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Windows 10 aero taskbar?

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Dot Matrix    7,438

 

I'm the one that keeps saying to give users choice and you are the one that keeps finding that uncomfortable. What I want does make sense. It's called choice. I don't care what design language of the month Microsoft wants to ship in the box as long as they provide the hooks for their customers to do what they want with it. There is no conflict at all there. Just a disturbing idea to some people that people might choose a bit differently than what Steve Jobs/Sir Jonathan Ive has chosen for them. Whoops did I get the companies confused there?

The code for Glass is going back into Windows and neither you nor I know if Microsoft will make use of it in the future for UI Chrome or not. I don't care if Windows ships with "Ugly Glass" or "Ugly Flat" or "Ugly Metro is Our Design Language until we call it Modern whoops Store App whoops UAP whoops UWP" as long as the code is there to be used.

 

I have a feeling Microsoft will be developing one UI that works and fits across XBox, PCs, tablets, and Phones. Windows Vista's glass UI does not fit that mantra, sorry. Elements that still use what's left of the old shell - Control Panel, for example - are slated for removal in the near future. 

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DevTech    1,518

 

I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but no, what you want really doesn't make sense. Looking at it the way you do is almost child-like. I don't care what you say or how many genius engineers, researchers and designers think this is the best way, I want it my way! 

You obviously do not understand the basic principles of UI/UX-design. The most important and fundamental aspect of good design in UI/UX is consistency. The reason OSX and iOS look so slick is because they're extremely consistent with everything they do. Even if you don't like the particular graphic style or Apple in general (like yours truly), there's simply no denying that everything about it completely makes sense in that particular world, and nothing looks out of place graphically. 

Coming up with an in-house style and making it consistent is incredibly difficult, especially when it comes to something as huge as Windows. Microsoft started their flat design style with Windows 8, which was announced in 2011 and has been in development years before that. It took many years and a lot of money, but they're finally getting close to perfecting that design style with Windows 10. They're not there yet, but they're well on their way, and the way they listen to feedback is very promising. 

What makes you think that putting Aero, a design style that was last seen in Windows 7, a 6-year old OS that's in extended support now, would be a good idea? It would instantly break the consistency of the OS itself and all the 3rd party apps that adhere to the current design guidelines. It's just not going to happen, because it would be a stupid decision on many levels. By following your logic, they should also give users the choice of going back to the look of Windows 95, or Windows 1.0, because choice is good, right? Wrong. The world is moving forward, and so should you, because whining about change never held it back.

Windows 10 has flat design, and that's all it will ever have. The long and short of this entire debate is that you will just have to deal with that. There's no way in hell they're going to change the entire look of the OS that they've established and marketed all over the place for months now. 

Install a 3rd party app if not having glass effects in your OS gives you anxiety, because Microsoft isn't ever going to give it to you in Windows 10. 

It rather seems more if your are looking for child like attitude is is you who can only see one way.

I have never argued anyways for the return of the Windows 7 "Interface", just the return of the underlying code that was ripped out and Microsoft agrees with me and a whole lot of their customers because that is exactly what they are doing.

You and Sinofsky appear to share huge Apple-envy and you argue for a Apple approach and hold Apple up as a design example to emulate both of which is a child like and simplistic attitude that Apple can get away with due to the walled garden lock-in they were able to achieve mostly by blind luck of timing leading to being able to dictate to carriers.

Besides the obvious, you argue for change as if it is a progression of some sort and not just an arbitrary branding effort. People are not whining although UI Police love that word, they have valid UI issues that you sweep under the rug by pretending that the "Tyranny of the New" justifies running over thoughtful individuals just so you can feel comfortable adopting a social meme.

Sinofsky is gone. Get over it. His friends have been weeded out. There is a reason for that. The era of Apple aspirations are over and Microsoft is listening to customers again. If you want the "do it this way or else" approach, buy an Apple. If you think that Windows 10 which is now on infinite upgrade cycle is going to keep the same flat chrome you like so much over the next 20 years, you obviously haven't paid attention.

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DevTech    1,518

I have a feeling Microsoft will be developing one UI that works and fits across XBox, PCs, tablets, and Phones. Windows Vista's glass UI does not fit that mantra, sorry. Elements that still use what's left of the old shell - Control Panel, for example - are slated for removal in the near future. 

I really think nobody is listening and I'm about to give up educating people. Almost every advanced demo Microsoft shows of the future UI has Glass. Glass is vital to Augmented Reality interfaces and other advanced UI. Microsoft has made concept videos of where UI is headed and guess what? Glass.

