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Windows 10 aero taskbar?

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MikeChipshop    3,458

Give me one example of why the amount of money they're asking for their software is ridiculous?

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tompkin    153

Chrome can't run Office (Sorry forgot to add that to the list)

Online Twitter sucks

Who seriously runs Netflix through the browser?

You play local music through the browser too? No.

Local photos in the browser, again, really?

Wunderlist, and Flipboard either have no online equivalent, or work better in app form.

Instagram has no online use since you cannot upload via the webpage, and just generally sucks at life.

 

On the Office thing, I think he was meaning that the Office apps (local) on Windows 7 were superior. You CAN run Office 365 via Chrome (which I do). Last I checked Edge hadn't caught up to Chrome yet in functionality.

Online Twitter sucks??? How is that?


On local music, again, I think he was saying that WMC is superior to local apps on Windows 10. 

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shockz    5,435

 

Mail, Calendar, Tweetium, Pictures, VLC, Wunderlist, Flipbook, Readit, Fitbit, and Netflix.

Soon to be Facebook, and Instagram.

You are the epitome of what is wrong with Microsoft. Those are not superior alternatives. Mail, Calendar and Pictures receive numerous criticisms from the majority of users. Even Edge. You have Microsoft pleading users in insider builds to not switch to alternatives.

They are nonsense, functionality stripped, neutered versions of the regular Win32 apps. Show me a solid, non Microsoft universal app that isn't social media app or to some sort of accessory. I can't even work in Modern office all day, and have to resort to the Win32 Office apps to remain productive.

Universal apps may one day be a reasonable alternative, and that's a big if. If tablets become the main stream computing device, MS will be 3rd in an already saturated market dominated by Android and Apple. But for now, you basically saying universal is the end all be all of how things should be today is completely short sighted.

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Dot Matrix    7,417

You are the epitome of what is wrong with Microsoft. Those are not superior alternatives. Mail, Calendar and Pictures receive numerous criticisms from the majority of users. Even Edge. You have Microsoft pleading users in insider builds to not switch to alternatives.

They are nonsense, functionality stripped, neutered versions of the regular Win32 apps. Show me a solid, non Microsoft universal app that isn't social media app or to some sort of accessory. I can't even work in Modern office all day, and have to resort to the Win32 Office apps to remain productive.

Universal apps may one day be a reasonable alternative, and that's a big if. If tablets become the main stream computing device, MS will be 3rd in an already saturated market dominated by Android and Apple. But for now, you basically saying universal is the end all be all of how things should be today is completely short sighted.

And regular software doesn't draw Criticism? Rome wasn't built over night. Win32 never started out as powerful as it is now, and the same holds true for universal apps. But mobility isn't going away, and is only getting more powerful. The market for desktops has stalled, and to maintain two different operating systems is insane. Universal apps will get better with time.

 

 

 

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shockz    5,435

to maintain two different operating systems is insane. Universal apps will get better with time.

 

 

 

No. It isn't. There's no reason why Microsoft should force a mobile solution down regular PC users throats. My work laptop is touch based and I rarely use it aside from swiping between apps. The power and accuracy of a trackpad is superior to a finger and I don't have to worry about using a stylus or losing it. Apple maintains two OSes and the reviews from their customer base are vastly better than anything Microsoft has done the past 3 iterations of Windows.

Either way, it doesn't matter what I think, but they will continue to receive criticism on how they are progressing. Windows 10 fixes a lot of problems 8 had, don't get me wrong, but as a whole, the in house universal apps are incomplete, beta and they are using paying consumers as guinea pigs. Hopefully they get their ###### together the next 2-3 years or else people will start leaving in droves to better mobile opportunities and all they'll have left is upset desktop and laptop users stuck with a touch interface they really can't use. Like it or not, desktops and laptops will be here for a very, very long time. Anyone who wants to type an essay or do actual work and not just read and consume content will agree.

Edited by shockz
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+Fahim S.    1,085

You are the epitome of what is wrong with Microsoft. Those are not superior alternatives. Mail, Calendar and Pictures receive numerous criticisms from the majority of users. Even Edge. You have Microsoft pleading users in insider builds to not switch to alternatives.

