss plug-in protectors that do not even claim to protect from typically destructive surges.

[+Raze Subscriber²]

Makes no difference whether service is overhead or underground.  An example is provided in a Tech Note.  Surges can be incoming on overhead or underground utility wires as professional citations note.  Every incoming wire must have properly earthed 'whole house' protection.  Protection is always requires.  A protector is not always needed:

http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/technotes/tncr002.pdf

 

Surges can be incoming on any utility - overhead or underground.  The misinformed ignore what defines protection often due to advertising:  "Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate?"  Any recommendation that ignores that question may be promoting an expensive scam.  Since the proven solution typically costs about $1 per protected appliance.

 

Protection means little time discussing a protector. Since protectors never define protection.  Informed discussion focuses on the 'art' of protection - a component where energy dissipates - single point earth ground.  Again, anyone who does not discuss THE most important component is probably confused.  This arguing about protectors is mostly wasted time.  Since and again, where does energy dissipate?.

 

Appliances are at risk if a utility wire inside any incoming cable does not connect low impedance to earth ground.  A utility demonstrates what is most important to every consumer IF protection is desired - for all underground and overhead cables:

  http://www.duke-energy.com/indiana-business/products/power-quality/tech-tip-08.asp

Protectors are dumb simple science.  Yours must make a low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to single point earth ground.  Since earth ground - not a protector - defines where energy harmlessly dissipates.

 

  A minimal protector (that costs significantly less than undersized UPS or power strip suggestions) is rated at 50,000 amps.  So that a protector does not fail with any surge.  Failure is not an option especially since that requirement also costs less money.  So that a protector remains functional even 20 years later.

 

More relevant information: introduced was the 'primary' surge protection layer.  So important to appliance protection that homeowners should inspect what defines that  protection.  Pictures demonstrate what to inspect:

http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

That earth ground, like your service entrance earth ground, answers the relevant question.  Where does energy dissipate?

 

If those earth grounds and 'whole house' protector does not exist, then a power strip or UPS protector may even make appliance damage easier - as demonstrated by previous numbers. Or in rare cases cause a fire.  Those plug-in protectors are effective when implemented with proper earthing (an art) and a 'whole house' protector (simple science).

 

How many knew about effective protection required and installed on phone and cable wires long before any of us existed?  Again, a protector does not define protection.  Earth ground does.  Homeowners (not the utility) are responsible for that so important earth ground. Superior protection for cable TV needs no protector.  Since a wire low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) from TV cable to earth does better than what a protector might do.

 

  How do you know this is most useful?  Recommendations for what you need come with important numbers - ie 'less than 10 feet', 50,000 amps.  Others may be stuck on advertising myths that recommend ineffective protectors and without any numbers. Due to that enchantment, then we still have not discussed THE most important component in every protection system.  Single point earth ground.  Protectors are simple dumb science.  The 'art' of protection is earthing.  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.  Then we are discussing what is important: where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.

 

A 'whole house' protector from other and more responsible companies (listed earlier) should be at least 50,000 amps.  And connect low impedance to single point earth ground - the most important component in every surge protection layer.  None of this is complicated.  Any  layman can correct or implement this.  But something this new can create fear or confusion.  We have yet to discuss THE most important component in any protection system ? based in concepts originally introduced in elementary school science.  Unfortunately, too many discuss plug-in protectors that do not even claim to protect from typically destructive surges.

 

Haven't you repeated yourself enough, we get it. Thanks for all of the information you have shared.  I have done the best I can to protect my investment, if that isn't enough so be it.

[123456789A]

As others have already said, protectors are only effective if connected to earth. So, switch your ISP to EarthLink and you will always remain grounded and safe from lightning strikes.

[westom]

 One thing to note is that lightning can still hit the large transmission lines that probably feed into a transformer that fans out into your underground power lines. Shown in blue here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Electricity_grid_simple-_North_America.svg

 

Lets discuss that since it is relevant to how homeowners protect appliances.  Wires highest on the pole are high voltage (maybe 2000 or 13,000 volts).  Those wires are most often struck.  Again, what does a surge seek?  Earth ground.

 

If the 'primary' surge protection layer is properly earthed, then a direct strike to those wires mostly goes to earth at the transformer.  What happens when some scumbag steals copper ground wire (see pictures at http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html)?  Then lightning creates a plasma wire from high voltage wires to your 240 volt wires.