You are looking a limited period in history and then extrapolating it into the future while completely ignoring all the actual research Microsoft has been doing in this area.

When they switch over, I guess you will be one of those who say "it was obvious all along" - there is absolutely nothing preventing a sweeping UI deployment in the future across all the devices. That's why they are (or will be) running the same O/S. It will become trivial to evolve the current limited UI into the future UI across the entire spectrum.

In the short term, of course it makes sense to not have two control panels and other duplication. They have also put the WPF team back together after having been disbanded by Sinofsky 4 years ago so that the Windows Desktop side of things can also get improved for immediate value to real customers who don't buy into your "one size fits all" approach. The Sinofsky era is dead so get over it. Microsoft is a huge company that wants to satisfy the extremely varied needs of its customers and if takes a multiple UI approaches to do that, Sir Jonathan Ive will just have to look the other way. Good thing he works for the competition.

Eventually in 3 years or 5 years or 10 years all the pieces might  consolidate by rolling out that futuristic Glass UI. We can meet back here and I will argue that users should have a choice to keep the ugly flat UI of "early era Windows 10" just because choice is good! Of course attempting to look through a non-transparent UI with your HoleLens Mark 5, might make that choice to "stay flat" a bit hard to stick with...

 

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bluesman86    360

It rather seems more if your are looking for child like attitude is is you who can only see one way.

I have never argued anyways for the return of the Windows 7 "Interface", just the return of the underlying code that was ripped out and Microsoft agrees with me and a whole lot of their customers because that is exactly what they are doing.

You and Sinofsky appear to share huge Apple-envy and you argue for a Apple approach and hold Apple up as a design example to emulate both of which is a child like and simplistic attitude that Apple can get away with due to the walled garden lock-in they were able to achieve mostly by blind luck of timing leading to being able to dictate to carriers.

Besides the obvious, you argue for change as if it is a progression of some sort and not just an arbitrary branding effort. People are not whining although UI Police love that word, they have valid UI issues that you sweep under the rug by pretending that the "Tyranny of the New" justifies running over thoughtful individuals just so you can feel comfortable adopting a social meme.

Sinofsky is gone. Get over it. His friends have been weeded out. There is a reason for that. The era of Apple aspirations are over and Microsoft is listening to customers again. If you want the "do it this way or else" approach, buy an Apple. If you think that Windows 10 which is now on infinite upgrade cycle is going to keep the same flat chrome you like so much over the next 20 years, you obviously haven't paid attention.

Jesus f-ing Christ, you're unbelievable. UI-Police? What, are we 12 here?

I don't have Apple-envy, nor do I even like them. I just used their design style as an example, because they do have the consistency part of it nailed. Just because I prefer Windows over Mac, doesn't mean everything Apple does is bad. That fanboy nonsense is so immature. 

I love how you didn't do anything to counter anything I posted. By referring to the look and change as a "branding effort" just proves to me that you indeed don't have the slightest idea how UI/UX design works. This whole thing doesn't have anything to do with Apple aspirations or turning Windows into a closed product. It has to do with a consistent experience, just like every version before it. Windows 10 is flat, and they've been doing a good job of making it look the same everywhere. Re-introducing glass would instantly ruin that.

The only person who needs to "get over it" is you and all the other crybabies who can't deal with change, and apparently have enough free time in their day to worry about trivial ###### like glass effects in a user interface. 

I really think nobody is listening and I'm about to give up educating people. Almost every advanced demo Microsoft shows of the future UI has Glass. Glass is vital to Augmented Reality interfaces and other advanced UI. Microsoft has made concept videos of where UI is headed and guess what? Glass.

You keep repeating this, but you haven't posted a single link with proof. Show me some official images where you get that from.

And even if this is true, it doesn't mean it will make its appearance in the Windows 10 desktop.

Eventually in 3 years or 5 years or 10 years all the pieces might  consolidate by rolling out that futuristic Glass UI. We can meet back here and I will argue that users should have a choice to keep the ugly flat UI of "early era Windows 10" just because choice is good! Of course attempting to look through a non-transparent UI with your HoleLens Mark 5, might make that choice to "stay flat" a bit hard to stick with...

Who knows what software will look like in 10 years. It will be different than today, that's for sure, but today is today, and that's all we have and will ever have. Might as well use your energy for something useful.

