Time travel humans = aliens?

[zachman123]

not another "does time exist" discussion... :blink:

[CrimsonBlur]

Wrong!, Time does exist, it's one of th basic dimentions. and in fact we all travle through (or rather along) time. Get yourself a copy of Teach Yourself Basic Science in 21 Days.

I agree with you that what we call "time" is in existance. I doubt is actually in the "form" that we percieve it in, but it is somehow a fundamental pricipal of physics, I'm sure. But then again, I can never REALLY be sure.

What I would say to you is: while I agree, you could still be wrong, and I wouldn't bet on a science book to prove your beliefs correct. That accomplishes nothing. As much as I love science and where it can take us, science can only bring us closer to the wall. Instead of seeing the wall as one huge slab of, say, iron, we now see it as individual atoms and some of their interactions. We cannot actually see these things in the conventional sense, right now we can only observe their effects or how outside forces affect them. Doing this will not, in my mind, lead us to ultimate truth; all it does is get us really, really close to the boundaries of what we can learn about the universe. In essence, you're just putting your eyes so close to the computer monitor that you just can't do it anymore and you're getting a major headache. Human logic and reason alone cannot give us all of the ansers and ultimate truths of the universe, we have to look beyond these things to discover the truths for ourselves.

What is written in our science books today could easily be disproven tomorrow with one small discovery. Everything we know about our world and the universe we live in can easily be shattered by one little discovery that just so happens to contradict what we have learned so far. If that discovery is proven to be fundamentally correct, then you have to rewrite all of the books all over again. Many of the things we write down and have faith in (yes, science is very much based on a fundamental faith in human reason) are things which help us better understand the universe and the way we live in it currently. Case in point: thinking the Earth is the center of the universe. By observing the motions of the stars and other planets, it was obvious to earlier man that everything rotated around the Earth. This applied to Religion at the time as well, since it was basically interpreted to say that the Earth is the center of the universe and everything around it was created by God for us. This held true for many years, even after it was proven multiple times it was false, and even many educated normal people knew it was untrue. It wasn't until it was finally published and explained to the masses that it was accepted that the Earth was NOT the center of the universe. But it made things mighty convenient and easy to explain and understand while that "truth" was true.

[Japlabot]

He also mentions war (US civil war 2005, wwIII 2015 w/russia) in North America, Asia & Europe. I hope Australia is safe :whistle:

I for one don't see Civil War in the US happening again. It is clearly possible that Arab nations supporting terrorism might attack Isreal all out at this point, given the state of the US military at present. If that guy is a time traveller, let's hear how he does it.

I'm going to take some pointers from this guy even though it probably won't be as tough for me as it was for him, or he could be talking absolute ****, so I'm going to start doing some excersize, and beg with my family to move to geelong/bendigo/ballerat/some other whoop whoop place in the state if his predictions about an American Civil War are correct, so we can stay out of the way..... And if they don't believe my looneyness, I'm going to print this up and let them read it. :D

[iMonkey]

so this "time_t" bug exists ??

There is more than enough time to weed it out in Linux (if it is in linux..) and the same goes for *NIX.

Although the cost would be huge, it would probably cement these companies into history in some way or another - and it would mean that this guy coming back to get the IBM 5100 wouldn't need to get it.., thus defeating his purpose in our time (sort-of)

[sin-ergy]

as I always say, nothing is impossible :laugh:

[CrimsonBlur]

as I always say, nothing is impossible  :laugh:

Yeah, I always like to say that things are implausable, not impossible. How can we possibly say anything is impossible simply because it hasn't happened? I mean... we live in the here-and-now. I don't think we could ever actually know what is truely impossible in all contexts of the word.

[sin-ergy]

Yeah, I always like to say that things are implausable, not impossible. How can we possibly say anything is impossible simply because it hasn't happened? I mean... we live in the here-and-now. I don't think we could ever actually know what is truely impossible in all contexts of the word.

my thoughts exactly. just because it hasn't been done it doesn't mean we can't do it. we're capable of many amazing and horrific things. just give it time; no pun intended :)

[Mango]

Well i can tell you now that it is IMPOSSIBLE for me to jump through my window naked and run to Antartica and back in 2 seconds right this very moment. So there are plenty of things that are impossible.

With the atomic clock experiment, that type of timetravel is linear and you can only go forward in time in a very crued way. If you want to actually travel years through time, and by staying in one spot, you would need to pass into an alternate reality. The theory is, there are an infinite number of universes out there, all slightly different to each other in some way. So if you wanted to travel 40 years into the past and kill your father, the 'you' in that wordline will not be born obviously, but you will still exist because you have travelled from a different universe.

