Official Religion Thread III

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Mazhar    55

Go back and read my post again, then engage your brain before replying because you didn't get anything right.

 

Okay so tell me who is trying to force laws on you based on religious beliefs that you do not share?

 

And who are the people that according to you come from other lands to your countries and then start demanding that the very laws they chose to flee from, be instigated in their new chosen home?

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+FloatingFatMan    13,164

Okay so tell me who is trying to force laws on you based on religious beliefs that you do not share?

 

And who are the people that according to you come from other lands to your countries and then start demanding that the very laws they chose to flee from, be instigated in their new chosen home?

 

It's been gone over many times in this and preceding threads.  Two such examples of laws being forced are:  In the US, creationists have and are trying to force legislation through that makes it a legal requirement for religious beliefs to be taught in science class, on equal footing with evolution.  Another such example are the Arab league trying to bring in international blasphemy laws in the UN, making it illegal for anyone to criticize Islam.

 

Other examples are people fleeing oppression in their home countries by such groups as the Taliban and Al Queda, and then lobbying for those same strict interpretations of Sharia being made law in the UK.  Essentially trying to turn the UK into the same kind of violent crap hole they ran away from.

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Mazhar    55

Isn't the whole quote:

 

 

That's not arguing no one should be forced into faith, it is essentially saying "Islam is correct, it has been made clear, you will be rewarded if you acknowledge this, and if you don't, Allah will know ( and you'll no doubt be punished)".

 

A far cry from "Don't force anyone into believing something they don't want to" which so many people claim the first part of that quote is suggesting. The punishment for not believing (and the rewards for believing) is clear:

 

 

 

If you only quote the first part, Islam seems fine with other beliefs or even disbelief. But like most things, when you dig a little deeper, you find it's not all mellow and fun-loving at all. It's an old apologist trick to dishonestly push the positive aspects of their belief but conceal the not so positive ones from the light of day.

 

So you believe in punishment? If yes, good then accept the religion, if not then why the hell you worry?

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compl3x    6,252

So you believe in punishment? If yes, good then accept the religion, if not then why the hell you worry?

 

 

I am objecting to the dishonest way people try to push that "Let there be no compulsion in religion" quote. It's cherry picking.

 

I fear no punishment from your god or anyone else's. I just wish you theists would be a little more honest and transparent about what it is your holy books say. I'd disagree with you all, but I'd have at least some level of respect for your honesty.

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Mazhar    55

It's been gone over many times in this and preceding threads.  Two such examples of laws being forced are:  In the US, creationists have and are trying to force legislation through that makes it a legal requirement for religious beliefs to be taught in science class, on equal footing with evolution.  Another such example are the Arab league trying to bring in international blasphemy laws in the UN, making it illegal for anyone to criticize Islam.

 

If these become law then it will not called to be forced because it is through legislation. They are presented before the legislation for approval.

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Mazhar    55

Other examples are people fleeing oppression in their home countries by such groups as the Taliban and Al Queda, and then lobbying for those same strict interpretations of Sharia being made law in the UK.  Essentially trying to turn the UK into the same kind of violent crap hole they ran away from.

 

How much percentage Taliban and Al Queda are in all of the Muslim population?

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+FloatingFatMan    13,164

If these become law then it will not called to be forced because it is through legislation. They are presented before the legislation for approval.

 

The point, which you missed so spectacularly, is that's it's religious people attempting to force religion based laws on those who do not hold the same beliefs.

 

And if you think people ignore laws because they have been legislated into being, then I'd like to know what planet you live on, because it's not Earth.

How much percentage Taliban and Al Queda are in all of the Muslim population?

 

Oh for goodness sake. Stop, go back, re-read my post and try again. 

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compl3x    6,252

How much percentage Taliban and Al Queda are in all of the Muslim population?

 

 

That wasn't his point. I think he was pointing out people flee oppressive Islamic regimes only to insist similar oppressive ideas be implemented in the countries they flee to.

 

Essentially, they are fleeing because they are the ones who are being oppressed, not doing the oppressing.

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+FloatingFatMan    13,164

That wasn't his point. I think he was pointing out people flee oppressive Islamic regimes only to insist similar oppressive ideas be implemented in the countries they flee to.

 

Essentially, they are fleeing because they are the ones who are being oppressed, not doing the oppressing.

 

Spot on!

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Mazhar    55

I am objecting to the dishonest way people try to push that "Let there be no compulsion in religion" quote. It's cherry picking.

