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Let’s Admit It: Manual Transmissions Need to Go

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+Mirumir    5,636
11 hours ago, Gary7 said:

My Acura can be driven either way. I always use the Automatic mode.

 

 

6 hours ago, tsupersonic said:

Wrong. BMW is one of the very few manufacturers that offers manuals on their lineup. The F10 M5 (current gen.) can be had with a manual as a no cost option. It comes standard with a DCT.

My car is equipped with a DSG, which is technically a dual-clutch manual robot.

 

However, if your car doesn't have a physical clutch than it doesn't have a manual transmission in the classical sense. That F10 M5 comes equipped with manual to U.S. market only.

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HawkMan    5,232
15 hours ago, Brandon said:

Not true at all. Most "traction control" systems just won't give power to wheels that are slipping. In some situations, it's counter productive (heavy snow) since you're slipping the entire time and *any* wheel movement is helpful to get you moving forward. I've had times where my car would refuse to go forward because the wheels were slipping on packed snow until I turned off TCS. TCS can be useful in some situations, but not all. Plus all modern manual cars have TCS, standard. 

 

no. no.... nononono. NO.

 

I know large parts of America don't get snow or get very little snow so they don't care about teaching people about driving on snow. that means you shouldn't talk with authority about driving on snow...  But no, if you'r "slipping" on snow, you're driving wrong. alternatively very right, but not for regular roads with other traffic, so that's beside the point. 

 

And no, speaking for a country that has snow like half the year, and where TCS is a big thing on new cars. it's pretty much never counter productive on snow.  most people today never learn to drive/start slow on ice and snow though and when they get stuck, their go to tactic is to ram the gas pedal down hard to get lose... and even people with low gears usually don't know that they do and that they should use them to get a slow start, failing that, on a manual you can gear up to second. on most automatics, you can usually lock it in 3rd which is a bit high, but can help you if you suck at slow starts, though with automatics it's usually not an issue anyway, since just letting go of the brake will give you a nice slow start that will get you giving out of any slippery or snow intersection where you tend to spin. 

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sc302    1,742
3 hours ago, HawkMan said:

no. no.... nononono. NO.

 

I know large parts of America don't get snow or get very little snow so they don't care about teaching people about driving on snow. that means you shouldn't talk with authority about driving on snow...  But no, if you'r "slipping" on snow, you're driving wrong. alternatively very right, but not for regular roads with other traffic, so that's beside the point. 

 

And no, speaking for a country that has snow like half the year, and where TCS is a big thing on new cars. it's pretty much never counter productive on snow.  most people today never learn to drive/start slow on ice and snow though and when they get stuck, their go to tactic is to ram the gas pedal down hard to get lose... and even people with low gears usually don't know that they do and that they should use them to get a slow start, failing that, on a manual you can gear up to second. on most automatics, you can usually lock it in 3rd which is a bit high, but can help you if you suck at slow starts, though with automatics it's usually not an issue anyway, since just letting go of the brake will give you a nice slow start that will get you giving out of any slippery or snow intersection where you tend to spin. 

so many people don't know how to drive in the snow here.  it is really astonishing.  FWIW, the only time that I have ever had to take off traction control is going up steep hills.  Wheels slipped so much that eventually the tcs pulled out all of the power to the wheels even after it dropped the trans down low...It was literally stuck with tcs on.  After rolling back down the hill, taking tcs off, I was able to get up the hill completely with fluttering the gas myself vs letting tcs do it.  This happened on 2 different hills consistently in the snow.   One time it was pure ice and no matter what I did, I wasn't going up it.   I have left many people with german cars, where they swear up and down that they were build for snowy german roads so they should be great in the winters here, at the bottom of the hill with them pacing around their cars and look at me at astonishment (raising their hands up in the air, could be giving me the single finger salute, can't really see their face) when i reach the top and keep going.

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ThisIsStockerHD    105

Out of the two (auto vs manual) I will always pick a manual.

 

I have noticed that here in the UK though, manuals are by far the more common type.

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Thomas the Tank Engine    420
1 minute ago, Stocks™ said:

I have noticed that here in the UK though, manuals are by far the more common type.

People in the UK obviously like holding long hard sticks in their hands....  :p

 

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ThisIsStockerHD    105
Just now, Thomas the Tank Engine said:

People in the UK obviously like holding long hard sticks in their hands....  :p

 

Oh yes, all day long! I can't live without a stick between my hands :laugh:

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+Mirumir    5,636
7 minutes ago, Stocks™ said:

Out of the two (auto vs manual) I will always pick a manual.

