Drov Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 I've heard both sides of the argument..The whole day of the shooting is pretty much a mystery i'd say...not enough information and too many assumptions made by 2 angles of not even the same thing. I've seen a the rifle that was used...like an actual one for that year during a presentation at school..and there is no way it could have been fired with accuracy that quickly. but maybe once u know.. what i thought was damning were the photographs of oswald holding the rifle where the body shadow and head shadow dont line up correctly.. Take in mind, Oswald was a trained sniper and his grades from that training are proof enough he was capable of doing this act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
senior Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 I heard during the presentation that he took the test over 15 times before passing.. i dunno tho not going to act like i know or care..just found it all very interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrA Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 NSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejk158 Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 JoGro123, i was watching those also, and i must have missed that part of it. can u tell me what movie shows the second gunman cause i wanna try and see it, is it the zapruder video, or a different one that i should be looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trashpickinman Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 has anyone downloaded hte video of the assination. teh one shown in the past was in b/w and they cut out hte frames where the 2nd bullit hit. that rules out hte fact there was a single bullit, immediatly proving hte results of the Warren Commision wrong. he is shot in the (picture being in his position) head about 3-4inches behind his right temple. I have, although got it off the net, so no way to be sure if its 100% accurate or not, but the video does show his head and body moving to the left and rear of the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geo Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 I saw something about this on tv, and to me it looks like he was shot from the front, his head was forced backward and blood splatted back too, i dont understand how that could happend from the back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriscustom Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 (edited) the man who knows all and aided in plot is the still alive hint: E.M.K. when he is dead all will be revealed. Edited December 8, 2003 by chriscustom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nexus- Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 would like to find and watch that video sad to say i wanted to see that special but missed it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattmatik Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 why would the CIA do it? And why should we believe otherwise? Is there some amazing thing surrounding his death that points to other than one guy shooting him? Why would the CIA do it? Well, for starters, the FBI was headed by J. Edgar Hoover, but he also had ALOT of people in the CIA and alot of information that could basically bring down anybody in the world. He was a corrupted man, meaning, he used his job clearance to get the power he had. He had some inside stuff on JFK and his flings with other women, which would have totally ruined the president's image. You have to remember, America loved JFK. They loved his calmness, his truthfulness, his social skills, his looks, and his family. Everyone wanted to be like the First Family (I got alot of stories from my parents about when they were kids). Of course, the ultimate straw that Hoover drew was the fact that JFK did NOT ever want to take military action. He was a diplomat, he got into politics being a diplomat, and most of all, his own father was a diplomat being Ambassador to France. Plus, since he had been in WWII, he knew what war was like and avoided it at all costs. Now, once the Cold War was brewing, there were many Generals and other military and government officials who felt America was better than the Soviet Union. They wanted to show who was boss and felt that nobody could mess with us. Well, once the Soviets started mingling around with Cuba and, ultimately, using Cuba as a "home away from home", JFK was forced to either use diplomatic resolution or military force. Naturally, he chose diplomacy (with the help and advice from his brother, Bobby) and this ****ed off alot of those military and government people. Well, once the Cold War ended, or fizzled out, the crap with Vietnam started surfacing, and again, JFK felt there was no need to have an American intervention, and thus, he began the formalities of withdrawing American troops from Vietnam. Now, that is two times America could have showed it's dominance in the world, and now they were going to end a 2nd war without it ever starting. To make stories short, JFK was assassinated, Lyndon B. Johnson was put into office (by default - he was VP) and he started up Vietnam again and the rest is history. Of course, there's also alot of documentation and other factual evidence that JFK didn't really want to get involved in Communist activities. He was pulling out of Vietnam, he didn't want to go to war with the Soviets, he didn't want to have Fidel Castro assassinated; basically people thought he was soft on Communism and felt JFK was a danger to America. People say Oswald acted alone, that he did it all himself, etc etc. Whatever. I don't care if a 75 year old man pulled of 3 shots in 7 seconds. Did he do it from a book depository and hit a moving target? Did he somehow manage to explain the magic bullet? Jesus, you can see in the Zapruder film that JFK's head went backward. You can see his head basically split in half. There's no way the bullet went into JFK's head from the back, his head goes backward, and the bullet still has enough momentum to hit the man in the front seat (one of Kennedy's cabinet officials, I think.) If anyone saw the week-long documentaries The History Channel did this year on the Anniversary, you can easily see that people knew it was going to happen, people wanted it to happen, and that, my friends, makes it a conspiracy. Why did the head official of the NSA in the second car tell the two Secret Service men to stop running alongside the president's car? Why does JFK's "official" autopsy photos show a hole in his neck and his head NOT split open? How did Jack Ruby get that close to Oswald to kill him? And Oswald was a pain in the ass but he wasn't stupid. He wouldn't have left the damn murder weapon there in the room where he shot from. And why has people been murdered just from researching the event? Those of you who believe that it was "proven" Oswald did it, that it's over and the government told the truth, you are entitled to your