Truely Clueless "Tech Journalist"


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?As part of the OS, IE will continue to evolve, but there will be no future standalone installations. IE6 SP1 is the final standalone installation,? - Brian Countryman, IE project manager

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/treeview/...s/ie/ie0507.asp

So in order to upgrade to IE7, you'll need to upgrade to Longhorn. Development hasn't stoppstandalone development has.

ROFLMAO! you just don't get it!!

Replace 'people' with 'home users' and you're correct. CORPORATIONS are the opposite, and they are where MS make the money. Homeusers are just a little side business for MS, they sure as hell arn't where the big money is.

If you honestly think that a corporation wouldn't change if something better came along, you are clearly daft. Corporations, because of their size, tend toslower to change, but change happens. If that wasn't true, they'd still be using Netscape.

Edited by Phildeeze
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broken down

It's integrated
Yes it is. However, this may change in the future. As I remember, there are already quite a few law suits on the table to settle this right now. WordPad is an integrated Word Processor, yet most corporations and small business will still spend the money on Microsoft Office. Corporations want things done right, as do most people. Just because a piece of software comes with another piece of software, does not mean it is a smart choice to use it. On a home user basis, the fact that the icon is already on the desktop will certainly make a difference, but to a Corporation, I don't see it being much of an issue.
it's already in use

Fair, this does give it a slight advantage. However, as with all technology, you cannot count on this. There was a time when 486's were all is use. As evn already pointed out, let us remember the days when Netscape ruled the land of mighty browsers. Look at it now. IE may be seeking the same fate.

users are familiar with it
I am convinced that even this "average computer user" you speak about could be familiar with a new browser in less than a day. Most icon buttons are similar across browsers such as back, forward, stop, home, etc... Preference panes are also fairly simple. It's just a browser.
no extra cost but supported

While some browsers on Windows cost extra money, such as Opera's Opera Browser 7, there are some great free alternatives out there. Mozilla Firebird is a great Gecko based browser that I currently would vote as #1. Support for firebird may be slightly limited compared to Microsoft's because of the sheer size of the company, but many people don't like hold music.

As long as it can run relatively securly
Relatively Securely is not a title I would grant to Internet Explorer. Most updates since the original release of IE6 have simply been fixing security flaws. Let us also not forget the millions of dollars that have been spent in fixing the damage left over from MSblaster and the countless other viri that have take advantage of the browser. Many companies, the smart ones anyway, would glady pay liscensing fees for a new browser rather than pay out to fix broken computers, not taking into account the time lost that cannot even be replaced.
coporations will not care about the points you've listed. They really won't

They really will. I don't know what specific corporations you are referring to, but most healthy organizations that I can think of care about their money and the possibility of loosing it. They also already spend money on training users to use software. Whether to learn IE or any other browser would be the same investment.

Your post seems to come with the assumption that the "now" will always be the "future." Granted, Internet Explorer might have quite a large market share right now, but history has proved that in the world of technology, this is not a security that can be relied upon.

Internet Explorer may not be technically 'dead' right now, but that destiny seems to be in it's future. As more people migrate to other browsers, standards compatibility will become even more important. To the point that people will stop coding work arounds just the that specific browser, as many people have already done for Netscape 4. The power seems to be shifting back to the consumer and developer side of the line from the corporation. This doesn't even touch the other frustrating issues as a web developer that IE presents such as the famous lack of alpha channel transparency on .PNG files.

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I don't know how that rumour that IE won't be updated got started. But IE has an update coming out with XP Service Pack 2.

an update that will probably: add a poorly integrated pop-up blocker and take out that eolas crap. *and fix more bugs*

ms needs to update ie to the point of tabs, better search bar, a good pop-up blocker (i have never gotten a single pop-up in all my time using safari, compared to using google's own toolbar and having maybe 5 slip by in the past 4 months of using it. don't compare the google toolbar to your ridiculous app that just blocks all but one msie window. i'd like to open new windows without having to hold down a button to tell the pop-up blocker to ignore it)

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Internet Explorer may not be technically 'dead' right now, but that destiny seems to be in it's future. As more people migrate to other browsers, standards compatibility will become even more important. To the point that people will stop coding work arounds just the that specific browser, as many people have already done for Netscape 4. The power seems to be shifting back to the consumer and developer side of the line from the corporation. This doesn't even touch the other frustrating issues as a web developer that IE presents such as the famous lack of alpha channel transparency on .PNG files.

i can't wait until major websites stop using workarounds to view correctly in ie. i don't know which sites actually have workarounds, but imagine the day when a user opens up their browser to find yahoo, neowin, and fark have all gone to standards based coding, and they no longer display correctly with ie.

