MikeChipshop Member Posted May 2, 2014 Member Share Posted May 2, 2014 Religion only really comes into it because Halal is a religious method of slaughtering animals. My objection to it lies purely with the inherent cruelty to the animal. OK, the animal is going to die for food, but there's no need to be cruel to the poor thing as well. Quite agree. According to a documentary i watched on 4OD some time ago, one third of all Halal meat is humanely killed. Why this can;t be 100% i have no idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloatingFatMan Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 Quite agree. According to a documentary i watched on 4OD some time ago, one third of all Halal meat is humanely killed. Why this can;t be 100% i have no idea. Indeed. As far as I know, the animal doesn't -have- to be conscious, so why is it? Stun it, say you're prayers, and do the killing. Or say your prayers, stun it, THEN do the killing. As long as it's stunned, it's fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeChipshop Member Posted May 2, 2014 Member Share Posted May 2, 2014 Pretty much exactly what this slaughter house were saying. No where is it stated it can not be stunned, it's just an idea past down word of mouth from fathers to sons. The slaughter house featured, stunned the animals then carried on as normal. Sad thing is they did loose a lot of business after switching to this way of doing things. I say good on 'em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yazoo Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 In the US Subway has Kosher restaurants, albeit not as many as halal in the UK, but I very much doubt there will be such an outcry as here http://www.jta.org/2009/08/05/life-religion/eat-fresh-eat-kosher-subway-the-largest-u-s-kosher-restaurant-chain This is also an interesting read, can not validate the content as no source was given but nonetheless interesting read http://www.mustaqim.co.uk/halal.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsherGZ Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Indeed. As far as I know, the animal doesn't -have- to be conscious, so why is it? Stun it, say you're prayers, and do the killing. Or say your prayers, stun it, THEN do the killing. As long as it's stunned, it's fine. I guess the reason for that is that a stunned animal cannot move, which is necessary for the complete excretion of blood from its body, because blood is harmful and carries most diseases. As long as the animal convulses, it's heart keeps beating and pumping blood out of its body. That is also the reason why the spinal cord is left intact when the animal is slaughtered, so as not to paralyse it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cacoe Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 I guess the reason for that is that a stunned animal cannot move, which is necessary for the complete excretion of blood from its body, because blood is harmful and carries most diseases. As long as the animal convulses, it's heart keeps beating and pumping blood out of its body. That is also the reason why the spinal cord is left intact when the animal is slaughtered, so as not to paralyse it. Not sure you understand how an animal is killed non-kosher/halal. It is usually left unconscious via an electric shock to the brain and then killed via a bolt to the brain. It dies when it's unconcious. Halal usually means the animal has to bleed to death while concious, thusly, most blood also leaves the body, just as much either way. I actually think stunning is the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praetor Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Article is just bait for religion intolerants to speak their minds and to cause controversies because the truth is that this is just a business decision from Subway; they are just pleasing their costumers (i guess that those franchisees have most Muslim costumers then otherwise). I once read that McDonald's was selling seafood in their restaurants near the coast, where the people had more economic power.. seafood, in McDonalds's. yep. Pure business decision? Of course! last but not least: i thought that Halal food was one of the most humane way to kill a animal for food... sinis 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torolol Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Halal food was one of the most humane way to kill a animal for food. citation needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praetor Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 citation needed. i said "i thought", geez everything needs sources in the interwebs this days?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+JHBrown Subscriber¹ Posted May 3, 2014 Subscriber¹ Share Posted May 3, 2014 Kudos to Subway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V9s Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Define a "proper Muslim". Once you've done that, ask a Shiite and a Sunni to define a "proper Muslim" (if they can stand being in the same room without trying to kill each other for more than 5 seconds). Compare all three answers; they'll all be different. The various sects of Islam disagree on "hadith and sunnah" (Alleged sayings and acts of the Prophet Muhammad). At the very least, they agree on the commandments listed in the holy book (The Quran). A proper muslim will prohibit himself from doing what the Quran has stated to be forbidden and will do what the Quran enjoins him to do. I knew plenty of Muslims. I