mudslag Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 This was what I had more in mind. there was a movement somewhere around the turn of the century to weed out those deemed genetically inferior. But mudslag, that pic is awesome! That's one of my favorite movies. Eugenics according to enccyclopedia britannica (please forgive the two "CC"'s in my link. Which was my initial point, the idea that PP was created as some sort of eugenics plan does not in anyway fit with how PP works today. that's the debate. but in my case, when my wife was pregnant, we heard a heart beat in the first 3 weeks of gestation. so there is life but we are walking right into the exact debate that was roe vs wade in 1973 That would be a worlds first considering at 3 weeks it has no heart to beat. TPreston 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mockingbird Posted July 30, 2015 Author Share Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) I find it hypocritical that social conservatives only care about unborn "babies". As soon as they are born, social conservatives don't care about they any more. Let's cut food stamp. If a lot of children go hungry: no big deal since they were already born. And what above love? What about having a stable home? And no, having a 15-years old mom is not stable!!! Children are not dogs. It's not sufficient to just feed them (which conservatives don't even want to do) and take them for walks a few times a week. mudslag and TPreston 2 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocM Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) Wait inhumane? how so ? And I have never heard of them killing babies. And no a fetus in the 1st trimester is not a baby, not a humane being for that matter. The proble is that PP, and some rather ethically challenged aortion docs, have supported abortions done in the third trimeter: aka late-term abortions. Some were done very near or during labor. Up to 6% of abortions at one time. This did not sit well. Their excuse was that such a procedure is necessary in the case of a late discovered anacephaly**, an argument which has been rejected by 42 States and the Federal government because the numbers being done far outstripped the prevalance of the condition Poll wise, US adults have opposed late-term abortion by from 56-70% since the Federal late-term abortion ban was passed in 2003. There is a life/safety of the mother exception, but the State and Federal ban is still in place. Still. PP and some docs skirt the law by inducing fetal death by administering a lethal injection into the heart before aborting it. Most people, including many physicians, would call that infanticide regardless of the technical definition of fetus. To be sure, anacephalic fetuses should be aborted but the better answer is to identify them sooner when the abortion is less risky to the mother, another problem with the practice. ** https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anencephaly Edited July 31, 2015 by DocM DConnell 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost5525 Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I agree there is no need to get into this, it would be way off topic at this point :P. But Heart beat doesn't equal humane being. It would need to achieve consciousness which doesn't happen until much later. At this point the baby is as alive as a tree. So what does qualify it as a human being? That it "Looks" like one? That it has to be 100% fully developed and near term before you classify it as a human? Why do you care about what happens afterward? They can turn the fetus into hamburger patties for all I care. (not that I would actually eat them) Because i value human life, look i dunno what the hell they are teaching you guys out in CA but apparently it's not having any value of human life no matter how small. The fact that we have accepted basically killing babies in utero because the responsibility of raising and caring for that kid is a burden really shows how F-ed up our society is now. DConnell and psmoked 2 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonicgoofy Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) So what does qualify it as a human being? That it "Looks" like one? That it has to be 100% fully developed and near term before you classify it as a human? Not fully developed, but have a nervous system in place, and be able to be aware of the environment. (Granted that would put 100% of animals on the planet in that bracket). Anything before the 3rd trimester should not be considered alive. The proble is that PP, and some rather ethically challenged aortion docs, have supported abortions done in the third trimeter: aka late-term abortions. Some were done very near or during labor. Up to 6% of abortions at one time. This did not sit well. I agree that late-term abortions are more complicated and should not happen in general, but I would be okay if the health of the mother was in danger. 6% is negligible on the overall scale, and is acceptable. It's not perfect, but it could be a lot worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonicgoofy Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) Because i value human life, look i dunno what the hell they are teaching you guys out in CA but apparently it's not having any value of human life no matter how small. The fact that we have accepted basically killing babies in utero because the responsibility of raising and caring for that kid is a burden really shows how F-ed up our society is now. Haha value of human life, that's a funny one. Then were are all the supporter of universal health care and social program in the AK or any southern states at this point (I know it's a gross generalization, but not far from reality)? Because those should be BASIC human rights. A lot more (it's not even close) people die each year from lack of healthcare than from abortion (and I am going by your standard for abortion being considered killing (I wouldn't consider it killing, but for the sake of the argument I will)) TPreston 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost5525 Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Haha value of human life, that's a funny one. Then were are all the supporter of universal health care and social program in the AK or any southern states at this point (I know it's a gross generalization, but not