opinion. But, you're also naive. Not one single comment in that Warren Commission can be proven with a doubt. It's all doubt. They didn't prove anything. They covered up a serious act by many important people. Why lie? There's no way they solved that case in one day, there's no way they proved Oswald was the killer once they found him in the theater. He was set up, he was used. With our technology today, we still couldn't prove a case in that quick of time. It would take weeks. Months. In America, you are innocent until PROVEN guilty. As far as I know, Oswald was never tried and found guilty. Instead, his trial was being murdered. If anyone has a rebuttal, please, feel free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snippet1 Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 I have, although got it off the net, so no way to be sure if its 100% accurate or not, but the video does show his head and body moving to the left and rear of the car. Well that angle is exactly that of the hole in the fence on the grassy knoll. -Discovery Channel, 'Murder Most Foul' special Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graeme_7799 Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 everyone knows it was a CIA coverup. everyone was in on it. JFK was going to reveal a secret to the nation but the CIA and other government agencies planned his death to cover up. very old news.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dior_addict Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 I saw something about this on tv, and to me it looks like he was shot from the front, his head was forced backward and blood splatted back too, i dont understand how that could happend from the back Exactly. The shot that was "fired" into the his neck, caused Kennedy's head to "lurch back" forcefully. If the bullet was shot from where Oswald was, according to the law of physics, would cause his head to lurch forwad...Therefore, *I* belive that there was another gunmen involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whipper25 Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 the best resource center about the assassination of jfk: jfk lancer research take a look at the forums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova_rock Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Until something new get out this is about the only one were i do think that there is a cover-up Oswald was a communist, he 'defected' as could have been done those days, and after a while he came back to the USA, and he tried, several times a month before the assassination to contact both the soviets and Cubans through their embassy, I believe in Mexico, and basically they wanted to get rid of him so they said go to America and be a good communist. He shot Kennedy I'm pretty sure that the soviets dropped a load A movie came out a bit before then and was yanked form theaters, it was called The Manchurian Candidate look it up if you have time it's a bit obvious to see why it got pulled but basically, I think that to avoid war the FBI made him out to be a lone man, he pretty much was but if people thought he was a soviet agent, that would not have made history form 1969 on very fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evulfun Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 JFK Stuff Check this site out, there is alot of stuff here if you have never heard or read anything about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dARKSTAr Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 It was Oswald. After JFK, I was completely convinced that there was a conspiracy, so I did an in-depth study of the events. I did thesis papers about it in college, wrote papers about the subject just for my own interest. I actually read the Warren Commission Report (which many conspiracy theorists haven't although they claim to have), did extensive research into any research done by the government on the subject (including Garrison's trial about the matter). I was even thinking of writing a book about the subject because I had become so immersed in the subject. The more I learned about the subject, the more it becomes clear that it was Oswald, and I was someone wanting to find out it was Oswald, so my investigation at first was biased towards Oswald. But the more you learn about him, the more you know that it was him and only him. Most conspiracy theorists will never be convinced that it wasn't a conspiracy. It is just too hard to accept that the most important "somebody" in the world, was killed by one of the most complete "nobody's", so these theories are cooked up that it was the Russians, or the Cubans or the Mafia or the CIA. I'm not going to get into some nonsensical discussion with Conspiracy theorists about the assasination. I have no interest in trying to prove my theories. But I will point to a few things of interest. One is the "back and to the left" argument. This is the "kill shot" of Kennedy showing his head snapping back and to the left. EMT's, Cops, Soldiers, etc will tell you that the human body reacts many different ways to a shot to the head. One of the best people to ask about this is soldiers who have seen bloody combat. Go talk to a Vietnam Vet, WW2 or Korean War Vet who have seen actual combat and they will give you many examples of a body acting strangely to being shot. Another is that the "Kill Shot" was the second time JFK was shot. The first shot was the "magic bullet" shot. On the Zapruder film, JFK is seen reacting to this shot by grabbing at his throat with both hands. Mrs. Kennedy starts pulling her husband toward her and down, then the Kill Shot hits Kennedy from behind. One of the best web sites illustrating this shot is found here. A few other things and then I'll give you a few places to look if you want to see some of the best "anti-conspiracy" sites and ideas. One of the best investigations of the Assasination was done by ABC News at the anniversary of the assasination called The Kennedy Assassination: Beyond Conspiracy. This show gives interviews with Oswald's brother, points out Oswald's attempted assasination of another man just weeks before Kennedy (a fact very rarely pointed out by others) and has a computer model of the assasination, which is one of the best tools to understanding the events that happened in Dealey Plaza that day. The BBC had a great review of the program, the review can be found here. One of the great things about the special and the computer model of the assasination is that it correctly shows the seat that Governor Connelly was sitting in. Most conspiracy theorists (including the film JFK) shows Connelly sitting directly in front of Kennedy. Hence the 'magic bullet". If Connelly was sitting directly in front of Kennedy, then the ridiculousness of the magic bullet theory makes sense. But Connelly was sitting in front of Kennedy and to the left on a special seat for that Limo called a jump seat. When Connelly is correctly positioned, then the magic