Paris attacks: More than 120 killed at Bataclan and restaurants

[game_over]

Why are all the resident Muslims all on the defensive? This isn't about you, this about this atrocity. In the end, JUST like ISIS can't speak for you, you also CANT speak for ISIS. Works both ways. For you to say they are NOT Muslim is the VERY same thing as them claiming YOU are not. Quit defending Islam and accept that it can be what ever you want. In the end, this happened because THEY BELIEVE in their version of ISLAM. Would have this happened had it NOT been for ISLAM? No. 

Remove the religion - remove the excuse.

As long as people believe in alleged deities that tell others "follow my ways and you will be rewarded", this crap will continue.

Finally some sense! I'm sick of people (not just 'peaceful' Muslims) saying that ISIS are not Muslim... Religion is not based on many, if any, facts at all.. therefore it is massively open to interpretation and different groups will obviously interpret it in their own way, more than likely pushing it in the direction of the cause they want to preach... If I convert to Islam and then kill someone in the name of my god, prophet or whatever, it does not make me any less of a Muslim.

[seta-san]

 

Finally some sense! I'm sick of people (not just 'peaceful' Muslims) saying that ISIS are not Muslim... Religion is not based on many, if any, facts at all.. therefore it is massively open to interpretation and different groups will obviously interpret it in their own way, more than likely pushing it in the direction of the cause they want to preach... If I convert to Islam and then kill someone in the name of my god, prophet or whatever, it does not make me any less of a Muslim.

yeah, when all the 'moderate' muslims start getting defensive it makes me start wondering exactly why. Like maybe they might have some pernicious beliefs that would meld in better with the terrorists than with a Western Democracy.

[Skiver Veteran]

 

Or maybe it's because a group of monsters are committing these acts and claiming it to be in the same belief as their own. I think I'd be defensive of my own beliefs and claim that these monsters are NOT acting in the same belief as my own and not in the name of my chosen religion. 

Lets not over analyse this and label a majority with a minorities view point here.

[Yazoo]

That's a very interesting post, I would like to "like" this but this new forum system doesn't love me at all.

About moderates, what I have not seen in the past and now, or at least I don't recall seeing them, is scores of muslims living and prospering in the West protesting after 9/11, after Madrid, after London and after Paris, or if they did then I must have missed it. I don't personally believe in public demonstrations, marches and torchlight processions at all but, according to statistics, there are 2.1 millions self-declared muslims in France, 2.7 millions in the UK, 1.85 millions in Spain, 820,000 in Italy, 1.5 millions in Germany and 44 millions in Europe - not just the EU -, so my question is: where are they? Where were they? Why aren't they speaking up, except for a few scholars here and there?

You might want to look a little wider, plenty of muslims have been condemning the attacks

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=muslims+around+the+world+condemn+terrorism+after+the+paris+attackes&oq=muslims+around+the+world+condemn+terr%3Dorism+after+the+paris+attackes&aqs=chrome..69i57.18239j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8#q=muslims+around+the+world+condemn+terrorism+after+the+paris+attacks

 

[ranasrule]

 

When they fire on Israel, or support those who fire on Israel, they might as well be bombing themselves.

 

So by that logic then the people who were killed in France had it coming as some of them might have voted for the current government that's carrying out the bombings in Syria ?

Edited November 16, 2015 by ranasrule

[Gabe84]

You might want to look a little wider, plenty of muslims have been condemning the attacks

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=muslims+around+the+world+condemn+terrorism+after+the+paris+attackes&oq=muslims+around+the+world+condemn+terr%3Dorism+after+the+paris+attackes&aqs=chrome..69i57.18239j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8#q=muslims+around+the+world+condemn+terrorism+after+the+paris+attacks

 

Actually, that's exactly what I was talking about. Scholars, leaders and someone on Twitter. But I've yet to see a reaction from the millions muslims who live in Europe.

This situation is going to affect their lives, their liberties and the perception we have of them, right or wrong, this is what's going to happen, I know this for a fact because until a few years ago we italians were considered a bunch of gross thugs all affiliated with the mafia; when you're a minority you should do your best to integrate into your new society, it's not an effortless process, among your efforts there are also accepting a new culture, assimilating it and not imposing your own, as well as helping the country you're in get rid of the bad apples you and your compatriots might have brought.