[QuarterSwede]

^ You read Timeline or something on Quantum physics I see. Good book, doesn't look to be a good movie though.

[sin-ergy]

Well i can tell you now that it is IMPOSSIBLE for me to jump through my window naked and run to Antartica and back in 2 seconds right this very moment. So there are plenty of things that are impossible.

With the atomic clock experiment, that type of timetravel is linear and you can only go forward in time in a very crued way. If you want to actually travel years through time, and by staying in one spot, you would need to pass into an alternate reality. The theory is, there are an infinite number of universes out there, all slightly different to each other in some way. So if you wanted to travel 40 years into the past and kill your father, the 'you' in that wordline will not be born obviously, but you will still exist because you have travelled from a different universe.

well no ****, if you're gonna put it in that context :/

[-outcast-]

Well i can tell you now that it is IMPOSSIBLE for me to jump through my window naked and run to Antartica and back in 2 seconds right this very moment. So there are plenty of things that are impossible.

With the atomic clock experiment, that type of timetravel is linear and you can only go forward in time in a very crued way. If you want to actually travel years through time, and by staying in one spot, you would need to pass into an alternate reality. The theory is, there are an infinite number of universes out there, all slightly different to each other in some way. So if you wanted to travel 40 years into the past and kill your father, the 'you' in that wordline will not be born obviously, but you will still exist because you have travelled from a different universe.

Actually that is not impossible at all, it could happen, it just most likely will not.

[CrimsonBlur]

Well i can tell you now that it is IMPOSSIBLE for me to jump through my window naked and run to Antartica and back in 2 seconds right this very moment. So there are plenty of things that are impossible.

With the atomic clock experiment, that type of timetravel is linear and you can only go forward in time in a very crued way. If you want to actually travel years through time, and by staying in one spot, you would need to pass into an alternate reality. The theory is, there are an infinite number of universes out there, all slightly different to each other in some way. So if you wanted to travel 40 years into the past and kill your father, the 'you' in that wordline will not be born obviously, but you will still exist because you have travelled from a different universe.

Well, many, many revered physisists have been quoted as saying something along the lines of "it is not impossible that you will disappear at any given time and be instantaniously "transported" to another destination through sheer randomness of physical events". What they imply when they say this, is that the laws of physics actually do make it possible for things of this nature to literally happen, but the laws of physics are such that this is so very, very unlikely to happen that it most likely never will; but that doesn't mean it cannot happen. Just because events don't come to fruition, or you can't imagine how to accomplish a specific thing, doesn't mean it is impossible. That's what I'm getting at. Your example is insanely improbable, and you would percieve it as impossible... as would most any normal person (including me), on the surface. But if Stephen Hawking and others are known to make statements like the above, I'm sure your example isn't completely out of the realm of possibility, just out of the realm of our own comprehension of how that would actually take place in what we percieve as reality. Many times these quotes are meant to be funny, but when probed like I have seen they end up admitting that the statement is fundamentally true. I can't give you any specific examples of this, I've just watched a ton of documentaries and specials and have heard these things said many times by different people.

Also, the current models of the way time "shaped", you would not need to enter an alternate reality to travel through time. Afterall, most modern theories about time do not apply lineararity, they just assume that is the only effective way for us to percieve time so we can live our lives and do things in real time as we have to in our current state.

As an example I quote a theory by Stephen Hawking:

1) If there was a wormhole with its two ends close together, you could walk through the wormhole and come out at the same time.

2) One can imagine taking one end of the wormhole on a long journey on a spaceship while the other end remains on Earth.

3) Because of the twins paradox effect, when the spaceship returns, less time has elapsed fo rthe mouth it contains than for the mouth that stays on Earth. This would mean that if you step into the Earth mouth, you could come out of the spaceship at an earlier time.

This isn't the best example to illustrate how time is not actually linear (which it does illustrate though), but it is a great example of why you would not need to travel into another universe to travel through time. Also, going into another universe does not = time travel. If you say time is linear, then when you did that, you would travel to the exact same point in time in the other universe (and you would anyway, even if time was not linear). You would still need to find a way to travel through time and space at the same time. You example only states that you'd be travelling to another universe, which would only be travelling through spacial dimensions, not through time (the major theories do not state that time is warped between dimensions, rather that time intertwines all of the possible spacial dimensions). But if you were only stating that as an example because of the problem with killing yourself (paradox), then that would be a good way around the problem, yes. But it still doesn't explain how you would be travelling through time. Also, because of the inherent link between time and sapce, it is unlikely that you could travel through time without moving. You would need a way to dilate time itself, and currently the only theory of this is through movement (maybe only acceleration). Anyone have any ideas/theories how you would travel through time without moving? The example above obviously requires the spaceship travelling to create time dilation.

