Will Microsoft pay indie developers their September Payment before Christmas?

[George P Global Moderator]

This only dragged on for a few months, they should have been paid by the end of September, because it only effected a small number and to top it off not all of the effected developers even noticed it themselves after a few others did. When the effected party doesn't notice they haven't been paid in a few months then MS missing the error isn't hard to fathom. This is the negative side to using something that's probably fully automated.

[BajiRav]

Yes let's bring up PSN hacks/hacking in general to compare to MS not being able to do accounting properly for months. Spot on comparison.

Hence why I said people take their heads out of their backsides and stop making everything console wars or pandering to excuses. This went on for months, that's inexcusable when the little guy gets screwed, hopefully it's now fixed, and internet outrage will have saved the day again.

The comparison is apt when you notice that I compared Microsoft to Sony and not Xbox to PlayStation.

Which little guy you are talking about? Those who didn't notice that they were not getting paid until they were told?

My point is simple that Microsoft's automated system is ######ed up and this is not some sinister plot by them to screw "the little guy who is starving since September" as some here are suggesting.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

The comparison is apt when you notice that I compared Microsoft to Sony and not Xbox to PlayStation.

Which little guy you are talking about? Those who didn't notice that they were not getting paid until they were told?

My point is simple that Microsoft's automated system is ######ed up and this is not some sinister plot by them to screw "the little guy who is starving since September" as some here are suggesting.

Your eyes should allow you to see these devs have been emailing and complaining to MS for a while. During past months as well when MS haven't paid on time. What sane person forgets their payday?

Have you even read the article(s)? Or just the title and the MS response?

[fintechfooty]

Why would they? These devs are very small time\amateur. I've only purchase one xbox 360 live indie(XBLIG) game and it was a crappy minecraft clone. The top sellers are all minecraft clones.

 

Way cheaper to source from amateur devs then try and get the big ones to jump on board. Microsoft don't even have a solid foundation in terms of development besides the current software team it has. Instead of outsourcing and hoping devs jump on board why not create a great initiative program? They could easily lower costs by weeding out developers who are truly interested in development from those looking to make a quick buck. 

[nosense]

Way cheaper to source from amateur devs then try and get the big ones to jump on board. Microsoft don't even have a solid foundation in terms of development besides the current software team it has. Instead of outsourcing and hoping devs jump on board why not create a great initiative program? They could easily lower costs by weeding out developers who are truly interested in development from those looking to make a quick buck. 

 

Here's a list of 2012 top selling xblig games.

 

1. CastleMiner Z

2. CastleMiner

3. Total Miner: Forge

4. Avatar Deathmatch

5. FortressCraft Chapter 1

6. Murder Miners

7. The Impossible Game

8. Avatar Laser Wars 2

9. The $1 Zombie Game

10. Avatar Paintball

 

Top selling games are trying to cash in the minecraft craze. Not many good or original games came from xblig beside Mount your friends. Xblig has bunch dayz\minecraft clones. It's good to have something like steam greenlight on a console, but i have not seen an good dev came from xblig.

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

There are a lot of good XBLIGs on XBL. Far, far away from the majority compared to the catalog obviously, but it would unfair to say it's only Minecraft or DayZ clones. Every app store has its clones that try to cash in on success, but they're certainly not limited to XBLIG.

 

Lots of XBLIGs were successful enough to also expand and release fuller versions on more platforms over the years.

[BajiRav]

Your eyes should allow you to see these devs have been emailing and complaining to MS for a while. During past months as well when MS haven't paid on time. What sane person forgets their payday?

Have you even read the article(s)? Or just the title and the MS response?

I read one article when this showed up elsewhere and it was confusing XBLIG with ID@Xbox. I read few tweets and have yet to see where this started. I have yet to see a proof that Microsoft is running short on funds and hence is intentionally holding back payments.

All of you who are apparently concerned about these indie developers starving at Christmas because XBLIG screwed them, do you really think XBLIG is anywhere big enough a market that they depend on it for their livelihood? I seriously doubt it.

[nosense]

There are a lot of good XBLIGs on XBL. Far, far away from the majority compared to the catalog obviously, but it would unfair to say it's only Minecraft or DayZ clones. Every app store has its clones that try to cash in on success, but they're certainly not limited to XBLIG.

 

Lots of XBLIGs were successful enough to also expand and release fuller versions on more platforms over the years.

Which games?I haven't heard many xblig\xna games make the transition to full retail or xbox arcade.

[trooper11]

This isn't the first month this has happened. So unless you want to admit MS has had an unresolved error in their payment system for months along with what you're saying now, things do not add up.

