theyarecomingforyou Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 4 hours ago, Santiago Matamoros said: You mean like in France? And California's got the strictest gun control laws in the United States. France, which doesn't have particularly strict firearms restrictions, still has a firearms fatality rate that's 75% lower than that of the United States. The UK, Germany, Spain and Italy all have much stricter laws and lower firearms fatality rates. As for California, it might have strict gun laws by US standards but by international standards they're incredibly weak - it doesn't require owners to have a licence and attempts to close firearms loop holes have been thwarted on numerous occasions. It's all very well having an expensive lock on your front door but if you leave the window open it isn't going to do much good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocM Posted December 15, 2015 Author Share Posted December 15, 2015 (edited) 1 hour ago, theyarecomingforyou said: Even if we accept your argument, is it not a reasonable solution if it can curb the tens of thousands of deaths each year from firearms? > No, because "tens of thousands" would have to include suicides, which make up 65%+ of the total gun deaths, and they're self inflited. What safety feature do you propose to prevent them, realtime face recognizing 3D image processing?? Of the remainder only a miniscule number are accidental (<1%) or result from a firearm being taken away. Even the assumed number of gun deaths from stolen arms is vastly overstated. The much higher costs per firearm would very likely shut lower income people out of self defense options, and they're the ones who probably need them the most. Now they can get an effective 9mm or .40 for $200 (HiPoint) to $450 (SIG Sauer.) With this tech, it's almost $2,000 for a .22. Try stoppin a cranked up 300 pound hood with that. This is another example of the perfect being the enemy of the good enough. DConnell 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloatingFatMan Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 On 15/12/2015, 15:44:14, DocM said: No, because "tens of thousands" would have to include suicides, which make up 65%+ of the total gun deaths, and they're self inflited. What safety feature do you propose to prevent them, realtime face recognizing 3D image processing?? Of the remainder only a miniscule number are accidental (<1%) or result from a firearm being taken away. Even the assumed number of gun deaths from stolen arms is vastly overstated. The much higher costs per firearm would very likely shut lower income people out of self defense options, and they're the ones who probably need them the most. Now they can get an effective 9mm or .40 for $200 (HiPoint) to $450 (SIG Sauer.) With this tech, it's almost $2,000 for a .22. Try stoppin a cranked up 300 pound hood with that. This is another example of the perfect being the enemy of the good enough. So your solution is to do nothing? That's not a workable solution either. SOMEthing needs to be done, and if smart weapons are made mandatory, they WILL improve, and WILL get cheaper. One option IMO, is to place a hold on further manufacturing of regular weapons, but still allow those already made to be sold. This will mean a gradual phase out of one type, and a phase in of the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocM Posted December 17, 2015 Author Share Posted December 17, 2015 3 hours ago, FloatingFatMan said: So your solution is to do nothing? That's not a workable solution either. SOMEthing needs to be done, and if smart weapons are made mandatory, they WILL improve, and WILL get cheaper. One option IMO, is to place a hold on further manufacturing of regular weapons, but still allow those already made to be sold. This will mean a gradual phase out of one type, and a phase in of the other. 300 million dumb firearms to convert, if possible (it isn't for the vast majority), is another unreasonable burden - a high expense to the low incomes and a logistical nightmare. Federally mandated trigger locks we banned in DC v Heller as they unreasonably delay deployment in an active crisis (is the smart system covered as a trigger lock?) which could also cost lives. One possibility is to grandfather in old arms and have new weapons be smart, but that doesn't really change things much does it? It'd take a century to get to 50%. There's again the cost for low incomes - unless poor people get a gun subsidy. Hmmmmm. Can of worms. How about we tackle the real problem: fix the psychiatric reporting issues to the background check systems, and start early screening for the psycopathologies which account for most mass killings? Also crack down on border issues (gang crossings), don't give criminal illegals amnesty (almost 100k a year, with disasterous results), crack down on gangs (a large percentage of street murders) etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloatingFatMan Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 2 hours ago, DocM said: One possibility is to grandfather in old arms and have new weapons be smart, but that doesn't really change things much does it? It'd take a century to get to 50%. There's again the cost for low incomes - unless poor