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Windows 10 aero taskbar?

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Dot Matrix    7,430

Bottom line is: aero ain't coming back. The code is gone.

To be fair, the DWM code which made Aero possible is still in Windows. The legacy shell still runs it, the Aero theme was removed in favor of the modern colorful one in Windows 8, and remained reletively unchanged in 10. The new modern theme just doesn't use transparency. Eventually, I can see where DWM is removed once the remaining legacy bits have been replaced.

There was Windows Vista/7 code removed in Windows 8 and Windows 10 (legacy start menu, gadgets, Windows classic theme, Control Panel applets, etc) that have not been "restored", as the OP puts it. These bits will not be coming back, either. 

Edited by Dot Matrix
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+Fahim S.    1,086

To be fair, the DWM code which made Aero possible is still in Windows. The legacy shell still runs it, the Aero theme was removed in favor of the modern colorful one in Windows 8, and remained reletively unchanged in 10. The new modern theme just doesn't use transparency. Eventually, I can see where DWM is removed once the remaining legacy bits have been replaced.

There was Windows Vista/7 code removed in Windows 8 and Windows 10 (legacy start menu, gadgets, Windows classic theme, Control Panel applets, etc) that have not been "restored", as the OP puts it. These bits will not be coming back, either. 

DWM is going nowhere.  It does more than provide fancy effects such as transparency or shadows.  Read the section on desktop composition: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/greg_schechter/archive/2006/03/05/544314.aspx

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DevTech    1,517

Well, like I said, if your life feels incomplete without glass-effects in your OS, you can stick to 7 or install one of those plugins to hack it back in and make it look like ######. If you want to, you can have it your way. It's just a ridiculous notion that Microsoft should cater to a small group of people crying over change. There's still idiots out there who are still running XP and thinking they're sticking it to the man. I'm still baffled that people care this much. Life's way too busy and interesting to get worked up over trivial ###### like this.

Bottom line is: aero ain't coming back. The code is gone.

Well you can enjoy your hobby as a member of the UI Police but as I've mentioned in previous posts, your are 100% wrong. The code is coming back. Bit by bit.

Freedom. Some people like the freedom to chose... Others like Apple so they feel warm and comfy that there is a higher authority telling them the "one right way to do anything" and this warm paternalistic feeling creates a shared culture that they label "Hip" so the desire to eliminate personal freedom can be justified.

You don't have to like "glass effects" but having a complete lack of respect for people that like it is an immature outlook that ignores that it was promoted by Microsoft as a major feature of the O/S and Microsoft customers paid for this product feature and to have it arbitrarily removed due to a single man's mean spirited vendetta in the past is not something to support. Microsoft is slowly doing the right thing by removing SInofsky people in their organization and restoring these features.

You can personally dislike the idea freedom and options, or specifically a future toggle option for glass effects in Windows 10 but spreading disinformation about Microsoft's activity in this area that implies Microsoft is NOT listening to their customers is misguided if you think you are somehow promoting Windows 10 by doing so.

 

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DevTech    1,517

 

DWM is going nowhere.  It does more than provide fancy effects such as transparency or shadows.  Read the section on desktop composition: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/greg_schechter/archive/2006/03/05/544314.aspx

I have also given him stuff to read. It is a waste of time. He has a false mental model of the code architecture and is determined to promote it as some sort of "viewpoint"

 

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Dot Matrix    7,430

 

DWM is going nowhere.  It does more than provide fancy effects such as transparency or shadows.  Read the section on desktop composition: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/greg_schechter/archive/2006/03/05/544314.aspx

I have also given him stuff to read. It is a waste of time. He has a false mental model of the code architecture and is determined to promote it as some sort of "viewpoint"

 

You guys are assuming DWM will be around forever.

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DevTech    1,517

There are no other theme choices to give.

Have you been reading this thread?

There are tons of choices that users can select if they are interested enough. And that's OK.

There is the other end of the spectrum where the first thing "Mr. I.T Guy" does is turn every possible UI thing off and make it look like Windows 2000. And that's OK.