Um, isn't it true that MS in fact did have an unresolved error in their payment system for months?

Look, I'm not some shill for a company or a fanboy, I just liked to cut through the BS and find out the facts.

MS admits there was some kind of error in their payment system, an error that resulted in some XBLIG developers not getting paid what they rightly deserve over the course of 2-4 months.

Now, if you found evidence to something else going on, then please, share it. If however, your just trying to infer that MS is being shady becuase you feel they are shady in general, then there is not much to discuss there.

People defending a massive corporation over nobody run of the mill developers need to take their heads out of their backsides for 5 minutes. Any company should pay on time every month regardless of how small an "employee" you are. Would you be happy if your employer just paid you when they wanted every month instead of on time? As crap as most of these games are, they still make money for MS.

This is not about defending anyone. What are you calling defending? Sure, anyone that would say this is not a problem or that the developers don't deserve to be paid is out of line, but just trying to stick to the facts is not defending.

How often have you been on the side of any company at all becuase not all the facts regarding a topic were available or correct?

 

Hence why I said people take their heads out of their backsides and stop making everything console wars or pandering to excuses. This went on for months, that's inexcusable when the little guy gets screwed, hopefully it's now fixed, and internet outrage will have saved the day again.

If only that internet outrage was universally applied, more good would come of it. There just isn't quite enough balance for my taste.

I'm not sure what you want. It sounds like you just want everyone to yell obscenities and grab a pitchfork. For example, I may not be raging, but I totally agree its a problem that must be fixed immediately. The only thing I have a problem with is the way some people react, the type of reaction that doesn't help the situation. MS has to correct the issues becuase these indie developers are owed money. The 'internet outrage' brings it into the public light more, but MS was not going to get away with non payment. Now, if there is proof that MS only started investigating the issue after the rage began, then you could infer that the outcry did it.

Your eyes should allow you to see these devs have been emailing and complaining to MS for a while. During past months as well when MS haven't paid on time. What sane person forgets their payday?

Have you even read the article(s)? Or just the title and the MS response?

So was MS denying any issues up until the outcry began? Have any devs mentioned how the communications went beyond the general mentions of sending emails and such that I have seen in the articles?

[Torolol]

but its convenient timing that admitting the problem 'recently' (according to MS own tweet) when it just right after the outcry began,

perhaps not denying, but ignoring the issues very likely happened, until some MS higher up decided the payment issues can't be ignored anymore.

 

I expect MS will resolve the issues with proper compensations.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Um, isn't it true that MS in fact did have an unresolved error in their payment system for months?

Look, I'm not some shill for a company or a fanboy, I just liked to cut through the BS and find out the facts.

MS admits there was some kind of error in their payment system, an error that resulted in some XBLIG developers not getting paid what they rightly deserve over the course of 2-4 months.

Now, if you found evidence to something else going on, then please, share it. If however, your just trying to infer that MS is being shady becuase you feel they are shady in general, then there is not much to discuss there.

This is not about defending anyone. What are you calling defending? Sure, anyone that would say this is not a problem or that the developers don't deserve to be paid is out of line, but just trying to stick to the facts is not defending.

How often have you been on the side of any company at all becuase not all the facts regarding a topic were available or correct?

 

If only that internet outrage was universally applied, more good would come of it. There just isn't quite enough balance for my taste.

I'm not sure what you want. It sounds like you just want everyone to yell obscenities and grab a pitchfork. For example, I may not be raging, but I totally agree its a problem that must be fixed immediately. The only thing I have a problem with is the way some people react, the type of reaction that doesn't help the situation. MS has to correct the issues becuase these indie developers are owed money. The 'internet outrage' brings it into the public light more, but MS was not going to get away with non payment. Now, if there is proof that MS only started investigating the issue after the rage began, then you could infer that the outcry did it.

So was MS denying any issues up until the outcry began? Have any devs mentioned how the communications went beyond the general mentions of sending emails and such that I have seen in the articles?

 

Read my post 2, and then read these posts and their links - http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=141540118&postcount=559 / 

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=141540763&postcount=562

 

Some of those links go back to 2012.

 

I'm not spoon feeding people who want to challenge what I'm saying, but won't do some reading.

[Skiver Veteran]

There does seem to be a genuine issue here although one of those examples seems to be a simple admin error - changed bank account details and it's paid the wrong account. Sure that sort of thing should not happen, but it can happen.

 

I do wonder though, how much of this is MS's issue and how much is the payment system which is more than likely provided by a bank or something similar?