bullet is suddenly not a magic bullet but a straight line from the book depository, through Kennedy and into Connelly. Disproving the magic bullet is always a huge blow to conspiracy theorists, and the computer model shown in the ABC Special is the best tool I've ever seen to examine the assasination. One of the biggest distortions of the Kennedy assasination, and the biggest single event that jump started the dying conspiracy movement, was Oliver Stone's movie JFK. One of the best websites that shows the actual truth behind the movie, is the one called The JFK 100. This website debunks nearly every scene in the movie. JFK was a slickly made movie, but it is a movie rivaling Leni Riefenstahl's pro-nazi movie Triumph of the Will as the best example of pure out and out propaganda. Another site debunking the movie JFK is found here. The links found at the bottom of this site are also interesting about the incident and the movie. Chad Zimmerman has also done a great job examining the assasination. His site can be found here. Another superb site can be found here. Another huge misconception about the assasination is that hardly any information about the assasination has been released and won't be released for decades to come. Kevin Costner as Jim Garrison gives an impassioned speech in JFK about this. But this is no longer true. Ironically, JFK did one great thing and that is it forced the issue into the media and put pressure on the government and so the government was compelled to release nearly all the records. Excerpts can be found here as well as many other places. I know this is a long read, but the loony conspiracy theories (most spawned from JFK) need to be debunked. I'm not going to get into some discussion with theorists about the issues surrounding the assasination. I've given you some great places to get started if you want to know about the assasination and my views. My views would mirror about 99% of what is found on these websites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japlabot Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 hey darkstar, maybe you should write a book, and put everything you know into the one resource ;) (Y) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danshome Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Exactly. The shot that was "fired" into the his neck, caused Kennedy's head to "lurch back" forcefully. If the bullet was shot from where Oswald was, according to the law of physics, would cause his head to lurch forwad...Therefore, *I* belive that there was another gunmen involved. If you fire a bullet into a head, ignoring all the extraneous things such as involuntary body movement and the like, the head will move TOWARDS the bullet not away from it. Think about it simply - the point at which the bullet impacts the skull is extremely small. To physically move the head, the force of impact would have to be enormous and in transferring the kinetic energy from the bullet to the head, the bullet would lose a large part of its forward momentum. Put simply, bullets aren't designed to do this - they're designed to penetrate. Most types of rifle bullets are designed to penetrate directly through the body and exit the other side (not all - some bullets are designed to "explode" inside the body, but they have a very distinctive - and messy - effect). When a bullet is shot through the head and comes out the other side, it is still moving at a fairly high velocity and transmits almost no energy to the skull (as above). On the other hand, it DOES "pull" brain matter with it, which is forced out as a jet from the exit wound. This jet can force the head to move and, because it comes from the exit wound, the head will move towards the bullet, not away from it. Of course there are a number of factors that effect things - involuntary body movement from the distruction of nerve tissue, break-up of the cranium, etc. However in the abscence of mitigating factors, the head should move towards the bullet - the opposite of the normal assumption. If you're particularly bored, happen to have a rifle a large quantity of melons and some packing tape, give it a go yourself. Wrap the melons in tape (to hold them together and create a "skull"), stand them a reasonable distance away and try and shoot them. They will, almost without exception, move towards the gun. For a great demonstration of this, check out Penn And Teller's "Playing With Food" book (great fun!). It is considered bad taste to have a second melon in a pink pillbox hat. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honoriak Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 great exposations guys.. you amaze me (Y) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newsgeek Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 JFK StuffCheck this site out, there is alot of stuff here if you have never heard or read anything about it. I guess you missed my above post... :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noir Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 If Oswald was such a good marksman how come he missed the first bullet? And after that he gradually improved his shots, sounds to good to be true. 1 = miss, 2 = shoulder, 3 = headshot He also tried to take out a general some time before and missed a much simpler shot on the closer not moving target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stokkolm Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 You have to know the ballistics of a gun shot and espcially one from that angle and with that caliber of bullet. Oswald was supposedly behind him...you don't have to be a genious to figure out that his head should have went forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redFX Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 There was an FBI report on one of the .gov sites, forgot which one that explained the FBI's final report on the issue. Basically, it says the feds have a picture from the event of the three people who shot kenedy. They also have names. None of the three are alive today. They all died. There is a documentory being made about this report last I herd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redFX Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 One more thing, Oswald was a patriot. Oswald was a US spy working undercover to find communists. The senator or whoever he was that was also shot during the kenedy shooting is lobying for this information to be released so that Oswalds name is cleared. He also wants to make sure Oswald is honored for his duty to his country. He was the scape goat when the US authorities didn't know what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrike Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 I voted for 'other', because maybe both parties contributed to his death, and I don't know the real answer (like many others). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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