They should be the ones taking it to the streets of Europe and protesting against this minority. I personally believe that the vast majority of muslims doesn't support these acts, the same as christians do not actively enforce old testament rules, but they have to show this support in my opinion, not because I want their compassion, but because it's going to help their cause and help their children's future, and they should help identifying, isolating and reporting extremists.

It really reminds what we were having in the 70s and 80s with political terrorism here and in the 90s with mafia in Sicily, and nowadays with mafia in Calabria and Campania. The criminals - terrorists of mafiosi - were common folks, they were, and they are, our neighbors, they were living normal lives, yet no one knew them, they were all surprised when someone got caught, someone even defended, and still defends, them. It's called omertà, which is the code of silence used by the mafia, and connivance, because I refuse to believe no one knew political extremists or mafiosi here, the same way I refuse to believe no one in muslim communities know about their extremists.

[Yazoo]

edited, I miss read

[Draconian Guppy]

 

When they fire on Israel, or support those who fire on Israel, they might as well be bombing themselves.

 

And that's pretty much Islam in a nutshell. All the really bad and crazy stuff from the Old Testament rolled into one big fat ball of hate.

There's something I don't quite get. I'm not well versed in religions, so I don't know how the Islam "works". But like you point out, the christian bible does have all that crazy jingle on killing others if you're not the same religion, beat your wife, etc. Yet you don't see Christians gunning down people in the name of their savior jesus christ (well there is, but the islam number is vastly superior) (and yeah there are also extremists like opuds dei).  Is there something I'm not getting? Or is the islam just badly interpreted to their convenience to justify their actions?

Or is the islam really that draconian?

[PGHammer]

Actually, that's exactly what I was talking about. Scholars, leaders and someone on Twitter. But I've yet to see a reaction from the millions muslims who live in Europe.

This situation is going to affect their lives, their liberties and the perception we have of them, right or wrong, this is what's going to happen, I know this for a fact because until a few years ago we italians were considered a bunch of gross thugs all affiliated with the mafia; when you're a minority you should do your best to integrate into your new society, it's not an effortless process, among your efforts there are also accepting a new culture, assimilating it and not imposing your own, as well as helping the country you're in get rid of the bad apples you and your compatriots might have brought.

They should be the ones taking it to the streets of Europe and protesting against this minority. I personally believe that the vast majority of muslims doesn't support these acts, the same as christians do not actively enforce old testament rules, but they have to show this support in my opinion, not because I want their compassion, but because it's going to help their cause and help their children's future, and they should help identifying, isolating and reporting extremists.

It really reminds what we were having in the 70s and 80s with political terrorism here and in the 90s with mafia in Sicily, and nowadays with mafia in Calabria and Campania. The criminals - terrorists of mafiosi - were common folks, they were, and they are, our neighbors, they were living normal lives, yet no one knew them, they were all surprised when someone got caught, someone even defended, and still defends, them. It's called omertà, which is the code of silence used by the mafia, and connivance, because I refuse to believe no one knew political extremists or mafiosi here, the same way I refuse to believe no one in muslim communities know about their extremists.

Actually, the real reason why the vast majority of Muslims are NOT speaking up is outright fear - they are afraid of being made an example of.  The extremist sorts are proving horrifically capable of finding places where condemnation of their sort exists and causing carnage there - Charlie Hebdo, for example - most folks don't want to be blown up.  It is far easier to cower in fear than to take active measures against those that countenance - let alone commit - such acts of carnage - regardless of WHY they do.

[Gabe84]

Actually, the real reason why the vast majority of Muslims are NOT speaking up is outright fear - they are afraid of being made an example of.  The extremist sorts are proving horrifically capable of finding places where condemnation of their sort exists and causing carnage there - Charlie Hebdo, for example - most folks don't want to be blown up.  It is far easier to cower in fear than to take active measures against those that countenance - let alone commit - such acts of carnage - regardless of WHY they do.

I know, terrorist organizations operate the same way the mafia does, by violent intimidation, and they're as secretive as the mafia. That's why I'm saying this. Yes, investigation and intelligence work are important, but we will never be able to defeat them unless someone from the inside, someone who's involved, or who is close to these organizations, starts cooperating.

That's how we were able to defeat our own political terrorists and to weaken the mafia, or at least their most violent factions, via a mix of investigative work and cooperation by those who had ties with them.