They are nonsense, functionality stripped, neutered versions of the regular Win32 apps. Show me a solid, non Microsoft universal app that isn't social media app or to some sort of accessory. I can't even work in Modern office all day, and have to resort to the Win32 Office apps to remain productive.

Universal apps may one day be a reasonable alternative, and that's a big if. If tablets become the main stream computing device, MS will be 3rd in an already saturated market dominated by Android and Apple. But for now, you basically saying universal is the end all be all of how things should be today is completely short sighted.

Really? Are we really going to have this debate again.

The 'modern' development platform, doesn't constrain what sort of apps are built on it.  It is naturally going to take some time before any serious applications are built for it, especially given that it hasn't been taken even remotely seriously until Windows 10 was released.

Modern applications don't require a touch screen, a tablet or anything.  It is a platform for how applications are built.

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Active.    1,696
 

The 'modern' development platform, doesn't constrain what sort of apps are built on it.  It is naturally going to take some time before any serious applications are built for it, especially given that it hasn't been taken even remotely seriously until Windows 10 was released. 

One would assume that Microsoft takes it seriously? Thus their own apps should give you a pretty good idea of what is or isn't feasible on the development platform in practice.

...no ?

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HawkMan    5,232

I just don't like Microsoft at all. I am very cynical when it comes to Microsoft. The amounts of money Microsoft asks for their software is simply ridiculous. I completely understand them making Win10 free... they get the money from corporations who are locked into their OS. Inovation happens everywhere, all Microsoft and many other companies do is assimilate other software into their own. I just wonder if I had have had the same reaction if I had said the same thing about Apple or Linux...

Are you sure neoWIN is the site for you?

and yes, you pretty much would. we have enough fanboys of both here. and both of those do the same thing you just accused MS of doing so... perhaps you run your own BSD build?

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HawkMan    5,232

 

They are nonsense, functionality stripped, neutered versions of the regular Win32 apps. Show me a solid, non Microsoft universal app that isn't social media app or to some sort of accessory. I can't even work in Modern office all day, and have to resort to the Win32 Office apps to remain productive.

Power Director - powerful fully featured video editor

Movie Edit Touch - slightly simpler and easier. that doesn't translate to neutered. more aimed at regular users to be able to easily edit and put together clips without learning and mastering more advanced suited with more complex workflows like power director

Advanced Audio Editing - I'm not an audio guy but that's a pretty fully featured advanced audio editor. And far cheaper than what you would normally have to pay for a probably more advanced desktop audio editor. but even if those can do more, this one will probably cover the needs of most home users and amateurs. 

That's a quick search. besides that. being a simpler version of a desktop app isn't a bad thing. it just makes at an alternative that's designed for easier use. 

Also Mail and calendar are two apps that replace live mail as a single app. while windows/live mail arguably was more complex, there isn't really much if anything you can do in it that you can't do with mail app. and mail app looks a LOT nicer and better to use. There is one thing I miss and that's a unified inbox view. If I need something more advance or for office use, I'll use outlook(which also doesn't have a unified inbox view)

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shockz    5,435

Movie Edit Touch - slightly simpler and easier. that doesn't translate to neutered. more aimed at regular users to be able to easily edit and put together clips without learning and mastering more advanced suited with more complex workflows like power director

Advanced Audio Editing - I'm not an audio guy but that's a pretty fully featured advanced audio editor. And far cheaper than what you would normally have to pay for a probably more advanced desktop audio editor. but even if those can do more, this one will probably cover the needs of most home users and amateurs. 

That's a quick search. besides that. being a simpler version of a desktop app isn't a bad thing. it just makes at an alternative that's designed for easier use. 

Also Mail and calendar are two apps that replace live mail as a single app. while windows/live mail arguably was more complex, there isn't really much if anything you can do in it that you can't do with mail app. and mail app looks a LOT nicer and better to use. There is one thing I miss and that's a unified inbox view. If I need something more advance or for office use, I'll use outlook(which also doesn't have a unified inbox view)

But that's exactly it, you're even saying it. "simpler" "more advanced suite [on win32]", "for home users and amateurs" What's the incentive to use or even develop apps that aren't as powerful as their regular counterparts?