far from reality)? Because those should be BASIC human rights. A lot more (it's not even close) people die each year from lack of healthcare than from abortion (and I am going by your standard for abortion being considered killing (I wouldn't consider it killing, but for the sake of the argument I will)) That wasn't meant for you to detour into other social programs as we are talking about valuing the life of a defenseless baby in the womb. Funny you seem to think that a baby is a human once it hits your criteria when the following things are present very early in development: The cardiovascular system is the first major system to function. At about 22 days after conception the child's heart begins to circulate his own blood, unique to that of his mother's, and his heartbeat can be detected on ultrasound. At just six weeks, the child's eyes and eye lids, nose, mouth, and tongue have formed. Electrical brain activity can be detected at six or seven weeks,and by the end of the eighth week, the child, now known scientifically as a "fetus," has developed all of his organs and bodily structures. By ten weeks after conception the child can make bodily movements. Not fully developed, but have a nervous system in place, and be able to be aware of the environment. (Granted that would put 100% of animals on the planet in that bracket). Anything before the 3rd trimester should not be considered alive. I agree that late-term abortions are more complicated and should not happen in general, but I would be okay if the health of the mother was in danger. 6% is negligible on the overall scale, and is acceptable. It's not perfect, but it could be a lot worse. The truth is Abortion is wrong and should not be something that is allowed. If you don't believe that then you are severely lacking any sense of morality. Now going back to your point about "OH but what about heathcare, food, etc. I have no problem supporting those initiatives and helping the poor/needy/hungry. But when it comes to social programs i think our law makers and we the people need to come up with a cost efficent way of taking care of our people where it doesn't blow up into some abused service or money pit that we throw money in. I think that's something any Republican and Democrat can come to agreement on. Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. DConnell 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonicgoofy Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 The truth is Abortion is wrong and should not be something that is allowed. If you don't believe that then you are severely lacking any sense of morality. Well that's where we differ and will most likely never agree. You just have to accept that a lot of people do not view it as morally wrong. This should be left open for the person to decide, and not someone that doesn't shouldn't have any say in the matter. People have been using abortion since the dawn of time and will continue to use it regardless of regulations in place. Just for that fact, we should make it safe for them to do it. It's their decision to make, not yours. I am more than okay with people not supporting it, what I hate is people tell other people what to do with their body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+primortal Subscriber² Posted July 31, 2015 Subscriber² Share Posted July 31, 2015 The truth is Abortion is wrong and should not be something that is allowed.... So if a close female member of your family is attacked and as a result is impregnated with no access to the morning after pill, you're good with that person carrying to term knowing fully well how that child was conceived? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravensky Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Why do you care about what happens afterward? They can turn the fetus into hamburger patties for all I care. (not that I would actually eat them) Really you are this ignorant? It's what is happening afterwards that is driving an illegal body parts market for research and god knows what else, also they are now encouraging youth to have sex so they can get pregnant and have abortions to feed their illegal donor operations, you really should care about what happens after... psmoked 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre S. Veteran Posted July 31, 2015 Veteran Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) It's a bit of a moot point anyway because those who fundamentally oppose abortion for any reason, under any circumstance (rape, incest, pregnancy a serious health risk to mother) would still oppose PP. Most countries don't allow late abortions, so it doesn't have to be all or nothing. Of course the logic of allowing or disallowing at x or y week is arguable, but so is the logic of allowing until birth. What is it with birth that makes it somehow able to give personhood? It's a very outdated and unscientific idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emn1ty Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) Most countries don't allow late abortions, so it doesn't have to be all or nothing. Of course the logic of allowing or disallowing at x or y week is arguable, but so is the logic of allowing until birth. What is it with birth that makes it somehow able to give personhood? It's a very outdated and unscientific idea. It is all quite arbitrary, agreed. It's very much similar to the difference between a 17 year old and an 18 year old with legal consent, or 20 and 21 with alcohol. It's just a line we've placed somewhere that doesn't really address the issue. The same is true of a fetus. When is it a person? When is it not? We don't really know, and don't have the scientific evidence to prove one way or another really. I mean. We could go off of the development of the brain, but that's still forgetting the fact that what defines a sentient being and doesn't isn't scientifically measurable (not to a definitive conclusion). To me, this is a better safe than sorry scenario. I feel outside medical (life threatening or close to it) or reasons reasonably outside your control (rape) abortions shouldn't be legal. I don't understand why people can't live with their choices and actions. Yes, it sucks that people have to live with their mistakes, but I also don't think it's really a good idea to offer a no-consequence way out of having unprotected or unsafe sex. Sure, accidents