Official SpaceX Hyperloop Pod Competition

[SALSN]

7 hours ago, sidroc said:

Keep sidestepping addressing anything.

I can not read your mind, I addressed what I think are the major challenges, and what I deemed to be thunderf00t's major issues. If you want me to address something specific, I will do my best, but you have to explicitly state what it is that I need to address.

[DocM]

30 minutes ago, sidroc said:

I stiffner rings eh? Care to source where hyperloop one says that will work? Care to show what evidence they have proposed or cite their explanation for how they will do this and how it will withstand the pressures with these rings you speak of? Or did you just pull it out of no where?

I'm tired of doing your research for you, and the crap attitude.  Believe Thunderf00t's if you want, I no longer give a damn. Last freebie.

 

https://hyperloop-one.com/blog/hyperloop-factory

 

Having a world-class machine shop allows us to move more of our production and manufacturing R&D in-house so we can learn at maximum speed how to drive down the cost of delivering Hyperloop One technology. Metalworks is where we’ll be producing custom equipment and components that requires high precision and care, such as the thyristors and stators used in our propulsion system. Other parts we plan to produce here include tube aligning systems, stiffener rings, and the joints between tubes and their supporting columns.

 

 

[Memphis]

26 minutes ago, SALSN said:

I can not read your mind, I addressed what I think are the major challenges, and what I deemed to be thunderf00t's major issues. If you want me to address something specific, I will do my best, but you have to explicitly state what it is that I need to address.

Thunderf00t states that expansion will vary by 300m based on temps, how do you expect to hold vacuum without implosion when it inevitably has to change length by an overall 300m and keep it from imploding at the slightest deformity? What type of expansion joint do you believe will work? Maybe I will make a list of questions when I am not typing from my phone, but provided detailed responses and back up what you say whenever possible.

10 minutes ago, DocM said:

I'm tired of doing your research for you, and the crap attitude.  Believe Thunderf00t's if you want, I no longer give a damn. Last freebie.

 

https://hyperloop-one.com/blog/hyperloop-factory

 

Having a world-class machine shop allows us to move more of our production and manufacturing R&D in-house so we can learn at maximum speed how to drive down the cost of delivering Hyperloop One technology. Metalworks is where we’ll be producing custom equipment and components that requires high precision and care, such as the thyristors and stators used in our propulsion system. Other parts we plan to produce here include tube aligning systems, , and the joints between tubes and their supporting columns.

 

 

Ah, so not only do you not know, but they plan to produce these systems, so they have no working prototype of these systems? Figures you would give a non answer.

 

If Elin musk thought Hyperloop would be as wonderful as some people do then he would of ran with it after his white paper. Outside of his student competition, I can't find evidence that he has started his own Hypeeloop or even invested in Hypeeloop One and that is telling. 

Edited April 10, 2017 by sidroc

[DocM]

That was written last year, and the tubes are up. Make of it what you will. Bye!

[Memphis]

3 minutes ago, DocM said:

That was written last year, and the tubes are up. Make of it what you will. Bye!

Oh so no update, just old sources? Again your touting this as a possible future to transportation and you cannot even answer simple questions or point to a good source with an answer? Or explain why this is in the realm of student competitions and small start-ups instead of major investors?

[DocM]

1 hour ago, sidroc said:

Or explain why this is in the realm of student competitions and small start-ups ,instead of major investors?

Hyperloop One

 

Venture capitalization: $141.1 million

Investors: 21

Largest: General Electric, $80 million

 

https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/hyperloop-technolgies/investors

[SALSN]

1 hour ago, sidroc said:

Thunderf00t states that expansion will vary by 300m based on temps, how do you expect to hold vacuum without implosion when it inevitably has to change length by an overall 300m and keep it from imploding at the slightest deformity? What type of expansion joint do you believe will work? Maybe I will make a list of questions when I am not typing from my phone, but provided detailed responses and back up what you say whenever possible.

As stated before, I'm not a structural engineer, but I think that the assumption that the expansion and contraction will be dealt with only at the ends of the tube is very dubious. There will probably need to be "stations" that can deal with emergencies along the way, and why not use these stations to absorb some of this expansion or contraction, why do you assume that it can only be done at the end?

I'm not trying to say I know what the solution is going to be here, I'm just saying that the problem is no where near as insurmountable as thunderf00t presents it. I see no reason why this should be an impossible engineering task, perhaps the solution is something completely different from what I propose, but I'm just trying to show that this is an issue that can very likely be handled, and very likely something that has been thought of within the hyperloop engineering team. You are acting as if this is done by amateurs with no education or experience?!

With regard to implosion after the slightest deformation I'm absolutely sure they have dimensioned it so that this will not happen, this is obviously possible, so how is this even a serious question?