 

I fear no punishment from your god or anyone else's. I just wish you theists would be a little more honest and transparent about what it is your holy books say. I'd disagree with you all, but I'd have at least some level of respect for your honesty.

 

What are you saying exactly? There is no one who is forcing you to accept the religion which says that if you believe in God you will go to heaven, if not you will go to hell. Why do you think would anyone hide it from anyone? You think we are hiding this "punishment" part from you? No that is not the case.

The point, which you missed so spectacularly, is that's it's religious people attempting to force religion based laws on those who do not hold the same beliefs.

 

Okay then do not approve it, if they think so.

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+FloatingFatMan    13,164

Okay then do not approve it, if they think so.

 

You're still missing the point, probably deliberately so.

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Mazhar    55

You're still missing the point, probably deliberately so.

 

I am not missing any point, may be you are not clear in what you are saying basically. Please be precise.

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compl3x    6,252

What are you saying exactly? There is no one who is forcing you to accept the religion which says that if you believe in God you will go to heaven, if not you will go to hell. Why do you think would anyone hide it from anyone? You think we are hiding this "punishment" part from you? No that is not the case.

 

 

 

Are you honestly arguing no one has ever had the Islamic faith forced upon them?If so, you desperately need a history lesson. It isn't happening to me because I am fortunate enough to live in the West in the 21st century. The secular nature of our system prevents anyone forcing religion on anyone else.

 

We are discussing the entirely dishonest way that "there is no compulsion in religion" line get thrown out as some proof of the tolerant nature of Islam. The entire quote exposes that simply isn't the case. Muslims proudly quote that compulsion bit while excluding the context of the quote. When a friend shared that quote with me for the first time I thought it was one of the admirable bits of Islam, indeed I even quoted it to others because I thought it was enlightened. when I bothered to research the entire quote some time later I realised it was just another piece of religious 'carrot and stick' philosophy (promise of a reward for belief, punishment for disbelief) relating to obedience, wrapped in a pretty bow.

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+FloatingFatMan    13,164

I am not missing any point, may be you are not clear in what you are saying basically. Please be precise.

 

What's the point? If you don't get it now, you won't get it even if I paint it in blood, 50 feet high, surrounded it with a thousand naked houris, enough fireworks to light the night sky for a month, and the prophet Mo himself nailed it to your forehead.

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McKay    3,695

mV4OutO.jpg

 

As a formally anointed Minister of this great religion I would be willing to welcome you with open arms.Let yourself be touched (not inappropriately) by his Noodly appendage. Even you would be welcomed FloatingFatMan. In our great Heaven we have a Stripper Factory and a Beer Volcano.

 

Live your life by the 8 "I'd really rather you didn'ts" 

 

  1. I'd really rather you didn't act like a sanctimonious holier-than-thou ass when describing my Noodley Goodness. If some people don't want to believe in me, that's OK. Really, I'm not that vain. Besides this isn't about them so don't change the subject
  2. I'd really rather you didn't use my existence as a means to Oppress, Subjugate, Punish, Eviscerate, and/or be mean to others. I don't require sacrifices and purity is for drinking water, not people.
  3. I'd really rather you didn't judge people for the way they look, dress, talk, or well, just play nice, OK? And get this into your thick heads: Woman = Person. Man = Person. Samey - Samey. One is not better than the other, unless we're talking about fashion and I'm really sorry. But I gave that to Women and some Guys who know the difference between Teal and Fuchsia.
  4. I'd really rather you didn't indulge in conduct that offends yourself, or your willing, consenting partner of legal age and mental maturity. As for anyone who might object, I think the expression is "Go ###### yourself", unless they find that offensive in which case they can turn off the TV and go for a walk for a change.
  5. I'd really rather you didn't challenge the bigoted, misogynistic, hateful ideas of others on an empty stomach. Eat, then go after the bastards
  6. I'd really rather you didn't built multimillion-dollar churches/temples/mosques/shrines to my Noodly Goodness when the money could be better spent.
  7. I'd really rather you didn't go around telling people I talk to you, You're not that interesting, get over yourself. And I told you to love your fellow Man, can't you take a hint?
  8. I'd really rather you didn't do unto others, as you would have them do unto you, if you're into, um, stuff that uses a lot of leather, lubricant, Las Vegas, if the other person is into it, (persudant to #4) then have at it, take pictures and for the love of Mike wear a Condom. It's a piece of rubber. If I didn't want it to feel good when you did it I would have added spikes or something.

 

Any questions?

