SpaceShipTwo 'Enterprise' crashes

[flyingskippy]

Hybrid or not, the safety concerns regarding solid rocket engines are understandable.

They may be able to throttle it, cut it off, but it still involves in this case burning of a material at high pressure inside a casing inside the fuselage of an aircraft.

I just hope that this has little effect on SpaceX and CCdev.

[+LogicalApex MVC]

hopefully not, but it's a young market that's still in development, and we know from history that such things can easily be dealt a quick and early death from such events. I suspect there's to much prestige and money behind these to stop them now though, but  it might depend on how many prototypes they have flying, it they have any more, and how much time and money it would take to get the next one ready. It also helps that we have several companies competing in this market which should help prevent a complete shutdown IF the government don't f it up and step in and shut down everything for months and months while they hire consultants and set up groups to decide if this stuff should still be allowed or if it's to dangerous. 

I disagree slightly, but agree overall. My only area of disagreement is in the governmental reaction. Hopefully, this will result in some more governmental involvement in an attempt to formulate safety plans to minimize deaths as this field progresses.

 

For instance, we didn't get a life boat for every cruise going person until the Titanic. Not comparing this to the Titanic overall, but just saying that if there is anything that can be done to improve safety or survivability hopefully this is added in. It could save us from having a mega disaster later if, and when, this becomes a normal mode of travel. It could also help to restore a sense of trust between the public and the start-ups spearheading this endeavor.

[malenfant]

Hell. And a major selling point of the hybrid was its comparative safety. Virgin Galactic is over I think.

Plenty of people are not risk averse and have deep pockets, think Technical Divers, Climbers. Aerobatic Pilots, etc. What's telling is those types control the risks to the greatest extent possible. Are there sufficient numbers of joyriders to support a business given that the risks look to have been downplayed?

[HawkMan]

I disagree slightly, but agree overall. My only area of disagreement is in the governmental reaction. Hopefully, this will result in some more governmental involvement in an attempt to formulate safety plans to minimize deaths as this field progresses.

 

For instance, we didn't get a life boat for every cruise going person until the Titanic. Not comparing this to the Titanic overall, but just saying that if there is anything that can be done to improve safety or survivability hopefully this is added in. It could save us from having a mega disaster later if, and when, this becomes a normal mode of travel. It could also help to restore a sense of trust between the public and the start-ups spearheading this endeavor.

 

Honestly, while I don't disagree that we need government oversight for safety, at this point in time it's to early, they're still experimental craft.  and lets face it if they get involved now, they'll create a commission that will site down, and they'll set a stop to all active testing while they formulate a plan and strategy and decide on what to do, which means that these companies will be stuck doing theoretical work for at least a year, probably more since then they'll spend even more time after that creating actual regulations. 

 

Also I believe they already have safety regulations as they're covered under the same safety regulations as airlines. 

[+LogicalApex MVC]

Honestly, while I don't disagree that we need government oversight for safety, at this point in time it's to early, they're still experimental craft.  and lets face it if they get involved now, they'll create a commission that will site down, and they'll set a stop to all active testing while they formulate a plan and strategy and decide on what to do, which means that these companies will be stuck doing theoretical work for at least a year, probably more since then they'll spend even more time after that creating actual regulations. 

 

Also I believe they already have safety regulations as they're covered under the same safety regulations as airlines. 

I don't hope that they stop development of crafts during, but I do hope they investigate what went wrong and what steps can be taken to minimize it occurring again and/or improve the survivability of the humans on board. There may be lessons learned that can be applied to all crafts. Additionally, if done right this is the best time to get such changes in place. Especially with the early stages of the crafts.

 

It would be a major mistake to leave the vast majority of the investigation and/or improvements to Virgin alone.

 

At least this is my opinion.

[HawkMan]

It's fairly safe to assume that the aviation crash guys will be investigating what happened, here, well actually I'm not sure, since I guess this is still classified as a experimental craft, I'm not sure how investigations of experimental craft are handled actually.  but since they share airspace with commercial craft I would assume they would be subject to most of the same regulations and investigations.

[+LogicalApex MVC]

It's fairly safe to assume that the aviation crash guys will be investigating what happened, here, well actually I'm not sure, since I guess this is still classified as a experimental craft, I'm not sure how investigations of experimental craft are handled actually.  but since they share airspace with commercial craft I would assume they would be subject to most of the same regulations and investigations.

I imagine this is the case as well, but I also don't know for certain. The question that needs to be evaluated is whether or not these need to be treated separately from aircraft and, if so, how?

 

Overall, my point is the government shouldn't wait until we have a Titanic like disaster with hundreds of private space flights per year or day before they start to formulate safety plans and regulations around private space flights.

[DocM]

Didn't they just change the fuel type for this flight?

Yes. The usual fuel grain for hybrids is a synthetic rubber with additives. This didn't deliver enough performance, so a new grain using a nylon-like polymer was created. They've been testing it for some time on the test stand, and this was its first flight.

There's been controversy about the hybrid engine and it's failure modes. During a ground test a few years ago an SS2 nitrous oxide tank exploded, killing some of the crew. Other company's hybrids have exploded when a chunk of fuel grain broke off and clogged the exhaudt nozzle. Today the VG body count rose by at least one.

VG has been working on the Newton family of liquid rocket engines, and AIUI recently turned their development over tons Google funded team.

If they're to continue, and SS2 #2 is already under construction, an engine change is DEFINITELY in order. Should have been done after the ground test incident.

[123456789A]

What kind of rocket was it?

[DocM]

What kind of rocket was it?