 

I have noticed that here in the UK though, manuals are by far the more common type.

Figures, an autobox can cost an additional 5-10% of the total car price (in the budget car segment).

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+Fahim S.    1,088
5 minutes ago, Mirumir said:

Figures, an autobox can cost an additional 5-10% of the total car price (in the budget car segment).

It's not because manuals are cheaper that they are more popular.  I've not read the whole thread, but in the UK you can learn either manual or auto.  If you pass your driving test in an auto, you can only drive an auto, whilst with a manual then you can drive either a manual or an automatic.

 

As a result, most people learn in a manual.  And then they go buy one, because it is what they are used to.

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Thomas the Tank Engine    420
1 minute ago, Fahim S. said:

It's not because Manuals are cheaper that they are more expensive.  I've not read the whole thread, but in the UK you can learn either manual or auto.  If you pass your driving test in an auto, you can only drive an auto, whilst with a manual then you can drive either a manual or an automatic.

 

As a result, most people learn in a manual.  And then they go buy one, because it is what they are used to.

I mentioned this earlier as well:

 

Here in Canada you can take lessons to drive in either transmission, but after getting your license you can drive either one as my country doesn't differentiate between the two.

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President Devil    286

No, but cars are moving towards a point where a manual transmission just doesn't work anymore.

All these hybrids coming out now would just be impossible to drive that way.

But for an enthusiast sports car, I'd much rather have a manual box or a manumatic.

Edited by President Devil

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+Gary7    7,380
6 hours ago, Mirumir said:

 

 

My car is equipped with a DSG, which is technically a dual-clutch manual robot.

 

However, if your car doesn't have a physical clutch than it doesn't have a manual transmission in the classical sense. That F10 M5 comes equipped with manual to U.S. market only.

So now you say you know more about my Acura than I do. I never said it had a clutch but it can be manually shifted with a very slight touch. It is a six speed trans. The post is below

 

 

 

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HawkMan    5,232
1 hour ago, sc302 said:

so many people don't know how to drive in the snow here.  it is really astonishing.  FWIW, the only time that I have ever had to take off traction control is going up steep hills.  Wheels slipped so much that eventually the tcs pulled out all of the power to the wheels even after it dropped the trans down low...It was literally stuck with tcs on.  After rolling back down the hill, taking tcs off, I was able to get up the hill completely with fluttering the gas myself vs letting tcs do it.  This happened on 2 different hills consistently in the snow.   One time it was pure ice and no matter what I did, I wasn't going up it.   I have left many people with german cars, where they swear up and down that they were build for snowy german roads so they should be great in the winters here, at the bottom of the hill with them pacing around their cars and look at me at astonishment (raising their hands up in the air, could be giving me the single finger salute, can't really see their face) when i reach the top and keep going.

Steel ice, or compressed snow hill starts are horrible no matter what you're driving. 

we have a really steep road here where I leave between two main roads, it's kind of  shortcut for not driving all the way around. the problem is that when you come up, you have to stop for any traffic that could be coming. driving teachers love to use it, and it's hard enough for practicing hill starts in summer. in winter... 

 

I'm lucky I had Hakka 7's on my Grand Voyager last time I had to stop there with really slippery ice and the steepest part before the edge. I think I barely got it inched up and over in low. now I remember to try to avoid driving that road in winter again for a while :)

 

And German cars tend to be terrible for snow and ice, they're built for performance, not winter performance, to much immediate torque and power. 

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+Mirumir    5,636
4 minutes ago, Gary7 said:

So now you say you know more about my Acura than I do. I never said it had a clutch but it can be manually shifted with a very slight touch. It is a six speed trans. The post is below

 

Nope, you gave me all the info I needed to know.

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HawkMan    5,232
26 minutes ago, Fahim S. said:

It's not because manuals are cheaper that they are more popular.  I've not read the whole thread, but in the UK you can learn either manual or auto.  If you pass your driving test in an auto, you can only drive an auto, whilst with a manual then you can drive either a manual or an automatic.

 

As a result, most people learn in a manual.  And then they go buy one, because it is what they are used to.