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tompkin    153

No we aren't going "back". The future is the future. But as I've said before, right now Microsoft is sliding into a company whose main market is business. Their earning reports reflect that.

To the extent that Surface is successful in business, that is the degree that their mobile strategy will be successful for the near future. I can see where a Windows 10 desktop/surface/continuum platform would be attractive for businesses. But even then, it will take a number of years for it to truly take hold because .NET is so entrenched. 

The Surface price point is too high for the average user and the benefits of continuum to them are not at all obvious now.

Windows Phone has too much inertia going against it in the consumer space. By the time it could ever hope to succeed in the market, the rest of the world would have moved on. That is why, I believe, that Microsoft announced their new strategy would be toward businesses, enthusiasts, and emerging markets.

The "next" opportunity for Windows 10 in the consumer space will be embedded devices. If you look in the "Wearables" forum as I type this, you'll see that there is a total of 9 posts in the entire forum. That should change drastically in the future.

Microsoft has said (and it's true) that Windows 10 is also designed for devices. When they come out at a Developers Conference and these devices are the hot topic, the Windows Phone of today will be a distant memory.

That's what I call "moving on".   

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DevTech    1,518
 
You keep repeating this, but you haven't posted a single link with proof. Show me some official images where you get that from.

And even if this is true, it doesn't mean it will make its appearance in the Windows 10 desktop.

 

Who knows what software will look like in 10 years. It will be different than today, that's for sure, but today is today, and that's all we have and will ever have. Might as well use your energy for something useful.

Your Ad-Hominen attacks just make you look immature and silly and are the refuge of people who don't have a good argument. You bring up "immature" and "childish" so often that it suggests you have insecurities in that area or else can't see how silly that makes you look.

You don't want to collaborate or listen, just score debating points. I'm sure you will make a point of getting in "the last post" in this imaginary debate of yours so you can think you have won. You are welcome to that satisfaction.

Microsoft does not agree with your line of reasoning and have firmly entrenched the "childish" idea of supporting their vast spectrum of customers after a brief flirtation with Apple Arrogance (tm) of the Sinofsky era. They have cleaned house. Sinofsky and his gang of idiots are long gone.

Microsoft can change their mind on anything at all in the future if it is good business but at the moment Windows 10 is supposed to be the "last" version of Windows by using continuous updates. This obviously means the current UI will transform into something else on some sort of periodic basis which is why the Glass code is going back into Windows. It's so simple and nothing to do with your perceived view of different versions of Windows as some sort of rare vintage of wine - Windows is Windows that always evolved the kernel and pasted a refreshed "look" to brand a new version for sales reasons.

The investigation of UI and projections into the future may be a waste of time to you because you aren't interested in that but for others it may be an interesting activity. You are very quick to tell other people what to do and what to think but my point all along has been to let people decide for themselves what they are interested in.

 

 

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DevTech    1,518

No we aren't going "back". The future is the future. But as I've said before, right now Microsoft is sliding into a company whose main market is business. Their earning reports reflect that.

To the extent that Surface is successful in business, that is the degree that their mobile strategy will be successful for the near future. I can see where a Windows 10 desktop/surface/continuum platform would be attractive for businesses. But even then, it will take a number of years for it to truly take hold because .NET is so entrenched. 

The Surface price point is too high for the average user and the benefits of continuum to them are not at all obvious now.

Windows Phone has too much inertia going against it in the consumer space. By the time it could ever hope to succeed in the market, the rest of the world would have moved on. That is why, I believe, that Microsoft announced their new strategy would be toward businesses, enthusiasts, and emerging markets.

The "next" opportunity for Windows 10 in the consumer space will be embedded devices. If you look in the "Wearables" forum as I type this, you'll see that there is a total of 9 posts in the entire forum. That should change drastically in the future.

Microsoft has said (and it's true) that Windows 10 is also designed for devices. When they come out at a Developers Conference and these devices are the hot topic, the Windows Phone of today will be a distant memory.

That's what I call "moving on".   

The main theme of the thread is generally transparency effects in Windows.

There are some people that are defining "moving on" as "accept SInofsky's vendetta to remove glass code from Windows" but his vision of "moving on" has been effectively cancelled by Microsoft as a giant mistake and so it's NOT the future. Just a dead branch on a possible future that will never happen.