people get a gun subsidy. Hmmmmm. Can of worms. There is no overnight solution. Any fix at all is going to take years to implement. The longer you wait though, the longer it will take. 2 hours ago, DocM said: How about we tackle the real problem: fix the psychiatric reporting issues to the background check systems, and start early screening for the psycopathologies which account for most mass killings? Also crack down on border issues (gang crossings), don't give criminal illegals amnesty (almost 100k a year, with disasterous results), crack down on gangs (a large percentage of street murders) etc. Why does the US have such a massively larger proportion of mentally ill people compared to the rest of the western world, I wonder? theyarecomingforyou 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocM Posted December 17, 2015 Author Share Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) 3 hours ago, FloatingFatMan said: Why does the US have such a massively larger proportion of mentally ill people compared to the rest of the western world, I wonder? The percentage of persons with serious issues is about the same. One HUGE problem is that in the 1970's there was a media driven backlash against inpatient mental institutions after One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest and treatment scandals at some NY institutions. Geraldo Rivera made his bones on that story. Naturally, after the civil libertarian propeller heads had their way the baby got thrown out with the bathwater and it became extremely difficult to commit even very ill people. Most of those in institutions were (and are) sent to halfway houses, which they walk away from, or are released into the public where they are a large part of the homeless problem. Psychologists etc. are even reluctant to report them to firearms and other regulators due to "privacy issues," and it's of course difficult to enforce them taking their meds. As such, they aren't flagged in the background check systems. This has been a major factor in most recent mass shootings; Virginia Tech, Colorado theater shooting, Rep. Gaby Giffords being shot, the list goes on. Many you only hear about in the mass shooting stats where 4 deaths are the cutoff. These are often familicides, they kill their families, and not always with guns. Knives, bludgeonings, whatever. Even without firearms, they can get drivers licenses and drive into crowds like at the South by Southwest event and many others which don't get international coverage. Whatever they can use. Its a huge mental problem that is largely unaddressed. Many policy makers and caregivers still think institutionalization and forcing folks into taking their meds is somehow "bad." Edited December 17, 2015 by DocM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloatingFatMan Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 45 minutes ago, DocM said: The percentage of persons with serious issues is about the same. Umm, no... it's really not... So the question remains... Why is the USA so broken? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerd Rage Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) 6 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said: Umm, no... it's really not... So the question remains... Why is the USA so broken? I wonder if all the over diagnosed children are inflating those numbers. Not saying it is, just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+JHBrown Subscriber¹ Posted December 17, 2015 Subscriber¹ Share Posted December 17, 2015 15 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said: Umm, no... it's really not... So the question remains... Why is the USA so broken? I'm sure our terrible diet, and rights taken away from parents, to actually parent, plays a factor. We no longer believe in tough love, we believe in timeout; go sit in that chair little Billy for 5 minutes. There are many reasons that make us a bunch of loonies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocM Posted December 17, 2015 Author Share Posted December 17, 2015 Partly because such lists are based on self reports by the nations listed, and as with homicide reports inconsistent in how mental illness is defined or diagnosed. This can lead to overreportong, especially in the US. http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/16/health/mental-illness-overdiagnosis/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techbeck Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 The friend, supplier of the weapons has FINALLY been arrested and FINALLY being charged in all of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocM Posted December 18, 2015 Author Share Posted December 18, 2015 6 minutes ago, techbeck said: The friend, supplier of the weapons has FINALLY been arrested and FINALLY being charged in all of this. About fracking time, and AIUI he confessed that they had a previous attack planned but chickened out. This SOB is in deep, really deep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techbeck Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Should have been arrested as soon as it was found out where the weapons came from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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