 

Previously mentioned was a critically important concept (that also says why fuses and circuit breakers do not do protection):  'follow-through' current.  Once lightning has created a plasma wire inside the transformer, then electricity with far more energy connects to every appliance inside your house.  Some have seen symptoms of this failure - ie sparks shooting from wall receptacles.  Those sparks are not from lightning.  Sparks are from another problem created because a 'primary' protection layer was compromised: 'follow-through' current.

 

Most critical component in every protection layer is earth ground - not a protector or UPS.  You are strongly encouraged to inspect earth ground for your 'secondary' protection layer (at the service entrance).  And also inspect earth ground that defines your 'primary' surge protection layer.

 

Chances are nobody here knew any of this. These simple solutions, that cost so little, do not create obscene profits to pay for advertising.  But again, protection is about where energy dissipates.  In this case, so that a transformer does not connect 13,000 volts into all household appliances.

[Ph1b3r0pt1c]

If you are not using an APC for backup power and surge protection then you fail at running any computer.

A surge is rare ok, but brown outs and unclean power is constant no matter what type of home or building you are in so invest in even a small APC!!!!

Damn, I need to run out and get the biggest UPS "APC" makes for my netbook I guess.

[snaphat (Myles Landwehr) Member]

Lets discuss that since it is relevant to how homeowners protect appliances.  Wires highest on the pole are high voltage (maybe 2000 or 13,000 volts).  Those wires are most often struck.  Again, what does a surge seek?  Earth ground.

 

<snip>

That's just an extreme example of a power company doing a poor job on the last mile. You don't need to keep repeating yourself and appealing to extreme situations. Besides, proper grounding doesn't guarantee protection against a direct hit of lightning anyway since electricity doesn't follow the path of least resistance in the sense that people normally think it does. For example, lightning could come in on your ground line and back feed into your electrical system before dissipating to earth ground. Yeah, it will get there eventually, but that doesn't mean it won't cause damage prior. But, as I said before most surges from lightning are going to further down the line anyway.

 

Also, interestingly, I just googled that tvtower link and a few other things you've said and found a large number of other sites where you have stated exactly the same things you have said here many times over just like you have here. I don't get it.  :dontgetit:

[T3X4S]

I am wondering if my Panamax box is as pointless as mentioned in this thread - little bugger was expensive !  :cry:
 

[+Warwagon MVC]

Why are you using the APC bran name when referring to UPS' ?

 

I wondered the same thing. Apparently APC is the iPad of the UPS market

 

 

If you are not using an UPS  for backup power and surge protection then you fail at running any computer.

A surge is rare ok, but brown outs and unclean power is constant no matter what type of home or building you are in so invest in even a small UPS!!!!

 

Fixed!

[snaphat (Myles Landwehr) Member]

I am wondering if my Panamax box is as pointless as mentioned in this thread - little bugger was expensive !  :cry:

 

I wouldn't say it is useless, probably overly expensive though  :)

[primexx]

I have concluded that westom and snaphat know more than me - and I will now direct all power-related questions to them, just like network questions should be handled by BudMan

 

sounds like westom's just throwing big words around with a big dose of condescension.

[jasondefaoite]

If you are not using an APC for backup power and surge protection then you fail at running any computer.

A surge is rare ok, but brown outs and unclean power is constant no matter what type of home or building you are in so invest in even a small APC!!!!

 

Guess that depends on the country you live in and the quality of the power distribution network there.

 

I've been living in Singapore for the last 17 years, have multiple PCs/Macs at home, have no surge protection and never had an issue. Singapore has some amazing thunder storms on a regular basis too.

 

But I guess I fail at running a computer.

[westom]

I've been living in Singapore for the last 17 years, have multiple PCs/Macs at home, have no surge protection and never had an issue. Singapore has some amazing thunder storms on a regular basis too.

 

 

A potentially destructive surge might occur once every seven years.  A number that can vary significantly even in town.   A number determined by other factors including geology.  A decade of neighborhood history estimates neighborhood risk.  And not only to computers.  Computers are more robust than other appliances. How often do lesser appliances fail?  Also at risk and suffering damage would be CFL bulbs, air conditioner, dimmer switches, clocks, refrigerator, mobile phone, recharging electric car, and dishwasher.  How often have those also failed?