Edited December 9, 2003 by CrimsonBlur

[Mango]

would need a way to dilate time itself, and currently the only theory of this is through movement (maybe only acceleration). Anyone have any ideas/theories how you would travel through time without moving? The example above obviously requires the spaceship travelling to create time dilation.

You dont need movement to create acceleration, just gravity - a lot of it. So you would need the properties of a black hole. By using microsingularities (mini black holes) you will be able to manipulate the gravitational field by injecting electrons onto its surface, which will allow you to control the amount of time dialation neccessary for your trip :) (haha im starting to sound like a mad man)

[danshome]

Case in point: thinking the Earth is the center of the universe. By observing the motions of the stars and other planets, it was obvious to earlier man that everything rotated around the Earth. This applied to Religion at the time as well, since it was basically interpreted to say that the Earth is the center of the universe and everything around it was created by God for us. This held true for many years, even after it was proven multiple times it was false, and even many educated normal people knew it was untrue. It wasn't until it was finally published and explained to the masses that it was accepted that the Earth was NOT the center of the universe. But it made things mighty convenient and easy to explain and understand while that "truth" was true.

Fair enough that theories could be disproven - it's one of the fundamental tenets of science that explanations are just theories. On the other hand, they DO have to explain observable facts so, for the most part, the things that change with a new theory will be the things that we infer - for example, relativity couldn't be thrown out and suddenly "width" will disappear (or at least not be replaced by something that explains "width"). You won't find a proper scientist on earth that will say "this is true", only "this is the best explanation we have for what we see".

And your example about Earth being the centre of the Universe is hideously flawed - the whole reason that it was considered the centre of the earth was that people DID NOT take into acccount the orbits of the stars and planets. For example, Astronomers actually cameup with theories about how the Sun was the centre of the Solar System well into the time of the Ancient Greeks. But, without exception, dogma over-rulled fact and the ideas were universally discarded. Religion shaped "science" (which wasn't really science as we know it - just as series of good ideas, really), not the other way around.

[CrimsonBlur]

You dont need movement to create acceleration, just gravity - a lot of it. So you would need the properties of a black hole. By using microsingularities (mini black holes) you will be able to manipulate the gravitational field by injecting electrons onto its surface, which will allow you to control the amount of time dialation neccessary for your trip :) (haha im starting to sound like a mad man)

Good point. Now that you mention that, I think it was stated earlier. I didn't really think of that though, thanks :)

And your example about Earth being the centre of the Universe is hideously flawed - the whole reason that it was considered the centre of the earth was that people DID NOT take into acccount the orbits of the stars and planets. For example, Astronomers actually cameup with theories about how the Sun was the centre of the Solar System well into the time of the Ancient Greeks. But, without exception, dogma over-rulled fact and the ideas were universally discarded. Religion shaped "science" (which wasn't really science as we know it - just as series of good ideas, really), not the other way around.

Yeah, but the average Joe looked at the sky, saw things moved across the sky in a circle, and figured everything went around the Earth. The church confirmed this, and the general public looked up, saw that it could be so, and just pretty much accepted it, because it explained what they saw. I don't see how what I said was "hideously flawed". I just think I didn't explain what every possible reason for people thinking that was... I didn't say science shaped religion, I said that what some scientists theorized happened to coincide with the churches thoughts, and the church used that to their advantage and tossed out the later correct theories until it was too much for them to handle. Maybe I'm still not right about that, but from what I recall learning about the history of this subject, that's fundamentally correct. Is it not?

Edited December 9, 2003 by CrimsonBlur

[MoRiA]

He also mentions war (US civil war 2005, wwIII 2015 w/russia) in North America, Asia & Europe. I hope Australia is safe :whistle:

I for one don't see Civil War in the US happening again. It is clearly possible that Arab nations supporting terrorism might attack Isreal all out at this point, given the state of the US military at present. If that guy is a time traveller, let's hear how he does it.

File Sharers Vs the RIAA? could make for an interesting war ;)

Who says that a civil war has to happen "IRL"? Could just be large gangs of hackers against each other or something like that.. :cool:

[danshome]

I didn't say science shaped religion, I said that what some scientists theorized happened to coincide with the churches thoughts, and the church used that to their advantage and tossed out the later correct theories until it was too much for them to handle. Maybe I'm still not right about that, but from what I recall learning about the history of this subject, that's fundamentally correct. Is it not?