I can not expand on what specific type of expansion joint they will use, since I know very little about that field, but as said before, competent people are working on this, I'm sure this dilemma is part of their work.

I'm not going to list a set of sources here because the purpose of this comment is not to explain how it works (since I obviously don't know that in detail), but to show that the assumptions made to debunk the concept are flawed to say the least.

[Memphis]

As stated before, I'm not a structural engineer, but I think that the assumption that the expansion and contraction will be dealt with only at the ends of the tube is very dubious. There will probably need to be "stations" that can deal with emergencies along the way, and why not use these stations to absorb some of this expansion or contraction, why do you assume that it can only be done at the end?

 

I'm not trying to say I know what the solution is going to be here, I'm just saying that the problem is no where near as insurmountable as thunderf00t presents it. I see no reason why this should be an impossible engineering task, perhaps the solution is something completely different from what I propose, but I'm just trying to show that this is an issue that can very likely be handled, and very likely something that has been thought of within the hyperloop engineering team. You are acting as if this is done by amateurs with no education or experience?!

 

With regard to implosion after the slightest deformation I'm absolutely sure they have dimensioned it so that this will not happen, this is obviously possible, so how is this even a serious question?

 

I can not expand on what specific type of expansion joint they will use, since I know very little about that field, but as said before, competent people are working on this, I'm sure this dilemma is part of their work.

 

I'm not going to list a set of sources here because the purpose of this comment is not to explain how it works (since I obviously don't know that in detail), but to show that the assumptions made to debunk the concept are flawed to say the least.

 

 

Thanks foe your honest opinion on it. I see you don't seem to be sure how these would be solved. I just refuce to accept that they just have a solution. Look I get it the idea sounds cool, but I can't just believe they have solved the problems because the idea sounds cool. As for expansion your right on one thing its not just handled at the ends in real like. Look up how its done on oil pipelines. (U joints or stretchy expansion joints) the trouble is that these would be inherently much weaker under a vacuum and any deviation from the malleable joint side to side destroys the tube and the pod as these are traveling at close to bullet speeds and weigh 15 tons. Remember speed doubled quadruples force.

 

[SALSN]

Just want to clarify that I'm not defending it because I think it is a cool idea (though I do), but because the criticisms brought up especially by thunderf00t have been very weak. I'm open to the possibility that there is an Achilles heel that could doom the project, but when criticisms brought up focus on the length of the test pipe or the state of the very first prototypes, it goes to show that the critics are not that serious.

Now perhaps the vacuum joints you bring up are that Achilles heel, but we are talking about a technology here that has not been adapted at all to this new purpose yet, I'm still open to the possibility that optimizations for this new purpose can be made. And I think discounting it before any adaptations have even been proposed yet is jumping the shark.

I see my position as being realistically optimistic rather than not wanting to face obvious deficiencies, because I genuinely only see challenges that could be overcome so far.

[+John. Subscriber¹]

I can see Musk pairing Hyperloop technology with The Boring Company and producing small tunnels, rather than them having it entirely above ground where it could be subject to greater wear and tear 

[Memphis]

Just want to clarify that I'm not defending it because I think it is a cool idea (though I do), but because the criticisms brought up especially by thunderf00t have been very weak. I'm open to the possibility that there is an Achilles heel that could doom the project, but when criticisms brought up focus on the length of the test pipe or the state of the very first prototypes, it goes to show that the critics are not that serious.

Now perhaps the vacuum joints you bring up are that Achilles heel, but we are talking about a technology here that has not been adapted at all to this new purpose yet, I'm still open to the possibility that optimizations for this new purpose can be made. And I think discounting it before any adaptations have even been proposed yet is jumping the shark.

I see my position as being realistically optimistic rather than not wanting to face obvious deficiencies, because I genuinely only see challenges that could be overcome so far.

I actually hope thundeef00ts wrong, innovation that is stopped by reality is kind of depressing. But it won't be long before Hyperloop one will have to put up or shut up so maybe soon we will see.

[SALSN]

Just now, John. said:

I can see Musk pairing Hyperloop technology with The Boring Company and producing small tunnels, rather than them having it above ground where it could be subject to greater wear and tear 

Well as far as I've heard they want to cover it in solar panels, that kind of loses it's point if it is underground :-P
Also much much more expensive and more cumbersome with regard to evacuation.
One of the points brought up in favour of the hyperloop was it's price, so I would not bet money on them burring it.

[+John. Subscriber¹]

Just now, SALSN said:

Well as far as I've heard they want to cover it in solar panels, that kind of loses it's point if it is underground :-P
Also much much more expensive and more cumbersome with regard to evacuation.
One of the points brought up in favour of the hyperloop was it's price, so I would not bet money on them burring it.

