Hostility Towards Newbie Disributions


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why are some linux users (most of them with more experience) are so "hostile" towards distros like redhat and mandrake. im using slackware my self and attempted installing gentoo. i really would like to know. is it the installation, the commercialization? what is it?

another question. how would you rank fedora in terms of how "user friendly" it is? is it just another redhat with a different name or is it more advanced?

thank you.

red

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Many advanced users dislike distros such as RH and MDK because they make Linux so simple. Think about it, what kind of learning experience would you get when you have the OS doing most of the work for you...? With Slackware, Debian, or Gentoo, if something goes wrong, the OS won't hold your hand, and work with you to fix it, you fix it by yourself, without assistance, which makes finding a solution all the more satisfying. With MDK and RH, all you have to do is a few clicks, and you're on your merry way. Where's the fun in that? I run Slackware myself, before that I used Gentoo, and started my Linux experience with MDK, but so bored so quickly because it was just like using Windows.

For your second question, I can't say anything because I haven't/won't run Fedora... yet.

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I think its the big d*ck syndrome :p

Meh I suffer from it myself. I guess its because even though these distributions are all commercialised we feel they aren't as good as the more advanced free distros.

The problem is "newbies" start using these distributions and they feel they are "leet" because they are using Linux but they don't really know what they are doing at all. A lot of these people only use Linux for the "leet" factor not because they really want to learn it... I realise this is not always the case its just how more experienced linux users often think.

Personally I didn't learn the ins and outs of linux until I started using Debian a couple of years ago... (Probably because Redhat and Mandrakes dependencies drove me insane :p) Since these ditros configure everything for you automatically there is little opportunity for learning how it really works. The problem is Linux isn't perfect and when something stops working "newbies" who don't understand how it really works don't know how to fix it.

The thing is though, I know that if Linux is to make inroads into the desktop market it is going to become a whole lot more "newbish" than it is now. Problems are going to have to be fixable without knowing the ins and outs of Linux.

I guess It is good people are wanting to try Linux though, even if they won't learn how it really works. The people who really want to learn just naturally progress to the harder distributions because they want the challenge anyway in my experience :)

Oh yes... and from what i've seen so far Fedora is very similar to Redhat.

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Fedora is Red Hat with a different name. I'm not sure what the hostility is (although I've noticed it), except for the fact that some in the Linux community might be worried about people moving over to Red Hat because it's so much like Windows, or as easy to use as Windows, and they think Linux should be its own beast.

I've tried a few distros, I still like Red Hat (now Fedora) the best, since so many people use it, it's very easy to find answers if you have a problem.

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Personally, I hate RH and MDK (MDK less tho) because they don't include the source code on installation! Also i hate how they steal some of the functionality of linux by being TOO user freindly (reminds me of Windows).

Jamd (ok...and Elx, but it's far outdated) are the only user friendly distros I would recommend to people....I guess knoppix aswell...it's such a handy distro once you turn off it's disabled write access to the hard drive...and once you INSTALL it...

Oh ya...I also hate how if you use a standard kernel in RH it never acts how it should...they must have it set up to only work properly with RH kernels...

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Bah. People always complained that Linux was too difficult to use. We tried to address this problem and make it more user friendly. What happened? People start accusing these distro's of being too "newbie" orientated. There is no pleasing some of you.

I use a wide variety of distro's simply because I enjoy experimenting, but I keep a few of these "n00b" distro's on hand because they make for great troubleshooting and diagnostic solutions.

There is nothing wrong with a more friendly linux distribution. Not everyone is interested in learning the mechanics of Linux. For some, they simply are looking to try out something new. Others might be looking to replace their windows box with an inexpensive alternative. It may surprise you but some people just want their machine to work. They don't want to know what chmod or ./configure is and with distros like redhat they likely won't need to.

I think, that with Linux there is something for everyone.

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You can't please all the people all the time. It really depends on the group of people that you ask. Not all or even the majority think like this. Hell Linus uses Red Hat and SuSE for crying out loud!

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I hate fedora because it ****es me off a lot. Stuff doesn't work, there's dependency hell, all kinds of stability and bloat problems. I just hated it. I kinda like Suse but i've also had some stability issues with that. I really liked mandrake but its a pain once again to do many things. Esp compile programs because last time i used it, directories weren't where they shoulda been and i had to sort that mess out. Gentoo has worked out the best for me becasue its actually the easies to install and upgrade, and its always up to date. Bleeding edge. And i haven't had many issues with it.