 

I think what Trooper is trying to say is that sure it's happening, but all we are seeing is the symptom of a problem, not necessarily what the problem is itself. I don't think (and I may have missed it) any of those links can actually factually state why this is happening. which comes back to the point of, just because it's happening doesn't mean MS is the evil corporation a lot of people will claim they are.

 

Kinda off topic but an example of the world we live in. The place where I work, we have a cut off date for Overtime claims to be in so that it can be processed for the next payroll. Recently I did everything on my side, had my forms in to my boss way before cut off. He unfortunately took too long for him to do his side so by the time the form got back to me, I missed the deadline. When I spoke to HR who process the forms, despite me clearly showing I did my side and signed the forms and it taking 2 weeks for my boss to do his side, there was no exception to be made and the rules were the rules. Sure, I'm going to get my OT the next month, but it was pretty harsh all the same. I work for a tiny company in comparison but because of the processes, this was just the way it was.

 

[trooper11]

Read my post 2, and then read these posts and their links - http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=141540118&postcount=559 / 

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=141540763&postcount=562

 

Some of those links go back to 2012.

 

I'm not spoon feeding people who want to challenge what I'm saying, but won't do some reading.

 

Thanks for not insulting me too much there lol.

 

 

So I took a look through the links you shared, which are very helpful by the way.

 

I'll even break down my reaction to each instance just so you know where I'm at:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=141540118&postcount=559

 

1. Dev changed bank info and then did not recieve his next payment.  The thread ends without a resolution, so I don't know if he ever was able to get in touch with MS or if he started getting paid properly.

 

2.  There is a discussion here about how long it takes to get paid and the thread ends with the developer happy having recieved his payment and even pointing out a thread with many other developers confirming the same for that time period.  A couple posted that they hadn't yet, but they don't follow up in that thread.

 

3. This is a link to an article talking about an issue involving developers geting prepaid codes for their games.  That's not related to getting paid for their games obviously, but it certainly was an issue to be resolved.

 

4.  This is just a link to a petition, although it does give us some useful info.  MS' terms for XBLIG was that payments would roll out 45 days after the end of each quarter witha  an extra 15 days of possible delay before a developer should contact MS about missing a payment.  I don't know if the policy still works that way today, but if it does, then I would like to know what the policy is for say ID@Xbox or similar services on the ps3/ps4/wiiu to see what would be more reasonable terms. In a perfect world, I would prefer to see payments made to the developer at the time of purchase by the end user. Or maybe just being more transparent about the process would be enough.

 

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=141540763&postcount=562

 

1. This is another very interesting thread.  The thread it links to shows that some developers had not recieved payment as of the 45 day mark.  The conversation continued and within the second page of that thread, someone from MS stated that they were escalating the issue.  Then they responded again saying that an issue had been resolved and everyone should be seeing their payments within a week.  Based on the posting dates, most were commenting that they had recieved proper payment within that week time frame.  So for most in that thread, they recieved proper payment within a week of hitting the 45 day mark.

 

2.  This link was to a thread with a very similar story line.  Some developers post that they haven't recieved a payment and it had just reached the 45 day mark.  By the end of the thread (which looks like about a week of time), most had said they had recieved payment.  This time, there was no escalation or response from MS that there had been an issue.

 

 

I'm going to see if I can find more examples from beyond 2011/2012, which is the timeframe for all of these posts, but here are some conclusions I can draw:

 

1.  MS has had payment processing issues in the past, so the issue right now is not unique.  Now the reason WHY its happening this time could be different, but the general issue is not new.

 

2.  After reading the MS reps in these threads, the policy seems to have been this:  Payments are issued at the 45 day mark after a quarter ends.  That does not mean that developers get their money on that day.  There is an up to 15 day period after that before a developer might recieve payment.  Those 15 days are out of MS' hands and are due to the processing companies and banks that sit between MS and the developer. 

 

3. In all but one of those examples, the developers were getting paid within that extra 15 day window and there was no mention of a problem, but one occurance was due to an issue MS was able to correct, resulting in a week long delay of payment. So it sounds like a similar issue came up this time around, resulting in payment delays.  So it does at least give support to the idea that yes, MS does have issues with their XBLIG payment system. Without knowing exact details, who knows if this 'issue' and the one in the past are the same, but it gives some patttern.

 

4. I think MS should have been more clear about how the process worked so that developers were more well informed and able to plan around payment time frames.

 

5.  I wonder what the policy is for ID@Xbox.  I wouldnt be shocked if MS merged it with the same WP/Windows backend and that has resulted in a better situation all around. The XBLIG system clearly had issues from time to time and the policy details were not clear enough to calm fears.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Some still not paid

 

Welcome to February. Where some devs still haven't been paid. Including us.