also know plenty of Muslims that do not go to the Mosque on a regular basis too. I knew plenty of Jews and plenty of Muslims that ate pork and drank alcohol. The Muslims are proper Muslims. They were muslims, sure, but by definition they weren't proper muslims. A proper muslim would not do what God has prohibited. Also, going to the mosque is not a requirement. sinis 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V9s Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 I love it when any religious follower starts the "proper x" or "proper y" kind of person. Every book written thousands of years ago cannot stand up to modern times and changes so quite obviously people have different ways of interpretation in our era. If people were really being human, they'd just take the important parts of their chosen book(s) (kindness/love/forgiveness etc) strictly, and allow diversity and difference of opinion on the not so important things. Yeah sure importance is subjective, but cmon, telling people they're not proper because of what they eat or drink... well, there's the reason religion is all about repression, fear and oppression. Oh please. By definition they're not proper muslims because they disregard the commandments of God. Now they can do whatever they like, I do not care - My faith teaches me it's not my business but between them and God, and the maximum I can do is to give them guidance on the right path if they choose to follow. What I have an issue with is when such people who blatantly disregard God's message are called "proper muslims." sinis 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloatingFatMan Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 What I have an issue with is when such people who blatantly disregard God's message are called "proper muslims." But here is where we get to the crux of the matter, because THEY call THEMSELVES "proper Muslims". Who am I to say they're not? If someone tells me they're a true believer, then it's not my place to tell them they're wrong, is it? It's the place of other "true believers" to do that, and who am I to say who is right and who isn't? Perhaps both are right, or perhaps it's neither... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted May 3, 2014 Subscriber² Share Posted May 3, 2014 Oh please. By definition they're not proper muslims because they disregard the commandments of God. Now they can do whatever they like, I do not care - My faith teaches me it's not my business but between them and God, and the maximum I can do is to give them guidance on the right path if they choose to follow. What I have an issue with is when such people who blatantly disregard God's message are called "proper muslims." Some people don't want to live a life of fear, and maybe they think the God they are following/praising isn't as interested in fear, domination and control as some people would like to make you believe from scripture interpretation. Instead one of love, kindness, forgiveness and yes, even able to "rejig" himself for modern times. You know, he/she/it has left us with a book(s), like it or not, that are very "outdated" with how we live now compared to thousands of years ago. Apart from people proclaiming God spoke to them in their sleep we're not getting a rewrite of the holy books, so interpretations do change as we change and learn more about what it is to be human. That's why I said some care more for taking the "important" parts of their holy books to a tee, but may well interpret other parts differently that aren't as life useful to us in the modern era as they were for desert dwellers with no real understanding of the world/themselves/the universe. Do most scriptures not preach it is not up to the human to judge and make a conclusions on ones faith, but God himself? To me whenever religious people start the whole "proper this", "proper that" it really just sounds like THEY want to play God. I've always said to religious folks it's far more powerful and true for someone to CHOOSE to go from point A to point B as they are happy with their faith, and feel loved/forgiven/kindness, than it is to feel FORCED to go from A to B with a metaphorical "spear" in their back telling them do this or pay for the consequences. Pretty sure if there's a God about somewhere, he/she/it isn't really as a big of a dick as some would like you to believe. I mean hey, times a forgiver (pretty sure holding onto anger for thousands of years is a bad move) and as a civilization we've done pretty awesomely in progressing, curing and taking care of each other to get to 6 billion odd folk :laugh: I'd like to think on the whole God would be impressed by the good things we've managed to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkMan Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Religions change with time. Sometimes a book written by priests thousands of years ago, when disease wasn't understood and the reason why some pig meat could make you sick wasn't known, need to be updated as things have changed. And we now know why, and anabolic peoole dying from eating under cooked pig, and we know it's not an unclean animal. Trust me V9s if you met a Muslim from 2000 years back, he would stone you for being a heretic and not being a proper Muslim. Things have changed, but only smaller subtle things. To get with the times religions sometimes need to change bigger things as well. Like some Muslims have done, and it doesn't make them any less Muslim. Not to rational people anyway, but Muslims love to condemn