I should've clarified I meant through populated areas, where traffic is currently an issue. Nothing to say they can't have a mixture of both and go overground when it reaches a less dense area. Pretty much the same as current train systems in big cities

[SALSN]

Just now, John. said:

I should've clarified I meant through populated areas, where traffic is currently an issue. Nothing to say they can't have a mixture of both and go overground when it reaches a less dense area. Pretty much the same as current train systems in big cities

Well that sounds very reasonable.

[Memphis]

Your planning the best route before you even know if it will be feasible to build one anywhere. It reminds me of how hyperloop one was promoting the comfort if the inside of the pod design and the shopping around the terminals without proving they could even build a basic working hyperloop. Thubderf00t gave a great example of this kind of thinking. The best place to put solar panels is in close orbit to the sun, nevermind the details of how they wouldn't melt, and how you would get the generated power to earth, the light rays could generate ridiculous amounts of power at that distance so its a go don't question it.

[FloatingFatMan]

Below is what happens to a reinforced steel tube under a partial vacuum after someone puts a dent in it...

 

 

Now imagine that in the hyperloop, and something happens to hit the tube (say a car or something).

 

All it takes is a small deformation...

[flyingskippy]

You guys are asking for details only an engineer at hyperloop could give you. None of us here are an engineer at hyperloop. Also kind of apples to oranges comparing it to a structure never designed to hold a vacuum. I mean I could put wings on my car, but I wouldn't call it an airplane. 

 

[Memphis]

On 4/10/2017 at 0:43 PM, FloatingFatMan said:

Below is what happens to a reinforced steel tube under a partial vacuum after someone puts a dent in it...

 

 

Now imagine that in the hyperloop, and something happens to hit the tube (say a car or something).

 

All it takes is a small deformation...

That happened at only a 21% vacuum, the Hyper-loop will run at a 99.9% vacuum. Basically, this is bound to happen to the hyperloop as the steel will have to hold this pressure 24/7 365 without failure.

[+John. Subscriber¹]

3 minutes ago, sidroc said:

That happened at only a 21% vacuum, the Hyper-loop will run at a 99.9% vacuum. Basically, this is bound to happen to the hyperloop as the steel will have to hold this pressure 24/7 365 without failure.

Are you *still* on this? Like @flyingskippy said, that's like treading on a Coke can then complaining of its integrity. It's not designed for it.

[DocM]

3 hours ago, John. said:

Are you *still* on this? Like @flyingskippy said, that's like treading on a Coke can then complaining of its integrity. It's not designed for it.

No stiffeners (though some truck tanks have them, see bottom), wrong alloy, no support at center of segment, and I doubt 1.5 ton rocks will be falling from the skies very often.

 

This is what a proper vacuum truck tank looks like. Hyperloop should look similar.

 

[Memphis]

Are you *still* on this? Like [mention=508783]flyingskippy[/mention] said, that's like treading on a Coke can then complaining of its integrity. It's not designed for it.

Thanks for answering any if the questions I posed, referring back to Hyperloop one's engineers is not sufficient unless your sourcing evidence provided by them.

[flyingskippy]

 You want specific details from everyone else,  yet your evidence uses a clip from Mythbusters with a railroad tank car?

 

That structure is designed to contain mass and force from within not out. 

Just now, flyingskippy said:

 

[Memphis]

 You want specific details from everyone else,  yet your evidence uses a clip from Mythbusters with a railroad tank car?
 
That structure is designed to contain mass and force from within not out. 

I did not post the video, it was just an interesting piece that was posted by someone else. Hiwever, I did ask several pointed questions in the last page or rwo, care to look them over?

[Memphis]

No stiffeners (though some truck tanks have them, see bottom), wrong alloy, no support at center of segment, and I doubt 1.5 ton rocks will be falling from the skies very often.  

This is what a proper vacuum truck tank looks like. Hyperloop should look similar.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here you go, similar model with stiffners imploding. Docm you will have to try harder than finding one that "looks" tougher.

 

Just for fun here is some more numbers. One mile of steel rail (130 pounds per yard) is 228,800 pounds of steel. One mile of steel tubing the size of this brenner tanker (smaller diameter than the hyperloop) is 1,584,000 or 7 times more steel per mile and that's if we used the diameter tube of the tanker not the hyperlink. That's something to ponder.

 

 

 

[DocM]

Again, chemical truck tanks are not hyperloop runs and neither are railroad tracks.  

 

Your railway  mass/mile numbers are also off - 228,800 is for only one rail and it takes 2 rails per track. Rails can also run up to 155 lbs/yard, and many rights of way have 2-3 tracks.