The Order: 1886

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+Audioboxer
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Actually the PS4 can barely do 1080p 60fps. Hence why you don't find 1080p 60fps locked games on it. The PS4 is grossly under powered. These black bars helped resolve that.

 

 

i think its pretty obvious that the bars were more than likely for performance.  Just cause it runs other games at 1080p 60fps does not mean it can run this one.  All the effects and such are way more taxing and this game has a lot.  Even with the bars its still the best looking game IMO on the ps4.  They probably decided at some point that adding some bars and enhancing all the effects outweighed setting it to a full 1080p for the directors vision.  Also I believe them when they say its to make it feel like a movie.  Anyone who has played this game can tell you it feels more like watching a long decent movie than playing a good game.

 

Not sure why this is the focal point of this game though.  Almost everyone that has played it will tell you its the best looking game on ps4 but its short and the story is not that good. 

 

The game runs at 30FPS....

 

Nearly every PS4 game that is 30FPS is 1080p (If not all of them, I can't think of one example myself. BF4 is 60FPS at 900p. edit: AC Unity is one, but we all know the effort Ubi put into that game).

 

To be clear, x800 with 4xMSAA needs more bandwidth than x1080 would, so 1080 no MS would be cheaper.

 

 

The aspect ratio is a core artistic choice (frame, FOV, etc), added performance is a bonus but nowhere near crucial

 

 

 

http://www.dualshockers.com/2014/02/06/the-order-1886-will-have-4x-aa-undecided-between-1920x800-and-1920x1080-lack-of-multiplayer-expained/

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Hedon
Posted

What else would the developers say? Everyone knows the black bars are for performance reasons. The news consoles were released under powered. Complete bottlenecks. But that have been proven game after game, which is why we don't have the 1080p 60fps games.

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gohpep
Posted

Even a Ready at Dawn developer said that The Order 1886 was really close to squeezing the maximum power out of the Playstation 4.

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Polonium
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What else would the developers say? Everyone knows the black bars are for performance reasons. The news consoles were released under powered. Complete bottlenecks. But that have been proven game after game, which is why we don't have the 1080p 60fps games.

Does it matter? Really?
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+Audioboxer
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What else would the developers say? Everyone knows the black bars are for performance reasons. The news consoles were released under powered. Complete bottlenecks. But that have been proven game after game, which is why we don't have the 1080p 60fps games.

As I've said before what does 60FPS have to do with anything? The game is 30FPS. Putting that into a statistical comparison with other PS4 games, 95% of those at 30FPS run at 1080p.

I see you post developer quotes around the forums fairly often, recently it was Driveclub, not long ago Halo. You don't seem to have much of an issue posting quotes by them to explain things, but for RAD, they're clearly lying and deceiving?

Maybe if the game ran without AA you could infer they were struggling to hit 1080p in 16:9. However to go and apply 4xMSAA, something rarely seen, does that really suggest the game was struggling to run? If something is struggling you reduce resolution or fidelity to get it to run okay. You don't reduce one thing and then maximise something else as equally if not more power hungry.

It simply seems certain people are desperate to put performance issues and PS4 in the one sentence. That might be fair in many discussions, but to try and cobble that statement together against what is clearly a graphical masterpiece just makes you seem silly.

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Hedon
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As I've said before what does 60FPS have to do with anything? The game is 30FPS. Putting that into a statistical comparison with other PS4 games, 95% of those at 30FPS run at 1080p.

I see you post developer quotes around the forums fairly often, recently it was Driveclub, not long ago Halo. You don't seem to have much of an issue posting quotes by them to explain things, but for RAD, they're clearly lying and deceiving?

Maybe if the game ran without AA you could infer they were struggling to hit 1080p in 16:9. However to go and apply 4xMSAA, something rarely seen, does that really suggest the game was struggling to run? If something is struggling you reduce resolution or fidelity to get it to run okay. You don't reduce one thing and then maximise something else as equally if not more power hungry.