other people for some reasons. It's like the damn Westboro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yazoo Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 citation needed. not really plenty of studies prove it, albeit not conclusively. But that goes both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leesmithg Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Religions change with time. Sometimes a book written by priests thousands of years ago, when disease wasn't understood and the reason why some pig meat could make you sick wasn't known, need to be updated as things have changed. And we now know why, and anabolic peoole dying from eating under cooked pig, and we know it's not an unclean animal. Trust me V9s if you met a Muslim from 2000 years back, he would stone you for being a heretic and not being a proper Muslim. Things have changed, but only smaller subtle things. To get with the times religions sometimes need to change bigger things as well. Like some Muslims have done, and it doesn't make them any less Muslim. Not to rational people anyway, but Muslims love to condemn other people for some reasons. It's like the damn Westboro. A Pig is the cleanest mammal known to man, cleaner than Man. Pigs don't sweat either, so the phrase ''I am sweating like a Pig'' is not right. Like the other one, ''I am putting on so much weight I eat like a Bird''. They say this to mean they eat nothing. Have you ever watched Birds, all they do is forage and eat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk. Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 I do not eat ham, or bacon. Because they stink. However, Muslims, and Jewish and some Christs do not eat bacon, ham: Because they believe pigs are disgustingly dirty scavengers, eat their own faeces, and not jealous of their female partners Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuckeratlarge Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Any food outlet that sells halal is off limits for me. Regardless of religion, halal is cruel, and has no place in UK general eateries. Specialist shops that cater for the barbaric beliefs and practices of a minority are all well and good and have their place. Subway = no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkMan Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 I do not eat ham, or bacon. Because they stink. However, Muslims, and Jewish and some Christs do not eat bacon, ham: Because they believe pigs are disgustingly dirty scavengers, eat their own faeces, and not jealous of their female partners Well then they certainly can't eat red meat.... Any food outlet that sells halal is off limits for me. Regardless of religion, halal is cruel, and has no place in UK general eateries. Specialist shops that cater for the barbaric beliefs and practices of a minority are all well and good and have their place. Subway = no All other things, aside, why is Halal cruel ? numerous independent reports say that animals slaughtered by cutting the throat while conscious to bleed to do not feel any pain and will pass out quickly from the blood loss to the brain. and they feel no more pain than from the stun gun. a lot of people have this assumption that because they're "awake" and being cut there's this huge pain. anyone who's had a serious cut will also tell you a cut with a clean sharp knife won't be felt for a long time. long after they have passed out from blood loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloatingFatMan Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 It' cruel because the animal is conscious and aware of what just happened to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkMan Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 It' cruel because the animal is conscious and aware of what just happened to it. I doubt any animal has awareness of what a knife if, much less that it's throat has been slit since it won't feel it. no more cruel than rows of cows going into a slaughterhouse, being stunned, in front of the others and violently hung upside down one by one. AsherGZ 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloatingFatMan Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 I doubt any animal has awareness of what a knife if, much less that it's throat has been slit since it won't feel it. no more cruel than rows of cows going into a slaughterhouse, being stunned, in front of the others and violently hung upside down one by one. Watch a halal slaughtering, then tell me it doesn't feel pain. I have, and I've also been inside the killing room of an abattoir. I know which is less cruel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkMan Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Watch a halal slaughtering, then tell me it doesn't feel pain. I have, and I've also been inside the killing room of an abattoir. I know which is less cruel. I've seen a pig slaughtered with a bolt gun. most city dwellers who think meat is produced in a factory would swear that pig felt pain and screamed in pain. both before and after it was dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vcfan Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 However, Muslims, and Jewish and some Christs do not eat bacon, ham: Because they believe pigs are disgustingly dirty scavengers, eat their own faeces, and not jealous of their female partners ive heard people of every faith refer to cops as pigs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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