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Yes if web browsers somehow change in an extreme way that offers new business oppertunities then of course it would be sensible to re-evaluate, but we are talking about a web browser here.

A web browser is not an exciting piece of software, it isn't something that gets management talking. It has a job to do, IE does it to a level that is more than acceptable in most business environments. Getting a corporation to deploy an exciting new product / system that has potential for money making (savings/revenue) is a hell of a lot easier than making a change that *is* going to cause significant hastle with little noticable benifit.

If you honestly think that a corporation wouldn't change if something better came along, you are clearly daft.

Of course, IF IT WILL MAKE / SAVE MONEY!!!! We are still talking about web browser, not a bloody complex document management system or a san!

In general two things seem to be very hard to get funding for.. security (changing in the past few years tho) and routine software updates with no real benifits. If its not broken... etc.

(And by the way, you seem to think I'm unaware of the benifits.. I use opera, and have for ages. I get annoyed when I try to use mouse gestures at work and look stupid. But a PC at home and a corporate network are so hugely different... you really need to think differently, you know, out of the box, like a mac user.. ;) )

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Yes if web browsers somehow change in an extreme way
The other option is that web standards change and they're adopted because they are significantly better than previous technology. We've got html, xhtml, dom, css1/2, etc. all changing and expanding every year. If eventually BrowserX doesn't display the web correctly then BrowserX will be replaced, either with a new version or a different product. That is the reason we have IE6, Netscape 7, and half a dozen other new rendering engines too.
It has a job to do, IE does it to a level that is more than acceptable in most business environments.

For now. A four year old browser isn't likely to be very interesting (like using IE/Netscape 4 today). And we already know that home users have a fair bit of pull in deciding what products will be successful.

I'd ask for some evidence to support your claim that only business users matter to Microsoft & the internet at large, but I you're using the zoo-monkey debating technique: throw your own crap at the walls and hoping something sticks. No rhyme or reason - you just want to make a little noise and a big stink.

And by the way, you seem to think I'm unaware of the benifits..

No, I think that you've picked a view-point arbitrarily ("Nothing will change because businesses never change anything"). I think that you are wrong, and I think that you have presented no evidence to support your claims, and that you have ignored evidence that shows you're incorrect. I think you've fabricated some sort of bizzaro world in your head that doesn't reflect reality.

I think that you're trolling - and I'm done wasting my time on you; go find someone else to read your mindless ranting.

EDIT: Crumby english because I've started drinking.

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LOL.. someone's opinion is different to yours so you call it trolling. Nice work there fella.

If you want me to go and find some numbers to back it up I will, but I shouldn't have to, it's nothing more than common sense.

Do you honestly believe that single user licenses for XP Home and Pro make up the bulk of MS's sales? Think about the total cost of licensing per workplace user, I mean expand and consider the other MS products that tend to make up a network, exchange, server, advanced server, ISA, sharepoint, sql, office etc.

Yes, if the standards used change enough to make Internet Explorer redundant, and if those standards offer something that businesses and corporations need, they will change. The guy holding the purse strings doesn't tend to throw away money and upgrade for the sake of it which seems to be the basis for your arguement, and I'd imagine most businesses probably wouldn't upgrade their browsers just to allow staff to enjoy their lunch hour more.

But then if those standards change, then MS will almost certainly offer a product to compete, and knowing most people they will stick with MS for the original points (users comfort, integration etc).

I think you've fabricated some sort of bizzaro world in your head that doesn't reflect reality

A world where money isn't spent without a dam good reason? Wow that is bizar.

I didn't claim for a moment businesses don't change anything, ffs I was involved in a pre-release (shortly after RTM but before sales) deployment of XP. I know dam well businesses do change, often drastically, but only when there is a clear benifit. I spend a lot of time dealing with software upgrade deployments, but they are always for a reason. Bug fixes, extra features for which a clear business case has been made.