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DevTech    1,517

They're not restoring any Windows 7 code. Nothing was restored from what was removed in Windows 8. DWM was never removed. What's left is in fact being removed, and replaced.

You are so completely wrong that it is like we are talking about two completely different subjects.

You are looking at surface issues like UI widgets and not the backing code that all of the UI depends on.

This code is in the layer beneath DWM and Sinofsky literally had stuff ripped out so that clever programmers would not be able to make use of it. It was a completely vindictive thing he he did connected with his corporate politics and his extreme antipathy to anything .NET

When I say this code is quietly being returned, neither you nor I can know if they are cutting and pasting old code or re-developing but the net effect will be the same. Your general tone seems to indicate that you don't really have any interest in actually learning anything but if I'm wrong, you can read through the sample C++ code in the Microsoft Composition github and also various comments by BigMuscle who has investigated the issue in depth as part of his Glass project.

Because of Sinofsky's pillaging rage fit through the Windows UI, the current Windows Titlebar is a mess which is being worked on for Threshold or Redstone. None of this stuff is really a secret anymore, you just have to dig a bit. For example, Sinofsky killed the WPF team then made no statement of guidance for the multitude of huge enterprise projects using WPF other than "switch to apps" which was about as stupid as Microsoft could get to annoy major customers. The WPF group has been recreated and is actively working on updates to WPF. Hopefully they have a dartboard with Sinofsky's picture on it.

As a developer, I absolutely love the Windows XAML App Store development model, but Windows is so much larger than that and Microsoft is large enough to support a multitude of development models to support their customers unique and varied needs and hopefully erase the memory of Sinofsky's Apple-Envy complete  with "Apple Arrogance (tm) Sinofsky Edition"

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DevTech    1,517

But that's exactly it, you're even saying it. "simpler" "more advanced suite [on win32]", "for home users and amateurs" What's the incentive to use or even develop apps that aren't as powerful as their regular counterparts?

The Windows Desktop is not going away. Adobe Photoshop is a great example of how this environment will continue for a very long time and Microsoft promotes this particularly powerful advantage of Windows even in the context of Pro tablets and Surface Book.

That being said, there is nothing about the programming infrastructure behind a Windows Universal App that prevents it being used to implement the power of Photoshop. A future developer of such a complex program might very well rise up to the challenge of detecting a switch to tablet mode and presenting a VERY different UI. This takes time and careful design and we haven't seen it yet.

The real mystery right now is that the team making the main Windows 10 Apps that ship in the box have had all that time and presumably resources to be able to showcase the potential and they have completely dropped the ball there and by default have created the impression of a false divide that does not need to exist.

When things get that weird, I smell politics and maybe even some legacy of SInofsky. Microsoft has managed to remove or sideline most of Sinofsky's group of idiots at a management level but perhaps there is still vestiges of "Sinofskyism" remaining in various development teams. I also suspect these Microsoft Apps are being developed in Javascript instead of C#/XAML and the team involved might be running into roadblocks. If so, a high price to pay for Sinofsky's "make Javascript programs inside a browser and make them look like a Windows program" plan. Microsoft has had lots of time to make those Apps amazing and if we are all being honest, "Amazing" is not a word anyone will apply to them.

 

 

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DevTech    1,517

 

Really? Are we really going to have this debate again.

The 'modern' development platform, doesn't constrain what sort of apps are built on it.  It is naturally going to take some time before any serious applications are built for it, especially given that it hasn't been taken even remotely seriously until Windows 10 was released.

Modern applications don't require a touch screen, a tablet or anything.  It is a platform for how applications are built.

The debate will keep coming until non-developers can see the result.

There is one very talented developer that has had plenty of time to showcase the platform with amazing apps that could open eyes and despite advance access to code, huge resources and time measured in years, Microsoft has produced underwhelming ho-hum who-cares Apps as the showcase in-the-box apps for Windows.