An by "having ties" I don't mean only former terrorists or mafiosi, but also people, in the case of the mafia, who lived in the same area and, in the case of terrorists, people who are part of their communities.

[Emn1ty]

 

Or maybe it's because a group of monsters are committing these acts and claiming it to be in the same belief as their own. I think I'd be defensive of my own beliefs and claim that these monsters are NOT acting in the same belief as my own and not in the name of my chosen religion. 

Lets not over analyse this and label a majority with a minorities view point here.

Based on what I know of the situation, ISIS believes they are enacting out the end days in the Quran. That they are cleansing the globe of infidels to usher in a new era of peace. So by that very notion they are indeed quite Islamic. There may be many interpretations, but the Quran is very literal. There is little room for interpretation, but a lot of room for choosing which parts of it to enforce and not. ISIS is doing what they believe they were meant to do. This isn't an excuse for their acts, but this also doesn't mean they aren't of Islam.

As far as the majority and minority. The majority does not matter and are irrelevant when the minority are in power and making the decisions. It doesn't matter if most of them are peaceful when those in control of their military power and foreign policy are not. Russia is mostly peaceful people, doesn't change that their leaders are doing treacherous things. It doesn't matter that most Christians during the Crusades were peaceful when most of the ruling bodies were out conquering the Promised Land and stealing it from the locals. The people who matter are the people in power. So saying that "well most muslims are peaceful" isn't really a valid argument when the extreme muslims are calling the shots.

[ctebah]

People should listen to Ron Paul on this one:

 

http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives...hould-be-done/

 

 

The horrific attacks in Paris on Friday have, predictably, led to much over-reaction and demands that we do more of the exact things that radicalize people and make them want to attack us. The French military wasted no time bombing Syria in retaliation for the attacks, though it is not known where exactly the attackers were from. Thousands of ISIS fighters in Syria are not Syrian, but came to Syria to overthrow the Assad government from a number of foreign countries -- including from France and the US. 

Ironically, the overthrow of Assad has also been the goal of both the US and France since at least 2011.

Because the US and its allies are essentially on the same side as ISIS and other groups – seeking the overthrow of Assad – many of the weapons they have sent to the more “moderate” factions also seeking Assad’s ouster have ended up in the hands of radicals. Moderate groups have joined more radical factions over and over, taking their US-provided training and weapons with them. Other moderate groups have been captured or killed, their US-provided weapons also going to the radicals. Thus the more radical factions have become better equipped and better trained, while occasionally being attacked by US or allied planes. 

Does anyone not believe this is a recipe for the kind of disaster we have now seen in Paris? The French in particular have been very active in arming even the more radical groups in Syria, as they push for more political influence in the region. Why do they still refuse to believe in the concept of blowback? Is it because the explanation that, “they hate us because we are free,” makes it easier to escalate abroad and crack down at home?

It may not be popular to say this as emotions run high and calls ring out for more bombing in the Middle East, but there is another way to address the problem. There is an alternative to using more military intervention to address a problem that was caused by military intervention in the first place. 

That solution is to reject the militarists and isolationists. It is to finally reject the policy of using “regime change” to further perceived US and western foreign policy goals, whether in Iraq, Libya, Syria, or elsewhere. It is to reject the foolish idea that we can ship hundreds of millions of dollars worth of weapons to “moderates” in the Middle East and expect none of them to fall into the hands of radicals. 

More bombs will not solve the problems in the Middle East. But a more promising approach to the Middle East is currently under fire from the isolationists in Washington. The nuclear deal with Iran ends UN sanctions and opens that country to international trade. Just last week the presidents of France and Iran met to discuss a number of trade deals. Other countries have followed. Trade and respect for national sovereignty trumps violence, but Washington still doesn’t seem to get it. Most presidential candidates compete to thump the table loudest against any deal with Iran. They will use this attack to propagandize against approving trade with Iran even though Iran has condemned the attack and is also in the crosshairs of ISIS.

Here is the alternative: Focus on trade and friendly relations, stop shipping weapons, abandon “regime change” and other manipulations, respect national sovereignty, and maintain a strong defense at home including protecting the borders from those who may seek to do us harm.

We should abandon the failed policies of the past, before it’s too late.