"Moving on" into the future in this case is repairing the Sinofsky damage and then actually "MOVING ON" with a full complement of tools in the toolbox. Having non-damaged UI code in the underlying Windows API means that eventually Microsoft will evolve the higher layers that people see (and get surprisingly passionate about) to permit the transparency effects that will be absolutely required for future UI such as Augmented Reality.

So the people that actually like the Sinofsky approach of a crippled Windows like to portray people that disagree with them with a variety of terms here all of which translate to "you must agree with with me or I will use name calling"

So the sillyness means there is a bit of a noise level in this thread but the give and take of information flow can still be food for thought.

That all being said, your take on "moving on" is a different discussion around Microsoft product strategy in the future and they have already stated they don't want to play "catch up" but invent new markets presumably within the new theme of making people more productive.

It's unclear to me where IOT fits into that. I suspect IOT is more of an "Enterprise" play as businesses everywhere will move to real time instrumentation of everything.

 

 

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tompkin    153

Sorry for going wildly off-topic. I was basically getting at that we aren't going back. 

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SoCalRox    246

One of the things which drove me nuts with Windows 7 was just this (color hot track). Different strokes, for sure. 

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DevTech    1,518

"Sorry for going wildly off-topic."

I don't have any problem with the idea of discussing IOT and other future directions Microsoft might be considering and even the ton of stuff they are working on that is not secret but nobody pays attention to it because it isn't at a point yet to be "branded"

I think there are lots of interesting things that we will be seeing and I didn't want your excellent points to be confused with the various subjective definitions the phrase "moving on" was being given in this thread so I was just giving you a head's up on the weird but interesting strangeness in this thread.

Things like HoloLens and IOT are examples of real forward motion. The Surface Book might be another.

 

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DevTech    1,518

One of the things which drove me nuts with Windows 7 was just this (color hot track). Different strokes, for sure. 

It would be so easy to make those various methods a user choice in the control panel  or at least a registry edit. You could always start a UserVoice item and if it get enough votes Microsoft will certainly consider it. The new Microsoft  - "we like the idea of having happy customers again" - they really do use the UserVoice to prioritize their development sprints.

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Anibal P    2,055

I really hope whoever DevTech is that he/she isn't in UI design or in programming, 

Your mindset is why we were saddled with XP for as long as we did and held back computing for too long, even Vista was a huge improvement over XP, and so was 7 over Vista, etc 

You're not getting your outdated UI back unless you skin it yourself, contrary to what some believe you can ruin 10 with any horrid skin you want, even make it look like XP of that gets you off, but it will not make a comeback form MS, they have moved on like they needed to 

 

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DevTech    1,518

I really hope whoever DevTech is that he/she isn't in UI design or in programming, 

Your mindset is why we were saddled with XP for as long as we did and held back computing for too long, even Vista was a huge improvement over XP, and so was 7 over Vista, etc 

You're not getting your outdated UI back unless you skin it yourself, contrary to what some believe you can ruin 10 with any horrid skin you want, even make it look like XP of that gets you off, but it will not make a comeback form MS, they have moved on like they needed to 

 

You have managed to completely misunderstand just about everything I have said.

I have never been talking about a surface skin which essentially is just how Microsoft Brands new versions of the evolved Windows O/S so they will look different and people will buy it as a new product. Simple business.

I have been talking about the underlying code and I don't care at all what you do with that on the top surface - set it to the typical I.T. Windows 2000 look that is the first thing they do to every new version of Windows! Now that's consistancy...

For some strange and bizarre reason some people here liked the fact that Sinofsky ripped code out of Windows to handle transparency and they squawk like prima donna pink flamingos at the idea that Microsoft is sensibly putting that code back into place.

For drama queen purposes people keep choosing to make my comments about the underlying code as some sort of one-to-one correspondence to making the exact Windows 7 UI an option for Windows 10 which frankly I don't care about one way or the other.

Sinofsky is gone. You all liked his Apple arrogant tactics. Too bad. He's gone. His cronies are gone. The whole idiotic branch has been excised from Microsoft like cauterizing a wound. End of story.

Moving forward into the future, the transparency code is back inside Windows. What Microsoft will do with it you don't know and I don't know but obviously they will expose it into the UI layer as they see fit and clearly and inevitably future user interfaces are going to require transparency effects.

Let's hope you are not into UI Design or programming because these simple concepts have escaped you and you have no imagination it would seem.

(I mirror your ad-hominem to illustrate the sillyness of it - ad-hominem is used by the weak minded when no reasonable statement seems available to them or at the very least it is a sign of fuzzy thinking)

 

 

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Anibal P    2,055

You have managed to completely misunderstand just about everything I have said.