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I'm honestly not too sure why some distro users are hostile towards other distributions. Maybe it's a matter of taking too much pride in one particular distribution? :huh:

I'm not one of those kinds of people. I know what I like, and personally I tend to prefer distros that provide an easier installation, like Fedora, Mandrake, and SuSE. While I like Linux, I use it as my primary OS and don't really have the time to be tinkering around with programs to make them work.

What I do like are programs that install without hassle (I'm a big fan of APT) and a setup that doesn't require a rocket scientist to figure out. While I will compile programs from time to time, I only tend to go that route if an RPM doesn't exist and the program is bleeding edge.

I do understand, however, that some people don't like the way that certain distributions are setup. Candyman brought up two good examples with RedHat/Fedora. While this may be true, it really isn't that difficult to setup your own kernel to run with distributions with specific kernel setups. I've also noticed that the Fedora project has done very well with keeping up with kernel distributions, as they're typically behind by generally only one kernel release.

how would you rank fedora in terms of how "user friendly" it is? is it just another redhat with a different name or is it more advanced?
I personally think that Fedora is a great distribution. I look at it being RedHat 9.1 without the name. There have been improvements over Redhat 9, my favorite being the inclusion of Gnome 2.4 which I use as my WM. Updates are still available thanks to the RedHat Updater (up2date) being reconfigured to use YUM and pointed to an update repository, in addition to a Fedora version of APT. And while you don't get the features that were included with the RedHat network, such as the nifty Web interface and the ability to push software to your machine from that interface, it's nothing that I really miss all that much.

My biggest complaint with Fedora is the lack of the MP3 encoding/decoding, since it's supposed to be a completely open source project. While you do get the ability to listen to and create OGG files, the simple fact that MP3 is the format which everone uses leaves alot to be desired. Thankfully there are MP3 pluggins available from other repositories which gives you the ability to play MP3s. I just haven't found a plugin for gstreamer that allows you to encode with Sound Juicer. :blink:

The other problem that I've encountered is one that has been plaguing RedHat distros since version 8 ... which is the RPM tool having a tendancy to crash. Luckily there's an easy fix for the issue, but the fix doesn't remove the bug itself, meaning every once in a while you'll have to delete a few files in order to get RPM to work correctly again. This is one I'm hoping that they'll get fixed soon. :whistle:

There is no pleasing some of you.

Just wanted to note that I've been using Linux for years. I'm very pleased with it's progress in the past 5 years, it's current state of being, and where it's headed. :D

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Use what suits you well.

I use Fedora. I used to run RH 5.1, then RH7.3, then RH8 and RH9. I am comfortable with them, and RH is powerful, as the kernel is still Linux. You can choose what WM to use (KDE, Gnome, IceWM) to pick the amount of bloat-to-ease-of-use ratio that suits you. Hell, you don't even *have* to put in a GUI on any Distro I am aware of (except maybe Lindows :laugh: )

RH has been easy to learn, and working a job that I require to put a lot of hours into, plus having a family with four young boys, I don't WANT to build a Linux From Scratch and compile everything. I know I can do it if I want. But I am happy just having a Linux that runs well and does what I need.

Sure there are some 1337 hackers that aren't happy unless they squeeze every bit of power out of their system. And that is great, because Linux allows them to do that. There are a few that say that you HAVE to run a system thier way (or their distro), but just ignore those comments. They are well-intentioned, but probably aren't really thinking of people in other situations.

The final opinion: If Lindows suits you, USE IT! If Mandy, or Slack, or Gentoo or even building your own from sources is your bag, GO FOR IT!

Linux truly can be all things to all people. :)

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Everybody starts at the bottom. When I first started using Linux, I used Mandrake 8.0. It made the transition between Windows and Linux very easy, but I soon started moving around to other distributions. I'm currently using Slackware 9.1, and I'm now considering moving to Debian, or a Debian-based distribution (probably Libranet 2.8.1).

I don't really like Mandrake and Redhat anymore, because it takes away all the fun in Linux. I also think that they're too bloated. Honestly, who needs three different word processors? The one thing that I liked about them, is that it gave me a chance to try out all the different programs. As a result, my Slackware installation isn't loaded with 5 or 6 different programs that do the exact same thing.