 

Here's the official forums for reference's sake.

 

We've been pretty patient, used the boards to communicate, tried emailing back and forth with them, but nothing of substance ever materializes and we're left with nothing but empty rhetoric.

 

I don't even know what to do at this point.

 

 

 

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=150563186#post150563186

[Hedon]

Thanks for not insulting me too much there lol.

So I took a look through the links you shared, which are very helpful by the way.

I'll even break down my reaction to each instance just so you know where I'm at:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=141540118&postcount=559

1. Dev changed bank info and then did not recieve his next payment. The thread ends without a resolution, so I don't know if he ever was able to get in touch with MS or if he started getting paid properly.

2. There is a discussion here about how long it takes to get paid and the thread ends with the developer happy having recieved his payment and even pointing out a thread with many other developers confirming the same for that time period. A couple posted that they hadn't yet, but they don't follow up in that thread.

3. This is a link to an article talking about an issue involving developers geting prepaid codes for their games. That's not related to getting paid for their games obviously, but it certainly was an issue to be resolved.

4. This is just a link to a petition, although it does give us some useful info. MS' terms for XBLIG was that payments would roll out 45 days after the end of each quarter witha an extra 15 days of possible delay before a developer should contact MS about missing a payment. I don't know if the policy still works that way today, but if it does, then I would like to know what the policy is for say ID@Xbox or similar services on the ps3/ps4/wiiu to see what would be more reasonable terms. In a perfect world, I would prefer to see payments made to the developer at the time of purchase by the end user. Or maybe just being more transparent about the process would be enough.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=141540763&postcount=562

1. This is another very interesting thread. The thread it links to shows that some developers had not recieved payment as of the 45 day mark. The conversation continued and within the second page of that thread, someone from MS stated that they were escalating the issue. Then they responded again saying that an issue had been resolved and everyone should be seeing their payments within a week. Based on the posting dates, most were commenting that they had recieved proper payment within that week time frame. So for most in that thread, they recieved proper payment within a week of hitting the 45 day mark.

2. This link was to a thread with a very similar story line. Some developers post that they haven't recieved a payment and it had just reached the 45 day mark. By the end of the thread (which looks like about a week of time), most had said they had recieved payment. This time, there was no escalation or response from MS that there had been an issue.

I'm going to see if I can find more examples from beyond 2011/2012, which is the timeframe for all of these posts, but here are some conclusions I can draw:

1. MS has had payment processing issues in the past, so the issue right now is not unique. Now the reason WHY its happening this time could be different, but the general issue is not new.

2. After reading the MS reps in these threads, the policy seems to have been this: Payments are issued at the 45 day mark after a quarter ends. That does not mean that developers get their money on that day. There is an up to 15 day period after that before a developer might recieve payment. Those 15 days are out of MS' hands and are due to the processing companies and banks that sit between MS and the developer.

3. In all but one of those examples, the developers were getting paid within that extra 15 day window and there was no mention of a problem, but one occurance was due to an issue MS was able to correct, resulting in a week long delay of payment. So it sounds like a similar issue came up this time around, resulting in payment delays. So it does at least give support to the idea that yes, MS does have issues with their XBLIG payment system. Without knowing exact details, who knows if this 'issue' and the one in the past are the same, but it gives some patttern.

4. I think MS should have been more clear about how the process worked so that developers were more well informed and able to plan around payment time frames.

5. I wonder what the policy is for ID@Xbox. I wouldnt be shocked if MS merged it with the same WP/Windows backend and that has resulted in a better situation all around. The XBLIG system clearly had issues from time to time and the policy details were not clear enough to calm fears.

Great reply and nice to see MS is indeed paying people. I see all that work you went through typing out your post fell on deaf ears.

Kudos to an eloquent and well researched reply.

[trooper11]

Some still not paid

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=150563186#post150563186

I know this has been a while, but I thought I would update anyone that was interested that I looked through both the NeoGAF thread and the MS forum thread.

It looks like most developers have been paid now and the lingering few have been directly contacted by MS to resolve the issue.

The NeoGAF thread is tough to read through considering it was hijacked by non developers wishing to argue unrelated points or just attack MS. The last developer posting in that thread that was being helped by MS was disappointed in the initial lack of communication, but was happy with their support once it got up the chain so to speak.

Since these payment issues seem to still be related to an issue in their system being used on the 360 and NOT the X1, hopefully this type of issue isn't a concern for developers going forward.