I have never been talking about a surface skin which essentially is just how Microsoft Brands new versions of the evolved Windows O/S so they will look different and people will buy it as a new product. Simple business.

I have been talking about the underlying code and I don't care at all what you do with that on the top surface - set it to the typical I.T. Windows 2000 look that is the first thing they do to every new version of Windows! Now that's consistancy...

For some strange and bizarre reason some people here liked the fact that Sinofsky ripped code out of Windows to handle transparency and they squawk like prima donna pink flamingos at the idea that Microsoft is sensibly putting that code back into place.

For drama queen purposes people keep choosing to make my comments about the underlying code as some sort of one-to-one correspondence to making the exact Windows 7 UI an option for Windows 10 which frankly I don't care about one way or the other.

Sinofsky is gone. You all liked his Apple arrogant tactics. Too bad. He's gone. His cronies are gone. The whole idiotic branch has been excised from Microsoft like cauterizing a wound. End of story.

Moving forward into the future, the transparency code is back inside Windows. What Microsoft will do with it you don't know and I don't know but obviously they will expose it into the UI layer as they see fit and clearly and inevitably future user interfaces are going to require transparency effects.

Let's hope you are not into UI Design or programming because these simple concepts have escaped you and you have no imagination it would seem.

(I mirror your ad-hominem to illustrate the sillyness of it - ad-hominem is used by the weak minded when no reasonable statement seems available to them or at the very least it is a sign of fuzzy thinking)

 

 

And yet I have a transparent taskbar in Windows 10, I also have a transparent CMD prompt window!! And all I did was install an official windows theme, didn't have to resort to using a third prty app to theme it. I guess your argument had you done any actual research is moot 

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DevTech    1,518

 

And yet I have a transparent taskbar in Windows 10, I also have a transparent CMD prompt window!! And all I did was install an official windows theme, didn't have to resort to using a third prty app to theme it. I guess your argument had you done any actual research is moot 

You are not making any sense at all.

All I have said all along is that some amount of transparency code has been restored into Windows 10 after the SInofsky hack and slash in WIndows 8 and they are restoring more until there is a complete toolbox for Microsoft to work with.

At the moment you might notice that the Glass blur effect is not yet back in place. It used 3D surface textures to offload to the GPU which was very advanced for the time they introduced it but now just about everyone is offloading to GPU (even browsers) and I'm sure we will see that restored for Threshold or Redstone.

One of the functions that used to use that code was Window Title text and Windows 10 could really use it when you set the color of your Window to black or charcoal etc.

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+Fahim S.    1,093

You are not making any sense at all.

All I have said all along is that some amount of transparency code has been restored into Windows 10 after the SInofsky hack and slash in WIndows 8 and they are restoring more until there is a complete toolbox for Microsoft to work with.

At the moment you might notice that the Glass blur effect is not yet back in place. It used 3D surface textures to offload to the GPU which was very advanced for the time they introduced it but now just about everyone is offloading to GPU (even browsers) and I'm sure we will see that restored for Threshold or Redstone.

One of the functions that used to use that code was Window Title text and Windows 10 could really use it when you set the color of your Window to black or charcoal etc.

Just out of interest, what is the evidence that the code got removed 'by Sinofsky'?

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libertas83    153

 

Just out of interest, what is the evidence that the code got removed 'by Sinofsky'?

It is well known from those that followed the Insider stuff with MS. Aero was stripped out at the last minute in the Windows 8 timeframe and then Sinfosky posted a huge blog post about moving on from Aero and how "dated" it was. Several ex-MS have posted their experiences and journalists have posted what they heard.

I couldn't read this entire thread, but the basic arguments are so ridiculous. Are there any real tech guys or developers in here?

Universal Apps, how they look and how they function  now doesn't mean crap about the future of UI. Aero can come back or it won't. You can't predict it based on evidence of it not being here today. Universal Apps is just WinRT which is just a newer API built on the same .NET Framework as before. It was built on XAML which means it is very much capable of having Aero since that was baked into WPF which was.....XAML. Shocker.

So if you don't know anything about the backend of how WinRT works, can you please exit this conversation.

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+Fahim S.    1,093

It is well known from those that followed the Insider stuff with MS. Aero was stripped out at the last minute in the Windows 8 timeframe and then Sinfosky posted a huge blog post about moving on from Aero and how "dated" it was. Several ex-MS have posted their experiences and journalists have posted what they heard.