[Memphis]

People should listen to Ron Paul on this one:

 

 

I hink I can both agree with Ron Paul and yyetagree that no matter how this happened, ISIS needs to be stamped out of existence by any means necessary.

[Mockingbird]

Just out of curiosity, how many % of terrorisms in Europe is caused by Muslim terrorists.

I ask this because I haven't heard of a lot of Christian terrorists, nor Hindu terrorists, atheist terrorists, etc.

Maybe, it the terrorists aren't Muslim, then they are just "terrorists".

[FiB3R]

Just out of curiosity, how many % of terrorisms in Europe is caused by Muslim terrorists.

I ask this because I haven't heard of a lot of Christian terrorists, nor Hindu terrorists, atheist terrorists, etc.

Setting fire to speed cameras in the UK is classed as terrorism, so... ###### knows.

[ctebah]

Just out of curiosity, how many % of terrorisms in Europe is caused by Muslim terrorists.

I ask this because I haven't heard of a lot of Christian terrorists, nor Hindu terrorists, atheist terrorists, etc.

Maybe, it the terrorists aren't Muslim, then they are just "terrorists".

Around 2% are Muslim related.  This is the most recent article I could find:

 

http://thinkprogress.org/world/2015/01/08/3609796/islamist-terrorism-europe/

[Mockingbird]

 

Around 2% are Muslim related.  This is the most recent article I could find:

 

http://thinkprogress.org/world/2015/01/08/3609796/islamist-terrorism-europe/

More reliable source: http://metro.co.uk/2015/01/15/the-number-of-terrorists-who-are-actually-religiously-motivated-will-surprise-you-5023616/

[Mockingbird]

You have to wonder, if these people are Islam tourists, then by the same standard, would people like Anders Behring Breivik be consider  "Christian terrorists".

[th3rEsa]

Do you really care about the deads? Do you really have mercy and sorrow for the grief of the Parisians?

If so, why don't you care about the bombs and terrorist attacks in Beirut, happening just as you speak? Is it too far away from you?

If so, how many kilometers from you does that need to happen to make you not care about it?

Hypocrites.

[ctebah]

Do you really care about the deads? Do you really have mercy and sorrow for the grief of the Parisians?

If so, why don't you care about the bombs and terrorist attacks in Beirut, happening just as you speak? Is it too far away from you?

If so, how many kilometers from you does that need to happen to make you not care about it?

Hypocrites.

 

Because this thread is about Paris and not about Beirut.  People care and that's all that matters, it doesn't make them hypocrites.   

[Mockingbird]

Do you really care about the deads? Do you really have mercy and sorrow for the grief of the Parisians?

If so, why don't you care about the bombs and terrorist attacks in Beirut, happening just as you speak? Is it too far away from you?

If so, how many kilometers from you does that need to happen to make you not care about it?

Hypocrites.

France is rich. Lebanon is poor. That's why.

Next question.

[th3rEsa]

Because this thread is about Paris and not about Beirut.

 

Precisely.

Hypocrites. None of you has mercy with humans at all, you only have mercy with people from a country just because you can guess where this country actually is.

(edit: sorry for the rage; here's the more SFW wording:) That makes me feel sick. And it fills me with a great sadness. Is this what you want to show the world?

Edited November 16, 2015 by th3rEsa
typo

[Mockingbird]

Precisely.

Hypocrites. None of you has mercy with humans at all, you only have mercy with people from a country just because you can guess where this country actually is.

(edit: sorry for the rage; here's the more SFW wording:) That makes me feel sick. And it fills me with a great sadness. Is this what you want to show the world?

Such is life.

If some rich person is murdered, it's all over the news.

If some poor person is murdered, nobody cares.

[malenfant]

It isn't unreasonable to side with your own religio-political heritage is it? Well unless you're  running from said heritage into the arms of your benefactors. Then it is.

[ctebah]

 

Precisely.

Hypocrites. None of you has mercy with humans at all, you only have mercy with people from a country just because you can guess where this country actually is.

(edit: sorry for the rage; here's the more SFW wording:) That makes me feel sick. And it fills me with a great sadness. Is this what you want to show the world?

Beirut bombing was all over the news.  Every major news outlet reported on it.  But people will always choose what to spread over Facebook and which news reports to share.  And you can't blame them for it just like you can't blame people for caring about their friends or family more than strangers.