 

Electrical anomalies include frequency variation, floating ground, EMC/EMI, harmonics, reversed polarity, brownouts, open neutral, RFI, power factor, and blackout.  Some are harmful to motorized appliances but are perfectly fine for electronics.  Which ones are 'solved' by an APC UPS?  A UPS protects unsaved data from a blackout.  Can create some anomalies.  And claims near zero surge protection.  Many only assume it is a surge protector.

 

Effective surge protection always has one critically important characteristic.  It must have a low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to what does protection. What absorbs energy? Single point earth ground is essential to even protect from surges incoming from the earth.  Neither an APC UPS nor Panamax have that feature ? a low impedance connection to earth.  Neither will even discuss what is required for protection. Neither answers a damning question, ?Where does energy dissipate??

 

Which anomaly are you trying to cure?  Which anomaly, always defined by a number, is addressed by a surge protector or UPS? Which anomalies exist?  How often do harmful anomalies occur? Maybe once every seven years.  Most anomalies are ignored by a UPS or surge protector. Or (ie brownouts, 'dirty' power) are already made irrelevant by superior protection inside electronics.  Your concern is an anomaly that can overwhelm existing appliance protection.  Panamax specification numbers do not claim that protection.

 

OP asked about protection from anomalies created by thunderstorms.  His battery backup does nothing to protect hardware from surges and other anomalies.  It does protect unsaved data from blackouts.  Which anomaly is a concern?  A risk determined by neighborhood history.  Surge protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.  An anomaly that may occur once every seven years.

[jasondefaoite]

Westom, as I mentioned, I'm not trying to cure any anomaly. 7 years eh? Did you break any mirrors?

 

I agree with some point you made above, but not others.
 

A UPS protects unsaved data from a blackout

Based off the number of different anomalies you mentioned prior to this, i assume you are saying a UPS only helps from a blackout. Variations of voltage, frequency, sag, surge and swell are protected by a UPS.

 

Or are already made irrelevant by superior protection inside appliances.

This I agree with, and we can thank the EU for this. Most countries have EMC requirements for devices to meet before they can be sold in those countries. The USA only has requirements for emissions. The EU has EMC requirements for both emissions and immunity (as does Korea). The immunity aspect covers Surge, Fast Transient Burst and Voltage Dips/Interupts. So, most devices will have some level of protection included within the device, if designed to meet those regulations.

 

Electrical anomalies include ... harmonics .... power factor,

 

These two in particular have little to no impact on the consumer or devices we use. Not sure why you included them. The only reason we have an Harmonics standard in the EU, and the potential need of PFC in a switch mode PSU is because harmonics are bad for the power companies. They don't affect the functionality of PCs connected to that power.

[HawkMan]

 

Based off the number of different anomalies you mentioned prior to this, i assume you are saying a UPS only helps from a blackout. Variations of voltage, frequency, sag, surge and swell are protected by a UPS.

 

 

a PC PSU will handle extreme power fluctuations on itself without taking any damage to itself or to PC components, it will even handle quick power drops up to a second depending on the quality of the PSU.

 

so you do not need a UPS to protect against variations in voltage, frequency so or surges. the PSU will handle all those just fine, except high surges that would blow you PUS anyway and be stopped in your fusebox.

 

the ONLY real problem a UPS protects against that your PSU doesn't is dataloss in a blackout. the unclean power myth is... mythical. 

[jasondefaoite]

a PC PSU will handle extreme power fluctuations on itself without taking any damage to itself or to PC components, it will even handle quick power drops up to a second depending on the quality of the PSU.

 

so you do not need a UPS to protect against variations in voltage, frequency so or surges. the PSU will handle all those just fine, except high surges that would blow you PUS anyway and be stopped in your fusebox.

 

the ONLY real problem a UPS protects against that your PSU doesn't is dataloss in a blackout. the unclean power myth is... mythical. 

 

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I agree with your point. The point I was making is a UPS is more than just a battery backup, it does provide cleaner power to the device it is powering.

 

However, as I also mentioned above, due to the EU regulations, devices themselves do have some level of protection built into the devices themselves, so are more fault tolerant then they would be otherwise.

 

As I also mentioned, I don't, and never have, use a UPS. I personally don't feel the need.