do happen. But these are the risks everyone takes. Mostly my issue with things like abortion, birth control, etc isn't that they exist or what ethical / moral responsibilities are debated around them. My issue is raising a generation of people who have zero investment in their decisions. A generation of people who can't take responsibility. Offering people contingencies is a good idea, but undo buttons for serious issues cushions them from the realities of life. Things everyone needs to face in order to become an actual, responsible human being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudslag Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) The truth is Abortion is wrong and should not be something that is allowed. If you don't believe that then you are severely lacking any sense of morality. That's a subjective opinion. That's basically saying "I don't like your views so you suck". Stoffel and Tonicgoofy 2 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compl3x Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Most countries don't allow late abortions, so it doesn't have to be all or nothing. Of course the logic of allowing or disallowing at x or y week is arguable, but so is the logic of allowing until birth. What is it with birth that makes it somehow able to give personhood? It's a very outdated and unscientific idea. Based on what, your personal disagreement with the criteria? What makes a fertilised egg a 'person'? Mostly my issue with things like abortion, birth control, etc isn't that they exist or what ethical / moral responsibilities are debated around them. My issue is raising a generation of people who have zero investment in their decisions. A generation of people who can't take responsibility. Offering people contingencies is a good idea, but undo buttons for serious issues cushions them from the realities of life. Things everyone needs to face in order to become an actual, responsible human being. "This generation isn't as sensible, smart, and hard working as my generation was. Hey, kid get off my lawn!" It was the greed, selfishness, and short-sightedness of previous generations which very well may have left my and future generations totally screwed. On top of it we keep getting told how lazy and selfish we are. Incredible. Tonicgoofy 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emn1ty Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 "This generation isn't as sensible, smart, and hard working as my generation was. Hey, kid get off my lawn!" It was the greed, selfishness, and short-sightedness of previous generations which very well may have left my and future generations totally screwed. On top of it we keep getting told how lazy and selfish we are. Incredible. I didn't say anything about past generations being better. I'm talking about future generations who's administration effectively advertised that they can have sex cause Uncle Sam has them covered with the morning after pill. I don't care about what generation is better, it's never good to make such things inconsequential. Abortions are serious things that should be used in serious situations, not just cause people want to have wanton sex without consequence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonicgoofy Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I didn't say anything about past generations being better. I'm talking about future generations who's administration effectively advertised that they can have sex cause Uncle Sam has them covered with the morning after pill. I don't care about what generation is better, it's never good to make such things inconsequential. Abortions are serious things that should be used in serious situations, not just cause people want to have wanton sex without consequence. Abortions have nothing to do with having sex without consequences. A lot of people just do not have the correct sexual education and are not aware of alternative to having unprotected sex. You are making a big assumption here. And regardless of this, if someone wants to have unprotected sex and not have children, it is THEIR choice to make, not yours. Very few people say, well it's okay I can get an abortion so it's no biggie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mockingbird Posted August 1, 2015 Author Share Posted August 1, 2015 (edited) Because i value human life, look i dunno what the hell they are teaching you guys out in CA but apparently it's not having any value of human life no matter how small. The fact that we have accepted basically killing babies in utero because the responsibility of raising and caring for that kid is a burden really shows how F-ed up our society is now. My hometown has a higher than average rate of teenage pregnancy. My aunt just adopted a baby and isn't looking to adopt another and there just aren't many other people in town looking to adopt babies. So how about you take some personal responsibility and adopt them? How about all you anti-abortion people put your names on a list? Each of you will then be assigned by lottery unwanted babies. So what does qualify it as a human being? That it "Looks" like one? That it has to be 100% fully developed and near term before you classify it as a human? A fetus is not a baby just as an acorn is not an oak tree. Edited August 1, 2015 by illegaloperation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre S. Veteran Posted August 1, 2015 Veteran Share Posted August 1, 2015 Based on what, your personal disagreement with the criteria? What makes a fertilised egg a 'person'? It used to be that we had no idea what the fetus looked like, so the only reasonable criterion of acceptance in society was birth. Now we know that it's a completely gradual process where birth is just one of the many events a human organism goes through from conception to adulthood, so the criterion is arbitrary and only exists for historical reasons. Unfortunately in these issues there's a predefined dichotomy where some class represents the powerful and some class represents the oppressed, and for a good while now the oppressed have been adult women. When the dust settles around women rights maybe we'll be able to talk about other the rights of other oppressed minorities, like the unborn. But for now talking about rights of the unborn is interpreted as siding with the bad guys on the women rights issue, so