The more you think about it, the more WTF face slapping WTF it gets. That team is making a mockery of some fantastic platform technology.

 

 

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HawkMan    5,232

But that's exactly it, you're even saying it. "simpler" "more advanced suite [on win32]", "for home users and amateurs" What's the incentive to use or even develop apps that aren't as powerful as their regular counterparts?

Maybe if you read/quote everything I said there and not cherry pick stuff that fits your agenda, making it seem like I said something i didn't. I believe that's called a strawman. 

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HawkMan    5,232

 

The Windows Desktop is not going away. Adobe Photoshop is a great example of how this environment will continue for a very long time and Microsoft promotes this particularly powerful advantage of Windows even in the context of Pro tablets and Surface Book.

That being said, there is nothing about the programming infrastructure behind a Windows Universal App that prevents it being used to implement the power of Photoshop. A future developer of such a complex program might very well rise up to the challenge of detecting a switch to tablet mode and presenting a VERY different UI. This takes time and careful design and we haven't seen it yet.

The real mystery right now is that the team making the main Windows 10 Apps that ship in the box have had all that time and presumably resources to be able to showcase the potential and they have completely dropped the ball there and by default have created the impression of a false divide that does not need to exist.

When things get that weird, I smell politics and maybe even some legacy of SInofsky. Microsoft has managed to remove or sideline most of Sinofsky's group of idiots at a management level but perhaps there is still vestiges of "Sinofskyism" remaining in various development teams. I also suspect these Microsoft Apps are being developed in Javascript instead of C#/XAML and the team involved might be running into roadblocks. If so, a high price to pay for Sinofsky's "make Javascript programs inside a browser and make them look like a Windows program" plan. Microsoft has had lots of time to make those Apps amazing and if we are all being honest, "Amazing" is not a word anyone will apply to them.

 

 

Photoshop is an interesting example. It's a software that's gotten so complex over the years even Adobe doesn't have full overview of the source code. It's a giant tower that they keep building on. They have over time tried to clean up code, but there's so much of it. Rewriting it would take years and years. so all they can do is add to the tower. this means you won't really see it as anythign but a simple more user friendly version on other platforms. 

Someone somewhere wrote a very good article about the Adobe photoshop code tower. 

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shockz    5,435

 

Maybe if you read/quote everything I said there and not cherry pick stuff that fits your agenda, making it seem like I said something i didn't. I believe that's called a strawman. 

Not a strawman, thanks for glazing over everything I posted. Not surprising.

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HawkMan    5,232

Not a strawman, thanks for glazing over everything I posted. Not surprising.

Actually it was a strawman since you ignored 90% of my reply, specifically the stuff you cut out just next to the part you quoted. And no, I read your whole one sentence you replied to me with. 

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shockz    5,435

 

Actually it was a strawman since you ignored 90% of my reply, specifically the stuff you cut out just next to the part you quoted. And no, I read your whole one sentence you replied to me with. 

Well now we're just wasting time. One "advanced" program that has an even more advanced desktop version. I don't know what else you want me to say.

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DevTech    1,517

Well now we're just wasting time. One "advanced" program that has an even more advanced desktop version. I don't know what else you want me to say.

you and hawk are stuck in a loop of one-liner cat-fighting that really looks silly to other readers

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Lamp0    632

I think the real question is: Does Windows 10 look good enough?

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Raa    1,534

I think the real question is: Does Windows 10 look good enough?

And the real answer depends on who's judging it.

To me, it doesn't look as good as Vista/7.
To others, it looks better.
Each to their own. But as I've said repeatedly give the user the choice.

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Lamp0    632

But as I've said repeatedly give the user the choice.

There are no other theme choices to give.

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Jared-    575

Neowin is either full of n00bs, or home users....

So many non-issues in this thread. 

 

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HawkMan    5,232

And the real answer depends on who's judging it.

To me, it doesn't look as good as Vista/7.
To others, it looks better.
Each to their own. But as I've said repeatedly give the user the choice.