Then there is the vast middle who don't care and are essentially outside the topic of this thread. And that's OK.

And then there are the UI Police guys who are actually annoyed if you want to know something about not being the "Sheep in the Middle" and are actually curious about your own personal computer. And that's NOT OK.

 

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DevTech    1,517

 

You guys are assuming DWM will be around forever.

I feel a bit silly using up text here. But here goes one last time.

The code that you are dreaming is in DWM is actually part of the Windows API and will in fact be around forever.

Forever. Forever. Forever.

It is known as Windows Composition. Learn about it  or not as you wish.

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Ian W    2,331

You guys are assuming DWM will be around forever.

Er, the DWM is what composites the windows on the Windows desktop, and it has been updated in every release since Windows Vista. It is not going anywhere.

Unless I am misinterpreting what you have written, I do not know why you would consider it to be a legacy component. The DWM is a fundamental part of Windows; the fact that it cannot be disabled starting with Windows 8 attests to this.

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Dot Matrix    7,430

 

Er, the DWM is what composites the windows on the Windows desktop, and it has been updated in every release since Windows Vista. It is not going anywhere.
Unless I am misinterpreting what you have written, I do not know why you would consider it to be a legacy component. The DWM is a fundamental part of Windows; the fact that it cannot be disabled starting with Windows 8 attests to this.

I feel a bit silly using up text here. But here goes one last time.

The code that you are dreaming is in DWM is actually part of the Windows API and will in fact be around forever.

Forever. Forever. Forever.

It is known as Windows Composition. Learn about it  or not as you wish.

Nothing is forever. Especially in computing. I'm not saying it's legacy, but somewhere down the line it will be superseded by another technology, just like Stacking window manager was.

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DevTech    1,517

Neowin is either full of n00bs, or home users....

So many non-issues in this thread. 

 

It might be more accurate to say there are no issues in this thread that personally interest you.

But there are lots of "big picture" issues being discussed along with the strange social issue of "UI Police" which I suspect is an Apple affliction or thought-virus of some sort.

I guess "Freedom of Choice" can also be classified as a social issue although it is also a business issue in terms of customer expectations.

"Why can't Microsoft make a stunning showcase App" is a big issue that is a mystery that affects people's decisions on technology adoption.

"Transparency Effects in UI Design" is a big issue. It has a strange (probably temporary) social factor but of course transparency is vital to a huge array of future interfaces such as Augmented Reality, Big Data Visualization, Virtual Reality etc.

Educating Neowin members on the underlying architecture of Windows is also a valuable effort perhaps.

 

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Ian S.    758

Yes because flat colors look all that much better. YAY Windows 3.1 :D

Give me Aero any day, it's miles ahead when it comes to looking good.

Cheesy false-glass... no way. :no: Funny how that taskbar in the image is Windows 8's taskbar and WITHOUT the translucency.

Everyone loves to complain, Microsoft does something people complain, Microsoft changes something people complain. Microsoft goes back on something people complain. and so on and so forth. 

The op image is Windows 8's taskbar

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Dot Matrix    7,430

I have also given him stuff to read. It is a waste of time. He has a false mental model of the code architecture and is determined to promote it as some sort of "viewpoint"

 

You provided nothing but DeviantArt links. Not source material.

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DevTech    1,517

You provided nothing but DeviantArt links. Not source material.

Seriously?

When I say things like read the Microsoft Composition code samples on GitHub, you need a link?

But sure here is one:

https://github.com/Microsoft/composition

In addition to the actual demo code which is illuminating, there are some talks linked to in the description.

Also, if you follow the Microsoft employees working on that some of them have their own GitHubs and links to other talks.

Although the amount of code Microsoft has made open source on GitHub is mind boggling, the Windows internals are not (yet) there for examination.

So reading between the lines of the code, they are moving to expose more GPU level interaction with basic UI surfaces which is exactly the approach the UI team used with Windows 7 glass. Except this new stuff is more carefully constructed as a much more ambitious general purpose solution that runs efficiently across the entire range of devices.

