NASA breakthrough -- the EM Drive actually works!


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The_Decryptor

This is sounding more and more bunk, so now they're claiming the "EM Drive" is a Alcubierre drive? Where are they getting the negative energy required to create the warp field, how is the warp field accelerating things faster than light considering that's not what it does (It lets objects in the field move faster than light according to an outside reference frame, things inside it don't move faster than light)

The last experimental results published by NASA about this showed their experimental setup was flawed, and nobody can even explain how this device is even supposed to function within the laws of physics (It violates Newtons third law for starters)

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Krome

I thought this discussion was posted on Neowin a year or two ago already.  This is not new discussion... It's a repost :)

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Skiver

I barely understand any of this but it sounds pretty awesome - if they can successfully prove that this is working as they hoped, what kind of timeframe are we looking at for this to actually be a thing properly used? Will I see it in my lifetime?

 

2731.gif

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FloatingFatMan

 

  • nasa it IT WILL NOT work you factored time into your equation you "fools" like you always do !  

stephen hawking and albert einstein and all the other fools, were and are  fools as well as every equation they theorised or wrote down are WRONG  :p

 

 

* Citation needed.

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n_K

 

  • nasa it IT WILL NOT work you factored time into your equation you "fools" like you always do !  

stephen hawking and albert einstein and all the other fools, were and are  fools as well as every equation they theorised or wrote down are WRONG  :p

 

Hi, Let me introduce you to a subject known worldwide as physics!

Physics is the best understanding that humans currently have of the world, and is modelled with equations to match real life as possible. As it's all measured experimentally, it's not the 'absolute' law of the world, and as previously mentioned is the best understanding that humans have at the current time, so this does mean that many equations we use every day now are probably wrong, how wrong? Well, that depends on many things.

The point of physics isn't to model everything to 100%, because that is impossible, would take an absolutely excessive amount of time and offers little gain, the point of physics is to discover mostly accurate models.

Now that've been educated slightly, try coming up with a new comment that's worth reading.

Thanks,

-n_K

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GotBored

EM Drive (RF resonant cavity thruster) is basically a device which generates a directional thrust with RF. It violated the conservation of momentum, a fundamental law of physics.

 

A company called Satellite Propulsion Research Ltd (SPR) that develops prototypes apparently discovered it back in 2000, Chinese researchers from Northwestern Polytechnical University (NWPU) in 2010 have said they were able to replicate the EM Drive with a stronger thrust at higher power. In 2014 NASA also replicated SPR's EM Drive with the same results as SPR at low power.

 

Its proven to work, but you would need a lot of power to move even small objects let alone crafts that could take people into space and at great speeds.

 

So did they use this resonant cavity thruster technology to somehow boost the speed of light?  

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Unobscured Vision

That's the real set of mysteries here.

 

- They got the results using very low power, much lower than expected (56 watts total). The prototype device should not have been able to do what it did at that power, even partially. They aren't sure why, yet.

- The scaling isn't linear. Again, they aren't certain why it works that way either.

- Different designs seem to have different effects on the bubble and efficiency of the drive, but not in the predicted ways. They are still working out the maths behind this.

- There are quite a few additional Quantum and Physical Effects going on that have not been observed before, in addition to things that Science already knows about, so they are trying to "piece the puzzle together without having the picture to go by".

 

It's an interesting set of challenges to have. My guess is that if the Militaries around the world had their way, this would have been delegated a "Black Project" and it would have never seen daylight. It probably scares the high holy hell out of them, knowing that it's real and it actually works (even if we don't know how, yet).

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firey

That's the real set of mysteries here.

 

- They got the results using very low power, much lower than expected (56 watts total). The prototype device should not have been able to do what it did at that power, even partially. They aren't sure why, yet.

- The scaling isn't linear. Again, they aren't certain why it works that way either.

- Different designs seem to have different effects on the bubble and efficiency of the drive, but not in the predicted ways. They are still working out the maths behind this.

- There are quite a few additional Quantum and Physical Effects going on that have not been observed before, in addition to things that Science already knows about, so they are trying to "piece the puzzle together without having the picture to go by".

 

It's an interesting set of challenges to have. My guess is that if the Militaries around the world had their way, this would have been delegated a "Black Project" and it would have never seen daylight. It probably scares the high holy hell out of them, knowing that it's real and it actually works (even if we don't know how, yet).

Someone probably put a decimal in the wrong place.

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+Ryster

The rough speed calculations work out to being able to travel about 2.15 light years/day with this technology as it currently sits. That's the initial findings from another one of the NASA Scientists following the project. A lot more study is needed to determine what they can actually do with it; such as if they can go faster, etc.

 

2.15 LY / Day....  what's that in Warp Factors? ;)

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episode

2.15 LY / Day....  what's that in Warp Factors? ;)

 

Warp 1 = just breaking the speed of light. 

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Joni_78

That's the real set of mysteries here.

 

- They got the results using very low power, much lower than expected (56 watts total). The prototype device should not have been able to do what it did at that power, even partially. They aren't sure why, yet.

- The scaling isn't linear. Again, they aren't certain why it works that way either.

- Different designs seem to have different effects on the bubble and efficiency of the drive, but not in the predicted ways. They are still working out the maths behind this.

- There are quite a few additional Quantum and Physical Effects going on that have not been observed before, in addition to things that Science already knows about, so they are trying to "piece the puzzle together without having the picture to go by".