It simply seems certain people are desperate to put performance issues and PS4 in the one sentence. That might be fair in many discussions, but to try and cobble that statement together against what is clearly a graphical masterpiece just makes you seem silly.

But that's the thing. The PS4 IS under powered (as is the X1).

BTW I also quoted RAD stating what they said about it being an artistic choice. But to make that choice and be sure they could reach their goals they also compensated for the lack of juice in these already dated consoles.

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+Audioboxer
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But that's the thing. The PS4 IS under powered (as is the X1).

BTW I also quoted RAD stating what they said about it being an artistic choice. But to make that choice and be sure they could reach their goals they also compensated for the lack of juice in these already dated consoles.

 

It's a bit of an occams razor insight here for me.

 

If the game struggled to do 1920x1080/30 stable, then you scale it back to reach 30FPS. When you have to scale something back you take it to the highest possible solution to hit your stable framerate. Why would you do anything else? You want the best possible graphical fidelity at a stable framerate. If they done that, as any dev would, that would leave no room to introduce something as resource intensive as 4xmsaa. In the quotes I highlighted they even said themselves, 1920x800 with 4xmsaa is harder to do than 1920x1080 with no AA. That isn't an outlandish claim, any PC gamer will know how taxing it can be to apply a high level of AA.

 

Take a look at console games, can you name any other one with 4xmsaa? That in itself is proof at how difficult it is to introduce a high level of AA. A lot of console games regardless of resolution have a very poor level of AA, jaggies aren't hard to find.

 

So to conclude if the game really did need to drop the resolution to hit 30FPS, where did the ability to introduce 4xmsaa come from? Running at 1920x1080 you're not going to get 4xmsaa, too much for these consoles, but 1920x800 isn't so far away from 1920x1080 (it's more taxing than 900p as proven already) that it would seem soo outlandish that The Order could run at 1920x1080 with no AA, or a very basic method of AA.

 

Couple that with a history of 1080/30 on the PS4 for an abundance of games (open world/FPS/TPS, all genres really), and it really seems to be grasping to make the connection many of you are trying to in suggesting they couldn't do a version of The Order at 1920x1080, but without 4xmsaa.

 

Like it or not graphical fidelity has gone up with the choice of 1920x800, it hasn't gone down in comparison to other PS4 games at 1920x1080 like other games becoming blurrier (usually happens when a game has to upscale or stretch textures). Hence why The Order is being called the best looking PS4 game to date. 

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Ironman273
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I don't know if you realize this but that's exactly what everyone is saying!  It is the most graphically impressive game to date.  They decided "let's make sure all the effects are maxed out but in order to achieve that we need to make it 30fps and remove all the graphics from the top and bottom of the screen."  It was a choice they made in order to have such a visually breathtaking game.  What people have issue with is instead of them saying that they did it for those reasons they say it was to make it more "artistic."

 

They could've run the game at 1080 without AA as you mentioned but then the game would not only be a dull player but also an average looker.  With the decision to cut the pixels rendered on screen they have that one boasting point.  Basically they have a great tech demo (that they're asking $60 for).

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BajiRav
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It's a bit of an occams razor insight here for me.

 

If the game struggled to do 1920x1080/30 stable, then you scale it back to reach 30FPS. When you have to scale something back you take it to the highest possible solution to hit your stable framerate. Why would you do anything else? You want the best possible graphical fidelity at a stable framerate. If they done that, as any dev would, that would leave no room to introduce something as resource intensive as 4xmsaa. In the quotes I highlighted they even said themselves, 1920x800 with 4xmsaa is harder to do than 1920x1080 with no AA. That isn't an outlandish claim, any PC gamer will know how taxing it can be to apply a high level of AA.

 

Take a look at console games, can you name any other one with 4xmsaa? That in itself is proof at how difficult it is to introduce a high level of AA. A lot of console games regardless of resolution have a very poor level of AA, jaggies aren't hard to find.