I'll be happy to respond if you are curious about any technical points based on examining the material. If your intention is to score some sort of imaginary brownie points on an internet forum, then I won't respond and you can notch up another "victory"

 

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Ian W    2,331

Seriously?

When I say things like read the Microsoft Composition code samples on GitHub, you need a link?

Why could you not post the link? You are the one who referred to the material.

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DevTech    1,517

Why could you not post the link? You are the one who referred to the material.

Because it is dirt simple to find? Because every person has only so many seconds to live and that's it baby?

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Ian W    2,331

Because it is dirt simple to find? Because every person has only so many seconds to live and that's it baby?

You do not see the incongruity in your post.

If you had posted the link before, it would have saved every Neowinian who is interested in your claims from having to perform individual searches for the material
.

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DevTech    1,517

You do not see the incongruity in your post.
If you had posted the link before, it would have saved every Neowinian who is interested in your claims from having to perform individual searches for the material
.

From the Peaceful Warrior - "There is no higher calling than service to others"

So in that you are correct.

So what did you think of the material I linked to?

 

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Ian W    2,331

So what did you think of the material I linked to?

I must admit that I have not read it yet, but I do intend to.

For what it may or may not be worth, I already agree with most of your statements about DWM, Windows Aero, et cetera, and it would seem that you base at least some of these statements around the material. It should make for an interesting read.

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bluesman86    360

To be fair, the DWM code which made Aero possible is still in Windows. The legacy shell still runs it, the Aero theme was removed in favor of the modern colorful one in Windows 8, and remained reletively unchanged in 10. The new modern theme just doesn't use transparency. Eventually, I can see where DWM is removed once the remaining legacy bits have been replaced.

There was Windows Vista/7 code removed in Windows 8 and Windows 10 (legacy start menu, gadgets, Windows classic theme, Control Panel applets, etc) that have not been "restored", as the OP puts it. These bits will not be coming back, either. 

Windows 10 does have transperancy.

 

DWM is going nowhere.  It does more than provide fancy effects such as transparency or shadows.  Read the section on desktop composition: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/greg_schechter/archive/2006/03/05/544314.aspx

In Windows 10 the DWM version jumped to 2.0. It's much more efficient than in previous versions.

 

Well you can enjoy your hobby as a member of the UI Police but as I've mentioned in previous posts, your are 100% wrong. The code is coming back. Bit by bit.

Freedom. Some people like the freedom to chose... Others like Apple so they feel warm and comfy that there is a higher authority telling them the "one right way to do anything" and this warm paternalistic feeling creates a shared culture that they label "Hip" so the desire to eliminate personal freedom can be justified.

You don't have to like "glass effects" but having a complete lack of respect for people that like it is an immature outlook that ignores that it was promoted by Microsoft as a major feature of the O/S and Microsoft customers paid for this product feature and to have it arbitrarily removed due to a single man's mean spirited vendetta in the past is not something to support. Microsoft is slowly doing the right thing by removing SInofsky people in their organization and restoring these features.

You can personally dislike the idea freedom and options, or specifically a future toggle option for glass effects in Windows 10 but spreading disinformation about Microsoft's activity in this area that implies Microsoft is NOT listening to their customers is misguided if you think you are somehow promoting Windows 10 by doing so.

 

UI Police? You're hilarious, man. I don't care about this whole thing, you're the one who does. I'm just trying to point out how silly you're being. The code isn't coming back. You're delusional.

There's a thing called a design language that a company decides to go with. It keeps things consistent. With Windows 10, Microsoft decided to go for a flat look. This look comes back in all their applications and advertisements. No way they're bringing back the glass effects. That would be stupid. I hate to break it to you, but you're a member of a small group, and Microsoft, nor anyone else, gives a ###### about what this small group is crying about, because the outcome said group desires is silly. You want Microsoft to invite inconsistency into their design language. It's just not gonna happen. They're working very hard to get this whole thing consistent as it is. Go look at the Universal Windows app design guidelines and you'll see they also recommend designers to stick to this.