That's what it comes down to, a clear business case for the change. If there isn't one, it wont happen, simple.

Like you say, if a new standard is adopted that in a few years becomes essential to a business function, then they will change.

Personally, I can't see MS allowing the latter to result in a mass exodus.

BTW: If you think I'm trolling, the correct procedure is to click the 'Report' button, not publicly whine about it.

Edit:Spelling. It's late.

Edited by Jon
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an update that will probably:  add a poorly integrated pop-up blocker and take out that eolas crap.  *and fix more bugs*

On this point, being that I'm a beta tester for SP2, I can tell you that the popup blocker is actually very good, and has some nice features. It's also configurable on a per-site basis. So far, the "eolas crap" seems to still be in there, but at the moment, I can't say much for other bugs, I've only been using it for the better part of the day.

Edited by roadwarrior
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What the hell are you talking about? How can a hub (a layer one device) possibly be restricted to only one type of OS? Are you insane? Or are you possibly confusing hubs and routers? Even most routers (including Linksys) use a web browser for administration, so the only thing I can think of that would possibly be "Windows only" is a firmware update utility.

Read the supported OS on the hubs if you don't believe me. If your Linksys hub/router/switch or whatever, doesn't work, and your using OS X, they WILL NOT support it. Thus, windows only

hmm... i've found several places where people can help you fix your mac... apple stores, apple kb's, forums about macs... the only 2 very windows-ish places i have seen where somebody can actually help you are neowin and msfn. the ms knowledgebase has never helped me, and dell and hp and the rest don't help either. unless its 100% hardware problem, they just teach you how to reformat. my aunt has a dell, they've 'taught' her how to reformat everytime. i've never even had to call apple's tech support #. so who's butt is your head stuck up?

Sorry bud, but we are talkinga bout B&M places here. Actual physical buildings. Support forums are NOT considered at all. Go into an Apple store to get something fixed...what do they do....send it away. Good luck finding someone who will fix a Mac on the spot. That is what he is talking about.
If you will read some of his other articles at NewsFactor, he claims to either own or use a Mac, so he should have know better. I'm personally fed up with "tech journalists" that simply report their opinions instead of doing even a little bit of research. In one of his other articles, he claims that Macs don't come with keyboards. He also tries to compare prices between Macs and Dells, when the Dells don't have anywhere NEAR the specs of the Macs he is comparing them to. I certainly have read worse articles, but this one is so full of half truths and outright lies that I had to point it out. This "journalist" is still, in my opinion, either completely clueless or deliberately posting flame-bait to get more Mac readers on NewsFactor.
\\

No, what we have here is Mac users who can't stand people saying anything negative about Apple, whether it be true or not. As far as no keyboard, and the specs on Dells/Macs he compares...trying posting a link. There are NO lies and half truths in the article.

THIS is why people don't use Macs, and why the Mac section here at Neowin is dropping in credibility. We used to have people here who knew about Macs and weren't afraid to admit the shortcomings of owning one. Now we have all these people running around who know next to nothing, and flame anyone who doesn't agree with them.

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ROFLMAO! you just don't get it!!

Replace 'people' with 'home users' and you're correct. CORPORATIONS are the opposite, and they are where MS make the money. Homeusers are just a little side business for MS, they sure as hell arn't where the big money is.

I know a lot of people that work in a corporate environment that are switching to other browsers, not necessarily Mozilla, but because of the amount of downtime that they have due to security holes in IE, they would rather use something more secure.

I don't see whats so wrong with the article actually, some of the statements are just common sense

Attaining full compatibility at the office can be pricey. "Apple's got some basic software included on most Macs for word processing and e-mail, but if you really need compatibility with Microsoft (Nasdaq: MSFT -news) Office, you'll need to spend the money for Microsoft Office,"

Textedit in Panther in some mac forums is being touted as a replacement for Word just because you can save/open .doc files, as is Nisus Writer, but if you actually make a document in Word with tables and pictures and then open them in either one of those programmes it will look crap because they don't have full Word compatibility.

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I agree this this article is full of holes, as most people have commented.