If someone is bothering you becuase you're using Mandrake or Fedora (which I've tried, and kind of liked), just ignore them. If someone tells you that they started off using Gentoo, Slackware, or Debian, they're probably lying. I like Linux because because I have a choice, and can use whatever I want. If someone doesn't like it, they can go to hell.

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As far as Linux distributions go there are very few I like - and all of them are considered "advanced" distros (Bastile, LFS, Gentoo, Slack). I find that newbie distributions get in my way when I want to make what should be minor changes: I try to find the distros prefered way rather than just editing a config file which they have conviently placed somewhere non-standard (or atleast where I don't expect to find it).

I'm all for newbies finding a distribution that caters toward their needs, what I don't like is when:

1) A newbie expects everything to be done for them - even though NO operating system ships configured exactly to anyone's liking.

2) people refuse to read FAQ, documentation, source, helpfiles, support forum, google, etc.

If the answer can be found in minutes on google I don't think it's unfair for experienced people to tell them to RTFF.

3) "Application X doesn't do Y like OS ABC does: Linux sucks!". It's frustrating when people choose to use Linux because it's different, then complain about those differences. Just because you're not familar with some feature or a way of doing things doesn't mean that feature is a flaw.

Use what you will, just don't expect me to use it on my machines. I think experienced users aren't annoyed with the distribution, it's the the people who aren't willing to learn that bother them.

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As far as Linux distributions go there are very few I like - and all of them are considered "advanced" distros (Bastile, LFS, Gentoo, Slack). I find that newbie distributions get in my way when I want to make what should be minor changes: I try to find the distros prefered way rather than just editing a config file which they have conviently placed somewhere non-standard (or atleast where I don't expect to find it).

I'm all for newbies finding a distribution that caters toward their needs, what I don't like is when:

1) A newbie expects everything to be done for them - even though NO operating system ships configured exactly to anyone's liking.

2) people refuse to read FAQ, documentation, source, helpfiles, support forum, google, etc.

If the answer can be found in minutes on google I don't think it's unfair for experienced people to tell them to RTFF.

3) "Application X doesn't do Y like OS ABC does: Linux sucks!". It's frustrating when people choose to use Linux because it's different, then complain about those differences. Just because you're not familar with some feature or a way of doing things doesn't mean that feature is a flaw.

Use what you will, just don't expect me to use it on my machines. I think experienced users aren't annoyed with the distribution, it's the the people who aren't willing to learn that bother them.

:yes: I rate that reply 5/5...excelent

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Bah. People always complained that Linux was too difficult to use. We tried to address this problem and make it more user friendly. What happened? People start accusing these distro's of being too "newbie" orientated. There is no pleasing some of you.

I use a wide variety of distro's simply because I enjoy experimenting, but I keep a few of these "n00b" distro's on hand because they make for great troubleshooting and diagnostic solutions.

There is nothing wrong with a more friendly linux distribution. Not everyone is interested in learning the mechanics of Linux. For some, they simply are looking to try out something new. Others might be looking to replace their windows box with an inexpensive alternative. It may surprise you but some people just want their machine to work. They don't want to know what chmod or ./configure is and with distros like redhat they likely won't need to.

I think, that with Linux there is something for everyone.

I completely agree.

I would use one of these newbie linux builds before I go into advanced ones. I would like to be helped at first (not step by step per say, but not alone in the dark either), then graduate towards a more user-independant build. I always thought that one reason people didn't use linux was because of its difficulty; now that some distros are less difficult to fool around with, there is complaining.

I'm pretty sure that after a few years I could be good with linux, but right now I'm a n00b, and I need all the help I can get. I can't make a linux distro work after it refuses to start up or anything, I only know the basics. So, I like it that these builds get me started onto the linux world :)

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Beginner distros are a good thing. I think everyone in this forum learned on Mandrake/Red Hat/SuSE. Though, I'm not a big fan of Mandrake, but not because its very easy to use, its because I don't like KDE

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thank you for your replies, guys. i agree with the point a lot of you made - it gets in the way. i used mandrake for about 6 months and can say honestly that even though it got me started with linux, i really hadn't learned a lot. like one member said, people refuse to read the man pages. the same thing happened to me. i went about using drakeconf to configure everything. the whole purpose i installed linux was lost - knowledge.

but, on the other hand i guess that these "newbie distros" are the ones that start off novoices into the world of linux. i'm going to try out what i please and stick with the one that i'm the most comfortable with, whether it be redhat or gentoo.

thanks once again.

red

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As far as Linux distributions go there are very few I like - and all of them are considered "advanced" distros (Bastile, LFS, Gentoo, Slack). I find that newbie distributions get in my way when I want to make what should be minor changes: I try to find the distros prefered way rather than just editing a config file which they have conviently placed somewhere non-standard (or atleast where I don't expect to find it).