I like the idea of freedom of options, but only if they make sense. What you want doesn't make sense. Microsoft isn't bringing aero glass back. I'm sure you'll be able to get it somehow through some 3rd party application, but that has nothing to do with Microsoft. 

And for the record, I love aero glass. I still think Vista is one of the best looking OSes ever made. It looked great in Windows 7, too. But it has no place in Windows 10. 

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Dot Matrix    7,430

Seriously?

When I say things like read the Microsoft Composition code samples on GitHub, you need a link?

But sure here is one:

https://github.com/Microsoft/composition

In addition to the actual demo code which is illuminating, there are some talks linked to in the description.

Also, if you follow the Microsoft employees working on that some of them have their own GitHubs and links to other talks.

Although the amount of code Microsoft has made open source on GitHub is mind boggling, the Windows internals are not (yet) there for examination.

So reading between the lines of the code, they are moving to expose more GPU level interaction with basic UI surfaces which is exactly the approach the UI team used with Windows 7 glass. Except this new stuff is more carefully constructed as a much more ambitious general purpose solution that runs efficiently across the entire range of devices.

I'll be happy to respond if you are curious about any technical points based on examining the material. If your intention is to score some sort of imaginary brownie points on an internet forum, then I won't respond and you can notch up another "victory"

 

Browsing through this, I see no references to moving back to an aero glass UI. Sure, they may be looking to increase GPU interaction, but that's not indicative of moving back to a glass like interface. 

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Dot Matrix    7,430

Windows 10 does have transperancy. 

Yeah... That post doesn't make any sense now that I go back and read it. That's what I get for writing it before having had my coffee.

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Scorbing    517

And look, you guys just have to deal with the fact that Aero is over. Flat design is the thing now, and you will get used to it eventually. No point in staying stuck in the past, and why care so much anyway? It's not like the new style gets in the way of your work or anything.  

Many people hated the ###### out of Aero when it first came out, too. Think about that.

Very true. I debated and debated until last night, I finally gave up and installed Windows 10. I'm I thrilled with it? No. Do I like Windows 7 better? yes, but unfortunately Microsoft is not going to add anything new to Windows 7. They are just gonna let it die like XP and Vista and eventually force you to move to 10.

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DevTech    1,517

Browsing through this, I see no references to moving back to an aero glass UI. Sure, they may be looking to increase GPU interaction, but that's not indicative of moving back to a glass like interface. 

I have come to the conclusion we are discussing two very different things that have little in common.

Microsoft is putting the code into place to enable just about any future UI including ones with various levels of transparency (i.e. Glass and cousins) and neither of us has a crystal ball to predict the future.

My point all along has been that quietly behind the scenes Microsoft is repairing the damage that Sinofsky did and reasonably soon within 6 months programmers can use this code if they want (as it should be)

What anyone prefers for a UI, I don't care. And I shouldn't care for other people's subjective preferences and neither should the UI Police.

If we want to play "Crystal Ball" there is a huge emphasis in all recent Microsoft presentations on Hololens and it is clear that with eventual uptake of advanced UI technologies like that, there will be an increasing emphasis on transparency effects which is the technical underpinnings of Augmented Reality. Thus will most likely influence Microsoft UI design over time and hey guess what - they are fixing the O/S right now to handle this in the future. I don't know and you don't know what future design decisions they will make...

 

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DevTech    1,517

Windows 10 does have transperancy.

In Windows 10 the DWM version jumped to 2.0. It's much more efficient than in previous versions.

UI Police? You're hilarious, man. I don't care about this whole thing, you're the one who does. I'm just trying to point out how silly you're being. The code isn't coming back. You're delusional.

There's a thing called a design language that a company decides to go with. It keeps things consistent. With Windows 10, Microsoft decided to go for a flat look. This look comes back in all their applications and advertisements. No way they're bringing back the glass effects. That would be stupid. I hate to break it to you, but you're a member of a small group, and Microsoft, nor anyone else, gives a ###### about what this small group is crying about, because the outcome said group desires is silly. You want Microsoft to invite inconsistency into their design language. It's just not gonna happen. They're working very hard to get this whole thing consistent as it is. Go look at the Universal Windows app design guidelines and you'll see they also recommend designers to stick to this.