The author forgot that when Microsoft comes out with a new OS, there is typically a need for upgrading certain hardware (this has been true for xp especially). OS X's releases on the other hand only get faster and faster on the same hardware i.e. no upgrading costs other than $129 which personally is a cheap upgrade as compared to new hardware.

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I know a lot of people that work in a corporate environment that are switching to other browsers, not necessarily Mozilla, but because of the amount of downtime that they have due to security holes in IE, they would rather use something more secure.

Yup, I've seen quite a few change as well, but thats specifically for security reasons, and not the strange ideas that this other guy has. There was a very interesting discussion about the feasibility of switching browsers purely due to bugs on NTBugtraq, Russ got a little bit stroppy and slated the idea, but I think he was being a little bit narrow minded. If IE dies, I'm almost certain it'll be because of the publicity its bugs are getting lately. Having said that, OE was slated for being buggy (and it was), but it's still going strong.

Edited by Jon
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Read the supported OS on the hubs if you don't believe me. If your Linksys hub/router/switch or whatever, doesn't work, and your using OS X, they WILL NOT support it. Thus, windows only

\\

No, what we have here is Mac users who can't stand people saying anything negative about Apple, whether it be true or not. As far as no keyboard, and the specs on Dells/Macs he compares...trying posting a link. There are NO lies and half truths in the article.

OK, here ya go: Mac vs. PC : The Truth About TCO by the same author (link for this was right there on the same page as the other article I referenced). He states that the Dell Dimension 8300 is a comparable PC to the G5. We can assume he's talking about the lowest model, since he quotes it at $1799, and the Dell at $1050, with monitor and keyboard, which he says are not included with the Mac. You can read the specs of the Dell HERE. The specs on the G5 are available HERE. If you read through those, you'll notice that they are hardly an equal comparison on the base model. You'd have to add a lot of extras to the Dell to give it all the features of the G5 (Firewire 800, Serial ATA, Gigabit Ethernet, to name a few).

As for your comment on the Linksys hub's supported OS, read Here (lower left under Features:), or HERE (towards the bottom middle column). Now, please find me ONE example of a Linksys hub (or ANY brand hub) that says it only supports Windows. If you can't, will you please stop making statements that can't be supported by facts?

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OK, here ya go: Mac vs. PC : The Truth About TCO by the same author (link for this was right there on the same page as the other article I referenced). He states that the Dell Dimension 8300 is a comparable PC to the G5. We can assume he's talking about the lowest model, since he quotes it at $1799, and the Dell at $1050, with monitor and keyboard, which he says are not included with the Mac. You can read the specs of the Dell HERE. The specs on the G5 are available HERE. If you read through those, you'll notice that they are hardly an equal comparison on the base model. You'd have to add a lot of extras to the Dell to give it all the features of the G5 (Firewire 800, Serial ATA, Gigabit Ethernet, to name a few).

As for your comment on the Linksys hub's supported OS, read Here (lower left under Features:), or HERE (towards the bottom middle column). Now, please find me ONE example of a Linksys hub (or ANY brand hub) that says it only supports Windows. If you can't, will you please stop making statements that can't be supported by facts?

*sigh* Ok. The article you quoted, which yet again was a well written article, is comparing the lowest end Dell vs the lowest end G5. They aren't discussing features, software, or the color of the cpu. The two machines presented are VERY close in overall performance. If you take Apple's benchmarks, knock down the score a bit for the 1.6 to allow for fudging the marks, you get very similar results. It's a price performance article. Not a "how many things can we stick in here to even things up" article. Stop moaning. And I think we can assume he was referring to the moniter when he said it wasn't included.

I fail to see your "facts" you refer to. The website makes no mention of supporting OS X, which is because Linksys does not support OS X. Don't tell me that you think "virtually all" includes OS X? LOL!! What you need to realize is companies try to make their product sound better than it really is. A perfect example is the G5 and the benchmarks they have posted. They aren't real....they are messed with to make the G5 faster than what it is. Gotta make it look good against the competition. Any more points in the original article you'd like to twist?

I agree this this article is full of holes, as most people have commented.

What holes? I knew it...I'm surrounded by lemmings.

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Well I do agree with Superflua and Wickedkitten for most of the things they said, especially the fact that most of the things in the article is "common sense"... but anyway, there's undoubtely some parts of the article made to deliberatly flame macs.