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+FloatingFatMan    13,164

 

Yes, and you'd find similar issues when you compare Sunni's vs Shia's.  America's not unique in this aspect, it's everywhere and has little to do with nationality.

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compl3x    6,252

Yes, and you'd find similar issues when you compare Sunni's vs Shia's.  America's not unique in this aspect, it's everywhere and has little to do with nationality.

 

 

It's also worth noting that the West actually attempts to tackle discrimination, something the rest of the world overwhelmingly fails to do. I wish in the West we could say we live in a Golden Era where nobody suffers discrimination, but that is entirely unrealistic.

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mudslag    4,395

 

 

 

LOL, look at the world you live in. Even today there is war and infighting in so many countries between the people of those countries and one of the most common denominators for that violence is religion. This is nothing different then any other time or place on this planet. If you think that link you provided means anything special, then you're looking for special in the wrong place.

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compl3x    6,252
Religion for $1,000, Alex
 
WITH Easter and Passover freshly behind us, let?s test your knowledge of the Bible. How many mistakes can you find:
 
Noah of Arc and his wife, Joan, build a boat to survive a great flood. Moses climbs Mount Cyanide and receives 10 enumerated commandments; for all the differences among religious denominations, the Ten Commandments are a common bedrock that Jews, Catholics and Protestants agree on.
 
Sodom and his wild girlfriend, Gomorrah, soon set the standard for what not to do. They are turned to pillars of salt.
 
The Virgin Mary, a young Christian woman, conceives Jesus immaculately and gives birth to him in a Jerusalem manger. Jesus, backed by the Twelve Apostles and their wives, the Epistles, proclaims what we call the Golden Rule: ?Do one to others before they do one to you.? The Romans repeatedly crucify Jesus ? at Cavalry, Golgotha and other sites ? but he resurrects himself each time.
 
Christianity spreads through the gospels, which differ on details but all provide eyewitness accounts of Jesus?s life from birth to death. Finally, Rome tires of throwing Christians to lions and becomes the first country to adopt Christianity as its religion. The Bible is translated from the original English into countless languages.
 
So how many errors did you spot? There are about 20 mistakes, which I?ve listed at the end of this column, and they reflect the general muddling in our society about religious knowledge.
 
Secular Americans are largely ignorant about religion, but, in surveys, religious Americans turn out to be scarcely more knowledgeable.
 
?Americans are both deeply religious and profoundly ignorant about religion,? Stephen Prothero noted in his book, ?Religious Literacy.? ?Atheists may be as rare in America as Jesus-loving politicians are in Europe, but here faith is almost entirely devoid of content. One of the most religious countries on earth is also a nation of religious illiterates.?
 
Nearly two-thirds of Americans say they believe that the Bible holds the answer to all or most of life?s basic questions. Yet only one-third know that Jesus delivered the Sermon on the Mount, and 10 percent think that Joan of Arc was Noah?s wife.
 
Many Americans know even less about other faiths, from Islam to Hinduism. Several days after 9/11, a vigilante shot and killed an Indian-American Sikh because of the assumption that a turban must mean a Muslim: Ignorance and murderous bigotry joined in one.
 
All this goes to the larger question of the relevance of the humanities. Literature, philosophy and the arts have come to be seen as effete and irrelevant, but if we want to understand the world around us and think deeply about it, it helps to have exposure to Shakespeare and Kant, Mozart and Confucius ? and, yes, Jesus, Moses and the Prophet Muhammad.
 
Secularists sometimes believe religious knowledge doesn?t matter because the world is leaving faith behind. Really? Faith is elemental in much of the world, including large swaths of America.
 
How can one understand Afghanistan without some knowledge of Islam? For that matter, how can one understand America without any intellectual curiosity about Evangelicals? Can one understand the world if one is oblivious to the stunning rise of Pentecostals at home and abroad?
 
Every high school and college graduate in America should, I think, have some familiarity with statistics, economics and a foreign language such as Spanish. Religion may not be as indispensable, but the humanities should be a part of our repertory. They may not enrich our wallets, but they do enrich our lives. They civilize us. They provide context.
 
And we don?t want to emulate the long-ago Texas governor who, in one of those stories that may be too good to be true, opposed Spanish instruction because: ?If English was good enough for Jesus Christ, it?s good enough for us.?