Sure - that's a fair enough explanation. But what I was saying was that in the past, people mis-interpreted the evidence. Yes your average joe saw the stars move - but in most cases they left it at that. The "scientists" saw the strange orbits of the planets around earth and discarded sensible theories in favour of Church mandated ideology. They saw shadows of the Earth on the moon, horizons and hundreds of other facts and discarded them in favour of a flat earth. The point is that the educated elite were bad scientists, rather than anything else. One would hope that at the moment, any respecable scientist would only propose theories that fit the facts, rather than those that fit their beliefs.

[Xero]

lets suppose that they are future humans, whos to say they didnt have plastic surgery or something like that, we can do it now, but why the hell not later in time 2, and maybe looking like that is "in style" like just in our time some people think being really fat is good when north america and most places think skinny is hot. Secondly if they are like from 130000 or whatever that means its gunna be a til then that we do use time travel, because everything related to time travel that we see, we go back in our time, so if they did the same thing that means the soonest they cud do it was in that year which means we got a long way 2 go

[Xero]

sry for double post

[CrimsonBlur]

lets suppose that they are future humans, whos to say they didnt have plastic surgery or something like that, we can do it now, but why the hell not later in time 2, and maybe looking like that is "in style" like just in our time some people think being really fat is good when north america and most places think skinny is hot. Secondly if they are like from 130000 or whatever that means its gunna be a til then that we do use time travel, because everything related to time travel that we see, we go back in our time, so if they did the same thing that means the soonest they cud do it was in that year which means we got a long way 2 go

who said anything about them being from 130000? If time travel is possible, I'm sure we would figure out how to accomplish it before the year 130000. By that time the Sun would be dying and expanding to engulf our planet... if it hadn't already happened. I know that wasn't serious, I'm just making a point. ALso, I doubt, in the future, the fad will be to radically change our biology to the point where we no longer look human (but who knows what evolution would do to our appearence in the extreme future).

I don't really believe aliens are us in the future, travelling back in time to meet ourselves. They've never been reported to speak to anyone at all, let alone in any language we use. I doubt in the future we will abandon all forms of verbal communication, and if we did, we would still have some way of using it still, even if we had evolved such that we could no longer literally speak. Anyone heard of speakers? Hell, by then, we would have the technology to create sound without the things that we currently use as "speakers". None of these things add up, really. Why would we be doing experiments on ourselves from the past? We just finished the Human Genome, and we are mapping it even further and finding out more about our biology every day. Why, in the future, with more technology, would we have to go back in time to abduct ourselves and study our past biology? I just don't think that makes any sense...

It is always fun talking about time travel and its possibilities, and about science and history, but I personally don't believe the "alien" theory can be rationalized by saying it is human time travellers from the future that have been through some sort of radical evolutionary process. If the reported actions of these visiting beings were not what they are, then my opinion may be different, but considering what these supposed visitors are doing when they get here, and also what they are NOT doing, leads me to believe they are in fact from another world (if they exist at all).

[Hum]

:laugh: Remember that many things are 'impossible' simply because you BELIEVE them to be. Thoughts create the reality you experience. Disbelief can block out what's True.

Oh Ye of Little Faith ... :happy:

[syphern]

i started a new thread guys i felt this one went a little off topic.... (in my opinion and it was too long)

Edited December 9, 2003 by syphern

[Miran]

Speed of light never claims to be the fastest - tachyons are known to travel faster than light.

The key is picture a car that wants to go faster - you make the engine bigger and faster it goes. Well the speed of light is the point where if you add more engine capacity you will weigh it down to the point where you require even more engine capacity just to go as fast as before with the smaller engine - you require more power than possibly yieldable from any mass - thus you require infinite mass.

Wormholes would be the likely loophole. Or gravitational bubbles in space-time, or even entanglement to send information that can "fax" an atomic copy of ourselves to an already established waypoint, and destroy the original atomic makeup of ourselves.

I'm sure things will be figured out. Going faster ultimately isn't the answer - you are slowed by relativity. The answer is to make the distance shorter.

tachyons have also never been found.

[Miran]

:laugh: Remember that many things are 'impossible' simply because you BELIEVE them to be. Thoughts create the reality you experience. Disbelief can block out what's True.

Oh Ye of Little Faith ... :happy:

That's funny because the process of thinking and believing is a chemical process bounded by the physical laws of the known universe.

[grimreaper]

i dont think our heada are gonna get any bigger in the future, cos we are only usin 10% of our brain power rite? so instead of hugh heads we just use more brain power.

oh wha r tachyons?