 

So to conclude if the game really did need to drop the resolution to hit 30FPS, where did the ability to introduce 4xmsaa come from? Running at 1920x1080 you're not going to get 4xmsaa, too much for these consoles, but 1920x800 isn't so far away from 1920x1080 (it's more taxing than 900p as proven already) that it would seem soo outlandish that The Order could run at 1920x1080 with no AA, or a very basic method of AA.

 

Couple that with a history of 1080/30 on the PS4 for an abundance of games (open world/FPS/TPS, all genres really), and it really seems to be grasping to make the connection many of you are trying to in suggesting they couldn't do a version of The Order at 1920x1080, but without 4xmsaa.

 

Like it or not graphical fidelity has gone up with the choice of 1920x800, it hasn't gone down in comparison to other PS4 games at 1920x1080 like other games becoming blurrier (usually happens when a game has to upscale or stretch textures). Hence why The Order is being called the best looking PS4 game to date.

So they couldn't get to their target IQ without dropping resolution, isn't that another way of saying PS4 couldn't hit 1080p at a stable 30fpps?

btw, IIRC Forza Horizon 2 is 1080p @30fps and uses 4xMSAA and has much larger map(s).

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+Audioboxer
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So they couldn't get to their target IQ without dropping resolution, isn't that another way of saying PS4 couldn't hit 1080p at a stable 30fpps?

btw, IIRC Forza Horizon 2 is 1080p @30fps and uses 4xMSAA and has much larger map(s).

 

Yeah... you have to be realistic, good luck with 1920x1080 with 4xmsaa on anything other than a racing game. To make my point go ahead and list all of the other XB1 games at 1920x1080, 30FPS and 4xmsaa...

 

I have no issue in saying 1920x1080 with 4xmsaa may not be possible on the PS4, none at all. Moreso confusion over those who really think The Order couldn't do 1920x1080 at 30 without 4xmsaa in the face of all the evidence (devs saying so as well as plenty of other games from mixed genres doing so).

 

This isn't a diss on Horizon but you know better BajiRav, racing games are the easiest to up the fidelity on - That trend has been with us for generations.

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Hedon
Posted
Ironman273, on 25 Feb 2015 - 07:56, said:

I don't know if you realize this but that's exactly what everyone is saying!  It is the most graphically impressive game to date.  They decided "let's make sure all the effects are maxed out but in order to achieve that we need to make it 30fps and remove all the graphics from the top and bottom of the screen."  It was a choice they made in order to have such a visually breathtaking game.  What people have issue with is instead of them saying that they did it for those reasons they say it was to make it more "artistic."

 

They could've run the game at 1080 without AA as you mentioned but then the game would not only be a dull player but also an average looker.  With the decision to cut the pixels rendered on screen they have that one boasting point.  Basically they have a great tech demo (that they're asking $60 for).

Yup, you nailed it. I have also stated it is the best looking game on console to date when you take into consideration the trade offs made with maps size, ai numbers, black bars, physics, linear nature. It's hard not to. And I enjoyed playing the game, which is the important part here. Not my favorite game, that is for sure, but it was enjoyable and I don't regret spending full price for it.

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BajiRav
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Yeah... you have to be realistic, good luck with 1920x1080 with 4xmsaa on anything other than a racing game. To make my point go ahead and list all of the other XB1 games at 1920x1080, 30FPS and 4xmsaa...

 

I have no issue in saying 1920x1080 with 4xmsaa may not be possible on the PS4, none at all. Moreso confusion over those who really think The Order couldn't do 1920x1080 at 30 without 4xmsaa in the face of all the evidence (devs saying so as well as plenty of other games from mixed genres doing so).

 

This isn't a diss on Horizon but you know better BajiRav, racing games are the easiest to up the fidelity on - That trend has been with us for generations.

Well you asked

Take a look at console games, can you name any other one with 4xmsaa?

and I answered. As simple as that.

I am not sure what you are trying to get that. RAD couldn't achieve target IQ at 1080p and hence dropped resolution. The "artistic" choice is just bullcrap on top. If that ratio was really better than a full 1080p frame, we wouldn't be having our TVs in that ratio. Heck IMAX is a waste of money by that logic.