I couldn't read this entire thread, but the basic arguments are so ridiculous. Are there any real tech guys or developers in here?

Universal Apps, how they look and how they function  now doesn't mean crap about the future of UI. Aero can come back or it won't. You can't predict it based on evidence of it not being here today. Universal Apps is just WinRT which is just a newer API built on the same .NET Framework as before. It was built on XAML which means it is very much capable of having Aero since that was baked into WPF which was.....XAML. Shocker.

So if you don't know anything about the backend of how WinRT works, can you please exit this conversation.

I take it that the blog post you are talking about is this one: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2012/05/18/creating-the-windows-8-user-experience.aspx

I am struggling to see how people are making the connection between 'we aren't using that visual style/design language any more' to 'we took out the capability of the desktop compositing engine that does graphical transformations'.  I believe the truth in the former but struggle to understand what the evidence is for the latter. It's quite possible that I am missing something here.

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NinjaGinger    205

I remember the good old days of user choice as far as customiation was concerned, now, it seems to be feared by those who used to allow it.

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Ian W    2,331
Universal Apps, how they look and how they function  now doesn't mean crap about the future of UI.

They matter now and that is all that matters. The industry is very much focusing on the adaptive interface design that Unversal Applications offer. Even websites are adaptive!

Aero can come back or it won't.

Has anyone said that it cannot?

Universal Apps is just WinRT which is just a newer API built on the same .NET Framework as before. It was built on XAML which means it is very much capable of having Aero since that was baked into WPF which was.....XAML. Shocker.

While Universal Applications are powered by WinRT, the API is not "built on the same .NET Framework as before." Not only is such a statement incorrect, but it implies that the XAML in use by WPF and Universal Applications are one and the same—implementation details differ.

Moreover, WPF is not XAML. It is, as its name implies, an optional markup language for user interfaces, but developers do not have to use XAML to build WPF applications.

Finally, Windows Aero was not "baked into WPF" as you claim, but the Desktop Window Manager in Windows Vista—and by extension Windows Aero—do rely on the same unmanaged composition component as WPF: MILCore.

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libertas83    153

 

I take it that the blog post you are talking about is this one: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2012/05/18/creating-the-windows-8-user-experience.aspx

I am struggling to see how people are making the connection between 'we aren't using that visual style/design language any more' to 'we took out the capability of the desktop compositing engine that does graphical transformations'.  I believe the truth in the former but struggle to understand what the evidence is for the latter. It's quite possible that I am missing something here.

No one is saying that the DWM cannot do graphical transformations. Aero Glass was a specific effect that combined blur, transparency, and reflections that was coded into DWM. That effect was removed not simply by hiding it from you, but by removing the code for it. BTW, that is the proper way to remove a feature you don't want to support anymore, you don't leave it hanging around for no reason. 

The most popular method to bring back Aero Glass is from: http://www.glass8.eu/guide.html. As quoted from the site, "Aero Glass for Win8.x+ works by injecting re-implemented code into several DWM functions". So it is fairly clear that it was removed from Windows 8. It also had the effect of breaking Aero Glass Remoting from working when remoting from Windows 8 to Windows 7 which should have worked if Aero Glass code was still there.

Sinfosky's role in it is fairly clear because the man ran Windows from a top-down organization. He had a few top Lieutenants that were also responsible for Office 2007 redesign that designed Windows 8. He wanted full control and locked it down.

They matter now and that is all that matters. The industry is very much focusing on the adaptive interface design that Unversal Applications offer. Even websites are adaptive!

You misunderstood my point. I was saying you can't infer the future of Aero Glass based on if it does or does not exist in Universal Apps today. It may be planned in the future, it may not. Some of the posts in here stated that it not existing in Universal Apps as proof that it won't exist next year. The lack of something is not proof or evidence of the future. I also was not arguing against Universal Apps.

Has anyone said that it cannot?

Yes, I didn't quote everyone because I came in 5 pages late, but I certainly kept reading that Aero Glass is not coming back so move on. No one knows if it is or is not coming back. Microsoft did say if it was popular enough, they would consider it.

While Universal Applications are powered by WinRT, the API is not "built on the same .NET Framework as before." Not only is such a statement incorrect, but it implies that the XAML in use by WPF and Universal Applications are one and the same.

What makes you think it is not? You are implying there is no piece of .NET techonology in WinRT or shared history. Here are the pieces of tech that iis based (built) from .NET.