A manned suborbital spaceplane designed to carry 2 pilots and 4-6 passengers. It was also to carry suborbital NASA and research payloads.

The engine is a hybrid rocket. Instead of being all solid fuel & oxidizer like the shuttle SRB's or an ICBM, or all liquids like most large rockets like Atlas V or Falcon 9, a hybrid uses a liquid oxidizer and a solid fuel. Basically, this allows a solid rocket to be throttled, shut down, and restarted. They usually cannot.

[HawkMan]

DocM how is the FAA regulations in regards to experimental aircraft and sub orbital spacecraft ? Are experimentals under the same crash investigation rules as regular aircraft ?  I know for private people experimental classified means you can fly pretty much anything if it passes inspection.  And for big operations like this, I wouls assume experimental have some leeway in regards to investigations as it's probably more important for the manufacturer to find out what went wrong than the FAA since the only people on board are test pilots, for the very purpose of testing the craft 

[Dot Matrix]

What kind of rocket was it?

 

[Unobscured Vision]

Very sad. :(

 

I hope they get it all sorted. My thoughts and prayers go out to the Pilots, their loved ones and VG as a whole. Terrible day for them.

[DocM]

DocM how is the FAA regulations in regards to experimental aircraft and sub orbital spacecraft ? Are experimentals under the same crash investigation rules as regular aircraft ? I know for private people experimental classified means you can fly pretty much anything if it passes inspection. And for big operations like this, I wouls assume experimental have some leeway in regards to investigations as it's probably more important for the manufacturer to find out what went wrong than the FAA since the only people on board are test pilots, for the very purpose of testing the craft

The investigation rules are similar.

They are similar to experimental aircraft with passengers flying under assumed risk. No super detailed type certification like with an airliner.

Others developing a similar suborbital spaceplane (but with liquid engines) are XCOR and Airbus, plus a few other smaller groups in several nations.

[Hum]

I'm getting my money back.

[+Warwagon MVC]

Wonder if they will release a video.

[DocM]

There are some high quality videos and images, but I imagine out of deference to the families they may not air right away on networks. YouTube is another matter.

Sierra Nevada Corp, who no longer provides hybrid engines to VG, says this,

SNC had no involvement in the build or qualification testing of the motor used in this flight, nor in the integration of this motor to SS2. SNC was not engaged in any manner in the pre-flight safety or technical approvals or in the flight operations of the mission conducted today. We were not aware of the test today, nor present on site or remotely monitoring the testing.

[Dot Matrix]

[DocM]

https://twitter.com/spacecom/status/528320460916658176

ParabolicArc @spacecom

Just talked to Ken Brown. Pictures show Engine fired fine, then there's a white plume. He thinks the nitrous oxide tank blew

[DocM]

[neufuse Veteran]

that doesn't look like the kind of explosion youd expect form a rocket, wondering if it was the NO2 tank that went

[Chris123NT]

that doesn't look like the kind of explosion youd expect form a rocket, wondering if it was the NO2 tank that went

Definitely looks that way, which is telling because a NO2 tank blew during one of the ground tests a while back didn't it?

[DocM]

Yup. A few years back during a ground test one of their nitrous oxide tanks blew, killing 3 and injuring a few more. Back then people wondered why they didn't march down the line to XCOR and ask them to build a liquid engine cluster for SS2 but it didn't happen.

XCOR has made extremely reusable LOX-kerpsene, LOX-hydrogen and LOX-methane engines for themselves (the Lynx spaceplane), Boeing, NASA and others.

[FloatingFatMan]

Wonder if they will release a video.

 

On January 28, 1986, I watched 7 brave astronauts die when the Space Shuttle Challenger exploded 73 seconds after launch.  I will -never- forget that sight, and I don't ever want to see anything like it again.

[DocM]

Doug Messier has been covering the happenings at the Mojave Spaceport for years, and knew the Virgin Galactic pilots well since it's a tight community. He's also been a primary reporter of SS2's development problems. For a long time some thought he was overreacting. Not any more.

http://www.parabolicarc.com/2014/11/01/sky-crying/

The Sky is Crying

by Doug Messier (ParabolicArc)

November 1, 2014, at 12:56 am

Its just after midnight here in Mojave. The last past 14 hours have been traumatic for everyone here, for reasons I need not explain.

Friday started out as a typical fall day here. Cool with clear skies and a light breeze. Perfect flying weather.

But, sometime just after 10 oclock in the morning, something went terribly wrong in the skies over the desert. The pride of a still nascent commercial space industry came apart high in the air for reasons still as yet known, falling to Earth in pieces. One brave test pilot died, another struggles to survive.

He was not the first pilot to die in these skies. Many military and civilian test pilots preceded him, putting their lives on the line flying experimental aircraft. It takes a special kind of person to take those risks, and to accept the consequences that go with them. We must never forget their bravery and courage.

My thoughts and prayers go out to everyone at Virgin Galactic, Scaled Composites and The SpaceShip Company who lost a colleague and friend today. And my deepest condolences to his family.

I was deeply shaken by what I saw today. What they are experiencing must be a million times worse. And I cant even imagine that.

There are several theories about what caused this tragedy. Was it the new propulsion system? A structural failure? Or something else nobody saw coming?

That answer will come with time. The NTSB knows what its doing.

Healing will take much longer.

Friday began bright and sunny, a day full of promise that quickly brought tragedy. As I write this early on Saturday, a cold hard rain is lashing at my windows. Thats a good thing. We need it.

And it feels right. The sky is crying, adding to an ocean of tears shed here today.

(