I like the idea of freedom of options, but only if they make sense. What you want doesn't make sense. Microsoft isn't bringing aero glass back. I'm sure you'll be able to get it somehow through some 3rd party application, but that has nothing to do with Microsoft. 

And for the record, I love aero glass. I still think Vista is one of the best looking OSes ever made. It looked great in Windows 7, too. But it has no place in Windows 10. 

I'm the one that keeps saying to give users choice and you are the one that keeps finding that uncomfortable. What I want does make sense. It's called choice. I don't care what design language of the month Microsoft wants to ship in the box as long as they provide the hooks for their customers to do what they want with it. There is no conflict at all there. Just a disturbing idea to some people that people might choose a bit differently than what Steve Jobs/Sir Jonathan Ive has chosen for them. Whoops did I get the companies confused there?

The code for Glass is going back into Windows and neither you nor I know if Microsoft will make use of it in the future for UI Chrome or not. I don't care if Windows ships with "Ugly Glass" or "Ugly Flat" or "Ugly Metro is Our Design Language until we call it Modern whoops Store App whoops UAP whoops UWP" as long as the code is there to be used.

 

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bluesman86    360

 

Very true. I debated and debated until last night, I finally gave up and installed Windows 10. I'm I thrilled with it? No. Do I like Windows 7 better? yes, but unfortunately Microsoft is not going to add anything new to Windows 7. They are just gonna let it die like XP and Vista and eventually force you to move to 10.

In a couple of months, you'll be just fine with it, trust me.

 

 

I'm the one that keeps saying to give users choice and you are the one that keeps finding that uncomfortable. What I want does make sense. It's called choice. I don't care what design language of the month Microsoft wants to ship in the box as long as they provide the hooks for their customers to do what they want with it. There is no conflict at all there. Just a disturbing idea to some people that people might choose a bit differently than what Steve Jobs/Sir Jonathan Ive has chosen for them. Whoops did I get the companies confused there?

The code for Glass is going back into Windows and neither you nor I know if Microsoft will make use of it in the future for UI Chrome or not. I don't care if Windows ships with "Ugly Glass" or "Ugly Flat" or "Ugly Metro is Our Design Language until we call it Modern whoops Store App whoops UAP whoops UWP" as long as the code is there to be used.

 

 

I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but no, what you want really doesn't make sense. Looking at it the way you do is almost child-like. I don't care what you say or how many genius engineers, researchers and designers think this is the best way, I want it my way! 

You obviously do not understand the basic principles of UI/UX-design. The most important and fundamental aspect of good design in UI/UX is consistency. The reason OSX and iOS look so slick is because they're extremely consistent with everything they do. Even if you don't like the particular graphic style or Apple in general (like yours truly), there's simply no denying that everything about it completely makes sense in that particular world, and nothing looks out of place graphically. 

Coming up with an in-house style and making it consistent is incredibly difficult, especially when it comes to something as huge as Windows. Microsoft started their flat design style with Windows 8, which was announced in 2011 and has been in development years before that. It took many years and a lot of money, but they're finally getting close to perfecting that design style with Windows 10. They're not there yet, but they're well on their way, and the way they listen to feedback is very promising. 

What makes you think that putting Aero, a design style that was last seen in Windows 7, a 6-year old OS that's in extended support now, would be a good idea? It would instantly break the consistency of the OS itself and all the 3rd party apps that adhere to the current design guidelines. It's just not going to happen, because it would be a stupid decision on many levels. By following your logic, they should also give users the choice of going back to the look of Windows 95, or Windows 1.0, because choice is good, right? Wrong. The world is moving forward, and so should you, because whining about change never held it back.

Windows 10 has flat design, and that's all it will ever have. The long and short of this entire debate is that you will just have to deal with that. There's no way in hell they're going to change the entire look of the OS that they've established and marketed all over the place for months now. 

Install a 3rd party app if not having glass effects in your OS gives you anxiety, because Microsoft isn't ever going to give it to you in Windows 10. 

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