  • C# Language
  • CLR
  • XAML

Each of these technologies came from .NET which means it was built from .NET, C# being the biggest piece of technology it shares with it. Now, does that mean it is .NET Framework 5.0, not necessarily. WinRT 1.0 from Windows 8 gutted the full .NET API and removed the UI components from WinForms and WPF. So it is a new API built off a similar core from .NET. Just like Silverlight, .NET Framework Compact, .NET Framework Micro, and XDA.

Now with WinRT 2.0, they are heavily refactoring .NET into .NET Core which means my statement is still true. .NET Core is focused on unifying the .NET APIs to be more universal and cross-platform. .NET Native and ASP.NET 5.0 are the first APIs to build on top of this new Core. You can read more about it here which shows how much commonality there is between the 2 Frameworks: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dn584397(v=vs.110).aspx

Moreover, WPF is not XAML. It is, as its name implies, an optional markup language for user interfaces, but developers do not have to use XAML to build WPF applications.

Yes it is the same XAML that came from WPF. WPF is just an API that uses XAML for the front-end UI and C# as the backend. I never built a WPF app but I have not come across anything that says XAML is optional with it. I know they eventually brought in the ability mix in WinForms into your WPF app but I still think the majority of the app was XAML based. Either way, XAML was built for WPF, it took them 5 years to do it and then they ported it over to be used in Silverlight (WPF-Lite) and then WinRT. They certainly changed XAML a lot but it's built off the same technology otherwise it wouldn't be XAML.


Finally, Windows Aero was not "baked into WPF" as you claim, but the Desktop Window Manager in Windows Vista—and by extension Windows Aero—do rely on the same unmanaged composition component as WPF: MILCore.

WPF is an API on top of MILCore:https://maniish.wordpress.com/2007/10/08/whats-the-foundation-of-wpf-windows-presentation-foundation/ So yes, it was baked into WPF. It has since expanded of course but that goes back to my point, all of WinRT and its tech is based on the previous tech done from Windows Vista and .NET.

 

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Ian W    2,331
You misunderstood my point. I was saying you can't infer the future of Aero Glass based on if it does or does not exist in Universal Apps today. It may be planned in the future, it may not. Some of the posts in here stated that it not existing in Universal Apps as proof that it won't exist next year. The lack of something is not proof or evidence of the future.

My apologies for misunderstanding then.

I also was not arguing against Universal Apps.

That was the impression based on the language that was used.

What makes you think it is not? You are implying there is no piece of .NET techonology in WinRT or shared history. Here are the pieces of tech that iis based (built) from .NET.

It was not my intention to imply that there is no relationship between the two, but that software changes and improves, so it would not be correct to state that they are "built on the same .NET Framework as before." I reiterate that the implementation details are different, as you have stated in the quoted post.

Perhaps I misunderstood your point? Your previous post was ambiguous.

Yes it is the same XAML that came from WPF.

I did not say otherwise.

WPF is just an API that uses XAML for the front-end UI and C# as the backend.

Then WPF is not XAML, in spite of your previous comment, but again, your previous post was ambiguous, so perhaps I misunderstood.

I never built a WPF app but I have not come across anything that says XAML is optional with it.

I did not say that WPF applications do not use XAML, but that developers are not required to use XAML to build applications.

Either way, XAML was built for WPF, it took them 5 years to do it and then they ported it over to be used in Silverlight (WPF-Lite) and then WinRT. They certainly changed XAML a lot but it's built off the same technology otherwise it wouldn't be XAML.

The point was that WPF is not required to build Universal App UIs with XAML.

This was already stated, or at least it was implied.

So yes, it was baked into WPF.

If one considers that they both use MILCore, I can see why one would consider it "baked," but that is not how your post was interpreted. I did not think that you had referred to MILCore.

It has since expanded of course but that goes back to my point, all of WinRT and its tech is based on the previous tech done from Windows Vista and .NET.

Your most recent post really sheds light on your viewpoints, and the details about the various technologies. If your previous post had been so precise I would not have commented.

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sinetheo    586

I have a feeling Microsoft will be developing one UI that works and fits across XBox, PCs, tablets, and Phones. Windows Vista's glass UI does not fit that mantra, sorry. Elements that still use what's left of the old shell - Control Panel, for example - are slated for removal in the near future. 