it's practically impossible. Mentalities are slowly evolving though. I have good hope some progress will be made during this century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memphis Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 My hometown has a higher than average rate of teenage pregnancy. My aunt just adopted a baby and isn't looking to adopt another and there just aren't many other people in town looking to adopt babies. So how about you take some personal responsibility and adopt them? How about all you anti-abortion people put your names on a list? Each of you will then be assigned by lottery unwanted babies. A fetus is not a baby just as an acorn is not an oak tree. I am not in favor of abortion in most circumstances. While my opinions are evolving still, especially after being exposed to Obstetrics in my career. I agree that unwanted children is a problem. I am FULLY in favor of free birth control for all with encouragement towards solutions that reduce chances of accidental pregnancy such as Implanon, etc. I do not come at this issue as a conservative, which is why I support sex education and birth control, but I still have allot of trouble with abortions themselves in most circumstances. +Raze 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mockingbird Posted August 2, 2015 Author Share Posted August 2, 2015 (edited) If abortion is banned, we will have more cases like this one: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3181923/Newborn-girl-alive-dumpster-Kentucky-1-charged.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memphis Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 If abortion is banned, we will have more cases like this one: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3181923/Newborn-girl-alive-dumpster-Kentucky-1-charged.html Not surprised this is kentucky. You can't be anti abortion and anti sex education/birth control and expect no issues to arise from it. Stoffel 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compl3x Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 It used to be that we had no idea what the fetus looked like, so the only reasonable criterion of acceptance in society was birth. Now we know that it's a completely gradual process where birth is just one of the many events a human organism goes through from conception to adulthood, so the criterion is arbitrary and only exists for historical reasons. Unfortunately in these issues there's a predefined dichotomy where some class represents the powerful and some class represents the oppressed, and for a good while now the oppressed have been adult women. When the dust settles around women rights maybe we'll be able to talk about other the rights of other oppressed minorities, like the unborn. But for now talking about rights of the unborn is interpreted as siding with the bad guys on the women rights issue, so it's practically impossible. Mentalities are slowly evolving though. I have good hope some progress will be made during this century. You could have offered your view on what constitutes a human, or when a human life starts, instead you turn into some melodrama about how your worldview is suppressed because of feminism or women's rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre S. Veteran Posted August 4, 2015 Veteran Share Posted August 4, 2015 You could have offered your view on what constitutes a human, or when a human life starts, instead you turn into some melodrama about how your worldview is suppressed because of feminism or women's rights. Funny you would mention melodrama because this is usually how abortion debates get caught in when suggesting that human life doesn't actually begin at birth makes you some kind of defender of patriarchal society, or incapable of sympathy for rape victims and such ad hominems. Anyway if you want my opinion it's on the abortion thread and it's been there for a long time... don't think a discussion on when human life starts would be on topic here. https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/912080-official-abortion-discussion-thread/?do=findComment&comment=592929068 Mockingbird 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taliseian Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 First off, as it's been already said, those videos are nothing more than hack jobs that would make O'Keefe and his drooling idiots proud. Next, I find it much better that the aborted fetal tissue after is has been DONATED (PP can do nothing but destroy it unless they get approval) to be used for research into vaccines and cures for diseases. And lastly, if all the backward, religious zealots would keep their noses out from where they don't belong and let people have access to real and honest sex education, birth control pills, condoms, and proper medical care by not getting between a doctor and a patient, then the need for abortions would decrease drastically...but all they want to do is invade people's private lives and tell them how to live, who to love, and who to marry. Honestly, between the same-sex marriage ruling and this made up crap I'm personally fed up with the religious right trying to shove their bibles down my throat.......and they are the ones that cry "religious freedom"....makes me f'n sick. T Stoffel 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mockingbird Posted August 4, 2015 Author Share Posted August 4, 2015 (edited) Funny you would mention melodrama because this is usually how abortion debates get caught in when suggesting that human life doesn't actually begin at birth makes you some kind of defender of patriarchal society, or incapable of sympathy for rape victims and such ad hominems. Anyway if you want my opinion it's on the abortion thread and it's been there for a long time... don't think a discussion on when human life starts would be on topic here. https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/912080-official-abortion-discussion-thread/?do=findComment&comment=592929068 I have a compromise for you. You and your anti-abortion friends will put all your names on a list. The list shall then be used to randomly assigned unwanted babies whom you shall care as your own. In return, we shall accept that human life begins at contraception. Deal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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