 

 

Answers:

 

Errors in the Bible story above: Joan wasn?t Noah?s wife (and Arc wasn?t his name); Moses climbed Mount Sinai, not Cyanide; there were 12 (unnumbered) commandments, and Jews, Protestants and Catholics have different versions depending in part on how they compress them into 10; Sodom wasn?t a person; same for Gomorrah; they weren?t the ones turned into salt; the Virgin Mary was Jewish; the immaculate conception is a Catholic doctrine referring to the conception of Mary; Jesus was said to be born in Bethlehem; epistles are letters; the Golden Rule governs what you do ?unto others?; Jesus was crucified once; it?s Calvary, not Cavalry, and it?s the same place as Golgotha; Jesus is said to have been resurrected once; although we don?t know much about the gospel writers, they presumably weren?t eyewitnesses but incorporated eyewitness sources; the Gospels of Mark and John do not refer to the birth of Jesus; Armenia was first to adopt Christianity as state religion; the Bible is translated from Hebrew and Greek, not English.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/27/opinion/sunday/kristof-religion-for-1000-alex.html?rref=opinion&module=Ribbon&version=context&region=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Opinion&pgtype=Blogs

 

So, how religiously literate (or illiterate) are you?

 

I think his argument that secularists are ignorant about religion is bogus. None-religious people have scored higher in surveys than their religious counterparts. It's also nonsense to argue that secularists think religious literacy is pointless because "the world is leaving faith behind". Being a secularist has nothing to do with that.

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compl3x    6,252
World?s first Anti Shia Alliance convention results in calls for violence and sectarian purging

WASHINGTON, April 25, 2014 ? Last week, the world?s first ever ?Anti Shia Alliance? convention was held in Jakarta, the capital city of Indonesia. The event was attended by thousands of participants, who called for ?jihad? against Shia Muslims. Several government officials were in attendance. During the conference, a Shiite journalist who was covering the program for Ahlulbait Indonesia, reported being detained, interrogated, and beaten by group organizers and attendees.
 
The alliance is a coalition of various groups who all maintain an anti-Shia agenda, including the Anti-Heresy Front, led by Ahmad bin Zein al-Kaff.
 
The convention resulted in an ?Anti Shia Declaration? which reads as follows:
 
The anti-Shia declaration
 
The alliance is a preaching forum to promote virtues and prevent abominable acts. 
The alliance will take any necessary measures to maximize the prevention of the proliferation of heretical teachings by Shia followers. 
The alliance will forge good relations with other preaching organizations. 
The alliance will demand that the government immediately ban Shia and revoke all licenses for foundations, organizations and institutions owned by Shiites.
In a speech, bin Zein al-Kaff said ?It?s time that we declared jihad against them?We should not tolerate them anymore.?
 
Another part of the alliance, the Islamic Defenders Front (FPI) had its members attend wearing black ski masks and camouflage clothing, with shirts that said ?Heresy Hunters.?
 
The Jakarta Globe quotes the group?s leader, Tardjono Abu Muas, as saying ?We all have to understand that Shia has tainted the true Islamic teaching? Our government should be like the Malaysian government.? The Malaysian government has increasingly banned the practice of Shia Islam within their country, and has been criticized by Human Rights Watch for human rights violations against the Shiite minority.
 
Another leader in the organization, Athian Ali said that more than 100 Muslim clerics attended the event.
 
 

 

 

The comments on that site are priceless.

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chrisj1968    1,415

my Youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/user/TRGApostle/feed?view_as=public

 

I finished taking 2 classes, Ot and NT surveys. i know I'm better equipped to answer questions that people have in the arena of the Christian faith. I'm not here to push anything on anyone or be harassing. this is simply a post to inform others that I'm equipped to create and teach ministry and deal with issues of doctrine of both testaments of the bible.

 

If you do NOT believe, that's fine, I'm not here to push anyone in this area. you can keep up with my videos at the above link and keep that link to keep up with new videos. I'm not into a huge production but the meat of the word.

 

I hope I can do something meaningful for others and bring hope, peace and happiness to ANYONE who needs a word of kindness and hope.

 

I wish you all a great day and joyous lives.

 

~Chrisj1968

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Ian S.    758

Congratulations for finishing a semester!

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+Andre S.    1,891

That's cool. What would you suggest as an up-to-date, accurate yet pleasant to read English translation?

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+T3X4S    4,328

Chris, that sounds like a great, healthy outlook on life.  Its admirable to simply want to ease people in trouble, and bring wisdom and compassion.  For that sir, I honor you.

I am an atheist, yet I think a great quote is from Bill Maher's Religulous - "Thank you for being christ-like and not just christian"



If your desire is honorable, I wish you success. 

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