It will be back Dot :-)

In technology what comes around goes around. 1st it was mainframes/dumb terminals with the mainframe as the core. Then it was all about the PC doing the work. Personal was about to get away from logging in and dealing with oppressive IT. The PC was personal and could go around this etc.  Then it became about the file server and internet web sites with the pc being the smart terminal. Then it became about apps on phones. Now with HTML 5 and clouds it is back the other way again etc. The cloud is about not dealing with oppressive IT. The cloud is personal again for the departments who set it up to get around IT etc.

Design styles it is the same way and no the Galaxy 4 had an aero like UI that was skuemorphic and not flat. So yes it can be done. Look at Office 2013 and compare it to Office 2016? The colors are back and Windows 10 is less flat than 8/8.1 and it's desktop background (in my opinion is hideous) is very realist with the solid colors of 8/8.1 gone. 

It is going back again to a certain extent. In 5 to 10 years Apple artists will think what we have now looks dated and will start adding skuemorphic and realistic elements will back as well. It happens.

Anyway, my opinion is MS will cave in and let Windows not be like Apple which has a controlled UI. Let the user control what he or she wants? You can see that now with the ability to change the color of a freaking title bar again. Finally the black and white of office 2013 and Windows 10 build 240 are coming to an end. 

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floopydoodle    158

 

It is a fact that whatever you want to name it, Aero code IS returning to the OS.

There is no technical reason that various Glass effects couldn't be exposed as a XAML style etc to the WIndows Runtime if Microsoft wanted to add it to the API.

Sinofsky's attempt to be a "Big Brother" Apple wannabe failed miserably and his take on the "App UI" will fade over time as Microsoft listens to customer feedback like they should have from the start.

The idea is choice. Apple gives NO choice. Microsoft has been an advocate of choice except for the "Sinofsky Experiment" and over time its hard to predict how things will evolve.

The internals of DWM and Windows Composition are still be worked on and updating very slowly since this is critical code that needs to be performant on a huge range of devices. Within practical technical restrictions there is an obvious intent to deliver over time as much customization as they can.

 

There is no Aero "code". What they did return due to feedback is internally called "Blur Behind" and it is simply a pixel shader.
Aero was a desktop theme, that's it. It was not about performance why they moved away from Aero. It's all just png images rendered by DWM anyway. Most of the Windows 10 theme is still png files, just a lot of them are simply a flat color.

While it was stated that Aero was designed to move focus away from the window chrome, that's just wrong and not based on scientific research.
There is a reason why the industry is moving to flat design other than that it's a trend.

If you're thinking MS is slowly undoing what Sinofsky did with Windows 8 you're deluded. They went even further with the minimal design with Windows 10, bringing it to the desktop and they also introduced wireframe icons.

 

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DevTech    1,518

There is no Aero "code". What they did return due to feedback is internally called "Blur Behind" and it is simply a pixel shader.
Aero was a desktop theme, that's it. It was not about performance why they moved away from Aero. It's all just png images rendered by DWM anyway. Most of the Windows 10 theme is still png files, just a lot of them are simply a flat color.

While it was stated that Aero was designed to move focus away from the window chrome, that's just wrong and not based on scientific research.
There is a reason why the industry is moving to flat design other than that it's a trend.

If you're thinking MS is slowly undoing what Sinofsky did with Windows 8 you're deluded. They went even further with the minimal design with Windows 10, bringing it to the desktop and they also introduced wireframe icons.

 

 

You are confusing underlying tech, GUI chrome, social trends and Product Branding in a ramble of fuzzy thinking.

And the tech level of participants in this thread varies all over the place so a word like "Aero" communicates something across all boundries so playing with words will not be a very helping thing to do here (IMO) unless some sort of drill-down is indicated.

It is amazing how people cling to Sinofsky like he was some sort of hero or lifeline. If that was so, Microsoft would not be removing all his "loyal band of idiots" inside the company and undoing much of his stupid moves like disbanding the WPF Team. Now after 4 years, the WPF Team lives again!

And 10 years from now you will pass by some computer in a dusty room still running the Windows 10 with the flat lifeless UI that nobody uses anymore and it will be sitting next to a WIndows 2000 computer with it's flat grey I.T. Windows and maybe you won't notice they are any different. UI trends are just an excuse for branding in the end and so just like the fashion industry in Paris, a new "look" will be coming down the tracks one after another but the entire house of cards works better if we don't admit this is the case. Shared delusion. Works for Apple... Oh wait. Apple Envy SInofsky is gone gone gone and Microsoft cares about customers again...

 

 

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