One of all is the "Office compatibility example", is true that you must buy Office for mac if you want to open a Word document you've made at work, but it's also true that you have to buy it for PC too, if you want to open it at home. In the way he stated seems that every Pc comes with Office Pre-Installed, that is true if you look at the warez-side of it! ;)

And again on the issue regarding Hub and Switches.. :blink:! How come an Hub not be compatibtle with some Operating System? Or a Switch? You plug the network cable, and it look for the packets passing through it!

Oh, you're maybe referiing to the fancy-auto-installer-guy-configurator cd's that comes with that.... well, you're right, they're made most of the time windows-only, but you can make a telnet on the device from every OS (windows, unix, linux, mac os... ). So, please, what do you mean saying that an hub is not compatible with an operating system? (this is not a flame, maybe they have some function i don't know that are bound to operating system....).

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Comparing Macs and Windows PC's is stupid.

They're different, it's more a taste thing. I've used both, I like a PC better. Sure, i'm sure there are a load of reasons why I should be using a Mac but hey, I don't want to. I'm happy with my Windows PC thanks.

As for computers in business/accademic environments? Well, surely some sort of linux system would be a lot better :)

That article didn't strike me as the most thoughtful peace of journalism/

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Oh, you're maybe referiing to the fancy-auto-installer-guy-configurator cd's that comes with that.... well, you're right, they're made most of the time windows-only, but you can make a telnet on the device from every OS (windows, unix, linux, mac os... ). So, please, what do you mean saying that an hub is not compatible with an operating system? (this is not a flame, maybe they have some function i don't know that are bound to operating system....).

I never said the actual hub wouldn't work with non-windows. Of course a hub will work! It's like saying an ethernet cable won't work with OS X. What I understood the author to be saying, is some hubs are considered windows only by the manufacturer. Linksys was the obvious example. Sure their hubs work with windows, but to the company, it is essentially windows only. Linksys doesn't provide support for OS X. You call in with a problem, chances are high they will bluntly tell you they can't help. Every once in a while, you'll get a support person who will help. But the company's official position doesn't support OS X. Thus....windows only. What good is the hardware without the companies support.

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I have a linksys wrt54g. I've called tech support and asked for help twice -> they didn't have a problem with me using os x.

(once was to figure out how to use the tftp daemon to upload a new firmware - they provided me a link to the source for their custom tftp client, the other was about using the auto dynmaic-dns update thing)

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I never said the actual hub wouldn't work with non-windows. Of course a hub will work! It's like saying an ethernet cable won't work with OS X. What I understood the author to be saying, is some hubs are considered windows only by the manufacturer. Linksys was the obvious example. Sure their hubs work with windows, but to the company, it is essentially windows only. Linksys doesn't provide support for OS X. You call in with a problem, chances are high they will bluntly tell you they can't help. Every once in a while, you'll get a support person who will help. But the company's official position doesn't support OS X. Thus....windows only. What good is the hardware without the companies support.

I see your point, but in my opinion is still misleading saying that an Hub is windows only! He should refer as the support given, and by the way, you can always find some other way to find support.

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I have a linksys wrt54g. I've called tech support and asked for help twice -> they didn't have a problem with me using os x.

(once was to figure out how to use the tftp daemon to upload a new firmware - they provided me a link to the source for their custom tftp client, the other was about using the auto dynmaic-dns update thing)

Like I said, some techs will help you. I've even heard of a couple support guys getting in some trouble because they supported OS X.

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OMG! Just read it and I can't belive what sensationist language he uses. The author makes many statements without a conclusive point, and puts forward half-arguements as facts.

I am a Windows user through and through, but I can't believe how anti-mac that article seems!

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A hub can't be Windows-only. Period. There is no intelligence in a hub! There is NOTHING to set up in order for a hub to work. All a hub is is a multi-port repeater. There is also no setup involved with a switch, although a switch is more than just a repeater. I think most of you are confusing hubs and switches with routers. With a router there is usually a "quick setup" routine that runs and in most cases, that software is for Windows.

To quote the article, "For example, the local office supply store may carry network hubs that are Windows only." Nowhere is support mentioned.

I am not saying that he didn't make valid points in his article. I am saying that any legitimacy his article has is tainted by obviously biased statements such as this one.

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