I'm all for newbies finding a distribution that caters toward their needs, what I don't like is when:

1) A newbie expects everything to be done for them - even though NO operating system ships configured exactly to anyone's liking.

2) people refuse to read FAQ, documentation, source, helpfiles, support forum, google, etc.

If the answer can be found in minutes on google I don't think it's unfair for experienced people to tell them to RTFF.

3) "Application X doesn't do Y like OS ABC does: Linux sucks!". It's frustrating when people choose to use Linux because it's different, then complain about those differences. Just because you're not familar with some feature or a way of doing things doesn't mean that feature is a flaw.

Use what you will, just don't expect me to use it on my machines. I think experienced users aren't annoyed with the distribution, it's the the people who aren't willing to learn that bother them.

Too ****ing right. If you're looking to get into Linux and want to use something like Mandrake, more power to you. Don't expect me, however, to call to your every need because you overlooked Google or the site's own documentation.

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I think a lot of it has to do with elitisim too. Despite all of the talk about pushing Linux to the desktops, and making it a viable alternative to Windows, etc. etc. there's -always- going to be a group of people within the community who feel that Linux is an elitist thing - something that makes them special.

A lot of people also resent progress and things being made simpler to perform (such as system configuration,) since somebody with half the experience as them can come in and do the same configurations through an X or curses based program that they had to learn the hard way - through manual editing files and such.

These people are, sadly, probably always going to be around, too. Ah well. Personally, I like Mandrake - even though I don't run it currently - it's a well thought out and put together distro, and the people at Mandrakesoft, despite speaking stilted english, are always helpful to any technical problems I've ever had.

Heck, once (back around version 7 or so,) when I bought the Desktop edition by mistake, which wouldn't install on my system due to the install proggie not supporting many advanced options, they sent me the Professional (Deluxe? Whatever they called it,) all the way from France free of charge. (This was back when me owning a CD burner was just a pipe dream, mind you, let alone broadband!)

Heck, I even know many non-newbies who run Mandrake - they manage to breed loyalty with service like that. Same as SuSE.

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more people need to get off their lazy ass's and read some information. people just take the easy way out by asking someone else instead of looking up the answer...it's quite sad actually.

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i see nothing wrong with "noob" distros....they arent really that noob if u dont want them to be..no one says u hafta use the GUI, u can do it all by hand if u want to.

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I personally learned pleanty of useful things using Slackware, and find it an excellent desktop/server at home, however when I came to use Linux in a more professional environment than my bedroom a lot of the knowledge was useless as companies and universities (in my experience) don't tend to use any of the pure open source solutions, as there is no real support and the inner workings of the more obscure distros are often different from those of the mainstream ones, for example Slackware has many files in different places than other distros, even SuSE and Redhat have considerable differences. As a result many of the nice things I learnt from using Slackware were useless in the real world, plus companies tend to go with the Enterprise editions of distros, which don't have the bleeding edge software which is included in many of the distros people use at home, and so the cool features you're used to at home aren't available when you come to apply your knowledge to make some money. Therefore, if people are learning Linux for themselves then I'de say the Debians and Gentoos are excellent choices as you can really get to grips with the underlying OS, however a certification and knowledge of enterprise Linux is more useful when applied in a professional context, although certifications in particular require far more knowledge than simply being capable of using GUIs. I personally like using GUIs for certain tasks, it sometimes beats searching down a huge text file.

Also, 'Newbie' distros can do everything and more than the more specialised ones, for example Redhat and SuSE have far more enterprise level software support than something like Gentoo (by this I mean software than costs thousands of pounds like oracle), but this isn't an important thing for the home user. If the creator of the operating system uses Redhat/SuSE, as well as professionals in the IT industry then I'de hardly say they were only used by newbies.

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