The thing is. some choice you can't give and preserve functionality. Then there's the fact that choice cost money and doesn't make sense when the goal is to make a unified OS that's the same for everyone so that anyone can sit down on any computer and know how to use it and how it works. For those who want choice, they can still hack files and mod stuff to apply themes. I've yet to see any themes for windows in any version that doesn't have at least one or two severe bugs and countless small ones. sometimes you'll accept them and live with them others won't. 

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bluesman86    360

 

It should be whatever year you want it to be on your own personal computer. Hmmm funny how it's called a PC...

You sound like you own Apple products and want some sort of design duality where each company gets their own special corps of Zombies to appreciate Sir Jonathan Ive and whoever you think should get a Knighthood at Microsoft for similar acts of Godhood.

You are welcome to collect stamps, keep a fish tank, re-build old motorcycles in your garage and a thousand other things that humans find interesting and other humans don't. So don't strain your neurons too much worrying about people who like to hack their PCs

Windows is large enough to encompass anything, a nice wide expanse of freedom too scary for the UI Police. I've walked into companies where I.T. departments religously take every new version of Windows and give them the "Windows 2000 Grey Box" look and wouldn't even understand your concerns around "slick and modern" and I'm sure there are even Unicorns somewhere worshiping Sinofsky.

Everyone thinks their sense of "design" is the "correct" view but please respect the traditions of Windows customization, respect for other viewpoints or we run the risk of being told what to think like Apple Zombies...

You can be a Zombie if you want, but to expect social conformity around a user interface so you can feel better seems like you can't handle the fact that MS is actually catering to their culturally diverse user population (that you call children because they don't agree with you) by gradually restoring the Windows 7 code that Sinofsky ripped out. Microsoft is doing the right thing by promoting a standard initial "Window Dressing" and then listening to their user base to allow all the diversity that made Windows strong and robust. Guess they won't get that Knighthood after all, just happy customers.

 

 

Well, like I said, if your life feels incomplete without glass-effects in your OS, you can stick to 7 or install one of those plugins to hack it back in and make it look like ######. If you want to, you can have it your way. It's just a ridiculous notion that Microsoft should cater to a small group of people crying over change. There's still idiots out there who are still running XP and thinking they're sticking it to the man. I'm still baffled that people care this much. Life's way too busy and interesting to get worked up over trivial ###### like this.

Bottom line is: aero ain't coming back. The code is gone.

deal-with-it-fish.jpg

 

really? wonder what went so wrong with his thought processes?

 

You can't be innovative and successful without taking chances. They took a huge risk with Windows 8, and massive kudos to MS for that. Reception wasn't too great but it paved the way for Windows 10, and it allowed them to launch the Surface line. Big picture vs small picture. Small-minded people will only see the small picture and declare people/projects/people failures at face value. Innovators don't think like that. To guys like him, Windows 8 was merely a bump in the road and a necessary step to take Windows into the future. They learned from it, changed what needed to be changed, and powered on to release their best OS yet.

Forward thinking & Microsoft don't belong in the same sentence sorry.

Have you missed their latest devices conference? Most impressive and innovative stuff I've seen since the launch of the iPhone 4. 

I just don't like Microsoft at all. I am very cynical when it comes to Microsoft. The amounts of money Microsoft asks for their software is simply ridiculous. I completely understand them making Win10 free... they get the money from corporations who are locked into their OS. Inovation happens everywhere, all Microsoft and many other companies do is assimilate other software into their own. I just wonder if I had have had the same reaction if I had said the same thing about Apple or Linux...

They ask 110 bucks for Windows 10. How is that ridiculous. It's an OS that you use all the time, and you'll be allowed to use it for at at least 10 years. 

Let's assume your PC lasts 5 years. That's 1825 days. You don't use it every single day, so let's assume you use it 1700 days total or so. That amounts to $0.06 a day, for something you use for hours every day for work, entertainment, your family photos, movies, music, etc.  That's not a bad deal at all. 

Office 365: 7 bucks a month. The most powerful office suite out there that you use for almost everything work and school-related + 1 TB of cloud storage. That's not a bad deal at all.

There's a reason why Microsoft is still so big. Their software is simply the best solution for the majority of situations. 

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