 

It's an interesting set of challenges to have. My guess is that if the Militaries around the world had their way, this would have been delegated a "Black Project" and it would have never seen daylight. It probably scares the high holy hell out of them, knowing that it's real and it actually works (even if we don't know how, yet).

 

Any idea what kind of power would it require to send a probe like Voyager into Alpha Centauri if this works?

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Joni_78

What were they talking about parodoxes and time travel into the past on page 93?

 

If you travel to Alpha Centauri in two days, and turn around you would see earth how it was four years ago. Then you go back to earth, you would end up there four days after you left from earth. What does time travel have to with this?

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DocM

What were they talking about parodoxes and time travel into the past on page 93?

If you travel to Alpha Centauri in two days, and turn around you would see earth how it was four years ago. Then you go back to earth, you would end up there four days after you left from earth. What does time travel have to with this?

The twins paradox. See special relativity. The faster you go the slower YOUR clock runs vs an Earth reference clock. Go near lightspeed and you perceive a few years, but it's thousands of years in Earth time and your twin is long dead. Essentially, you have time traveled thousands of years into the future.

The effect is enough that it has to be corrected for in GPS because of the satellites speed.

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Joni_78

The twins paradox. See special relativity. The faster you go the slower YOUR clock runs vs an Earth reference clock. Go near lightspeed and you perceive a few years, but it's thousands of years in Earth time and your twin is long dead. Essentially, you have time traveled thousands of years into the future.

The effect is enough that it has to be corrected for in GPS because of the satellites speed.

 

Oh yeah, i've read alot about Einsteins theories but didn't remember to take that into account  :)

 

So if you travel 2.15ly / Day into Alpha Centauri (4.366

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perochan

one step closer to the final frontier!

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Unobscured Vision

Oh yeah, i've read alot about Einsteins theories but didn't remember to take that into account  :)

 

So if you travel 2.15ly / Day into Alpha Centauri (4.366

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Forjo

What were they talking about parodoxes and time travel into the past on page 93?

 

If you travel to Alpha Centauri in two days, and turn around you would see earth how it was four years ago. Then you go back to earth, you would end up there four days after you left from earth. What does time travel have to with this?

Except time dilation doesn't happen when using warp travel. The travelling matter doesn't experience relativistic speeds so time dilation doesn't happen at the same scale. Besides, if you try to do the math, your numbers reach infinity as you get to 1C. This drive, if they are correct, is currently resulting in 2.15LY/d, or about 784.75C. So the math is wrong, the observations or wrong, or that which is travelling (in the current case, light) is not actually exceeding the speed of light. Which is a bit self evident, when you think about it.

 

If this process can be scaled up and made practical, it would take four days, LOCAL TIME, to travel back and forth to Alpha Centauri. When you got back, it would be four days later, and you'd be four days older.

 

-Forjo

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Forjo

Nope, because there's been no paradox to cause a violation of "the rules".

 

An earlier question about what Warp Speed this would equate to ... I have no idea. 2.15 LY/day can't be more than Warp Factor 2 or 3, it's not very fast in Star Trek terminology.

Actually, according to Wolfram Alpha, it's closer to Warp 7.4.

 

-Forjo

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Unobscured Vision

And if/when they begin test flights, they're going to proceed very cautiously. It certainly won't be with live subjects at first -- that will come later on, when the technology is determined to be safe.

 

Likely what they will do:

 

- Equip a series of probes with a multitude of sensors and computers, including Atomic Clocks, synchronized to an identical clock on the ground as a control.

- Fly Test Missions; first to Lunar Orbit, since they can get telemetry and data nearly instantly and note any visual effects upon the Probe as it exits the Warp Bubble as well as the local environment,

- Then at various "Milestone Markers" such as the L-1 point, then study the data they receive and note any discrepancies including clock differences (which would indicate any relativistic processes at work)

- Adjust the technology from that point as needed to make it safe for live subjects.

 

They won't do anything until the above happens, and it could take 10~15 years the way NASA operates. If there's a big enough push it'll be far less time (like with the Saturn/Apollo Program), but there would need to be a really huge political component to the equation.

 

@ Forjo: Warp 7.4, eh? Not bad. :)

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+Red King

This will amount to low ping gaming between Mars and Earth in the next 500 years.

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The_Decryptor

I thought this discussion was posted on Neowin a year or two ago already.  This is not new discussion... It's a repost :)

Same device, but this time they're actually claiming it's something entirely different (An Alcubierre drive).

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FloatingFatMan

Actually, according to Wolfram Alpha, it's closer to Warp 7.4.

 

-Forjo

 

Umm, more like warp 1.2... Here's the standard scale usually referred to:

 

warp_graph.gif

 

Warp 7.4 is more like around 800c on the scale... You're reading the Wolfram site wrong... Even that agrees, warp 7.4 is 789.7c according to that.

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T3X4S

Take the information with a mountain of salt, a lot of the "research" into this area has been absolute crap.

Like the last time they claimed it worked, when in reality it was a pretty bad measuring error (The "prototype" generated the same result whether it was on or off, which instead of being taken as a sign it didn't work, was taken as a sign that the device worked even when unpowered)

Is that what they claimed was nothing more than a mathematical error for not accounting for spacetime ?

 

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The_Decryptor

It's doubtful the device does anything, the results they've "replicated" (In reality they're all over the place) they've also achieved from the control samples that didn't do anything on purpose, meaning that any results they do get are probably down to noise in the experimental setup rather than anything actually meaningful from the device itself, or not accounting for "space" (No idea how you'd manage to forget about space in an experiment)

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