I can't imagine 75% frame height being better for gameplay than a full 100% frame.

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gohpep
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They couldn't do 4xMSAA and those graphics at 1080p, 60FPS, so they scaled back it to 900p, 30FPS. It was either that, or keep the game at 1080p 60FPS and make it look worse.

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+Audioboxer
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Well you asked

and I answered. As simple as that.

I am not sure what you are trying to get that. RAD couldn't achieve target IQ at 1080p and hence dropped resolution. The "artistic" choice is just bullcrap on top. If that ratio was really better than a full 1080p frame, we wouldn't be having our TVs in that ratio. Heck IMAX is a waste of money by that logic.

I can't imagine 75% frame height being better for gameplay than a full 100% frame.

 

Like for like examples, or why don't people just start saying but this indie game can do it! That is sarcasm to an extent, but driving games are bottom of the ladder when comparing to TPS/FPS or open world.

 

They couldn't do 4xMSAA and those graphics at 1080p, 60FPS, so they scaled back it to 900p, 30FPS. It was either that, or keep the game at 1080p 60FPS and make it look worse.

 

It's not 900p... Have you even read the last 5 pages? Not once has the dev even mentioned 60FPS. All they've said is 1920x1080 without AA or 1920x800 with 4xmsaa, and it's always been 30FPS.

 

I swear sometimes reading the Neowin forums could drive a sane person insane.

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Hedon
Posted
Audioboxer, on 25 Feb 2015 - 10:37, said:

 

I swear sometimes reading the Neowin forums could drive a sane person insane.

Now you know how I feel!

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gohpep
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It's not 900p... Have you even read the last 5 pages? Not once has the dev even mentioned 60FPS. All they've said is 1920x1080 without AA or 1920x800 with 4xmsaa, and it's always been 30FPS.

 

I swear sometimes reading the Neowin forums could drive a sane person insane.

1920x800 is closer to a 900p resolution than what other people have been saying, 800p.

If the PS4 was more powerful, of course they would be targeting 1080p, 60FPS with 4xmsaa.

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+Audioboxer
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1920x800 is closer to a 900p resolution than what other people have been saying, 800p.

If the PS4 was more powerful, of course they would be targeting 1080p, 60FPS with 4xmsaa.

 

But it's not, we get what we pay for!

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1337ish
Posted

The youtube videos that appeared after your video made me LOL..
 

bpNMQw5.png

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soniqstylz
Posted

But it's not, we get what we pay for!

 

There's a $60 for 5-hour game joke there, but I can't seem to find it.

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trag3dy
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There's a $60 for 5-hour game on the hardest difficult with no replayability joke there, but I can't seem to find it.

 

FTFY

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soniqstylz
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The ICE team lends a hand in most SCEA games.

 

And they're not Naughty Dog (technically), they're just housed within their studio.

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+Asmodai
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The ICE team lends a hand in most SCEA games.

 

And they're not Naughty Dog (technically), they're just housed within their studio.

Ready at Dawn is the main developer of the game though and they aren't owned by Sony.  They're a privately held independent studio so some may not be aware that Sony helped out with the game beyond simply acting as the publisher.  It's not exactly a secret of you spend the time to look though as SCE Santa Monica Studio is also listed as a developer and Ready at Dawn is made up of ex-Naughty Dog (and Blizzard) members but most people aren't interested enough to do the digging required to take note of that.

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soniqstylz
Posted

Ready at Dawn is the main developer of the game though and they aren't owned by Sony.  They're a privately held independent studio so some may not be aware that Sony helped out with the game beyond simply acting as the publisher.  It's not exactly a secret of you spend the time to look though as SCE Santa Monica Studio is also listed as a developer and Ready at Dawn is made up of ex-Naughty Dog (and Blizzard) members but most people aren't interested enough to do the digging required to take note of that.

 

I was referring to AB's post.  ICE team isn't officially a part of Naughty Dog, but they are based in ND's studio.  And ICE team generally develops tools that get used by SCEA-produced AAA titles.

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