I switch between driving my Grand voyager, which is automatic and comfortable to drive (though I liked my Toyota Avensis to) and my parents Subaru Forester, especially since my Grand Voyager is a chrysler and thus permantently semi broken in some way ;p  and if I drive the Voyager for a long while and borrow the forester I'll sometimes stall the car at intersection before cursing or simply forget to gear up on long stretches. when drove long to and from work and switched between the Chrysler and Toyota I could drive the whole way home in 4th gear before I got hoe and realized that damn, I forgot I had another gear... it's worse when it's 3rd....

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daorbed9    85
21 hours ago, MightyJordan said:

With the rise of electric cars, you'll get your wish.

We are quite a ways from electric cars as the norm.  Currently they are horrible on the environment to make and replacing the batteries is becoming a nightmare for used cars.  There are very few shops that are certified.  Parts can vary wildly within the same year model because of parts shortages etc.  The resale value takes a huge hit when you have to spend $6500 to replace the batteries on a $15k car.

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Som    429

I'd take manual over automatic every-time, more control, but I like driving...  here is Ireland and most of Europe it's mostly manual.  I'm sure electric and hydrogen cars will change that in the future but I can't see Europe switching to manual for petrol or diesel cars...

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HawkMan    5,232
2 minutes ago, daorbed9 said:

We are quite a ways from electric cars as the norm.  Currently they are horrible on the environment to make and replacing the batteries is becoming a nightmare for used cars.  There are very few shops that are certified.  Parts can vary wildly within the same year model because of parts shortages etc.  The resale value takes a huge hit when you have to spend kr54,235.44 ($6500) to replace the batteries on a kr125.16 ($15)k car.

Not a lot of 15k cars, certainly not with that expensive batteries. and the batteries have very long warranties and last for a very long time anyway. even here in cold ass Norway where they spend quite a bit of energy heating as well. 

 

While production of electric cars isn't "green", no car production is. for regular cars you need to mine rare minerals for the catalyst among other things. and diesels are horrible not just for the environment in regards to C02, but you have the particle release as well which is a huge contributor to city smoke and low air quality in cities today.  The economy on an electric goes way in your favor over your ownership time anyway though since electricity is so much cheaper per mile than gas. Also in many countries the electricity comes from hydro or nuclear and is clean. but even if it's no clean electricity, it's cleaner than gas or diesel. 

 

Hopefully e'll soon have better battery technology, I believe the metal oxygen or whatever type is very close and is a good step forward compared to the lithium 

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daorbed9    85
15 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

Not a lot of 15k cars, certainly not with that expensive batteries. and the batteries have very long warranties and last for a very long time anyway. even here in cold ass Norway where they spend quite a bit of energy heating as well. 

 

While production of electric cars isn't "green", no car production is. for regular cars you need to mine rare minerals for the catalyst among other things. and diesels are horrible not just for the environment in regards to C02, but you have the particle release as well which is a huge contributor to city smoke and low air quality in cities today.  The economy on an electric goes way in your favor over your ownership time anyway though since electricity is so much cheaper per mile than gas. Also in many countries the electricity comes from hydro or nuclear and is clean. but even if it's no clean electricity, it's cleaner than gas or diesel. 

 

Hopefully e'll soon have better battery technology, I believe the metal oxygen or whatever type is very close and is a good step forward compared to the lithium 

I didn't compare them to current fuel based cars for a reason.  They failed to improve on the main reason they were created.  Now we have fragmentation with a small percentage of cars.  They will be worthless in 10 years because they won't be worth fixing based on lack of parts and expensive repair.  What will the environment cost be then?  The batteries do not last that long.  Actually heat is much worse for batteries and it gets very hot here during the summer.  The batteries are only going to last 5-7 years in that environment.  The miles are going to hurt more than the years.  It only takes 100-150k miles to wear out batteries.  And since these are commuter cars they will be cycled very often.

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sc302    1,742
7 minutes ago, daorbed9 said:

I didn't compare them to current fuel based cars for a reason.  They failed to improve on the main reason they were created.  Now we have fragmentation with a small percentage of cars.  They will be worthless in 10 years because they won't be worth fixing based on lack of parts and expensive repair.  What will the environment cost be then?  The batteries do not last that long.  Actually heat is much worse for batteries and it gets very hot here during the summer.  The batteries are only going to last 5-7 years in that environment.  The miles are going to hurt more than the years.  It only takes 100-150k miles to wear out batteries.  And since these are commuter cars they will be cycled very often.

It isn't too common to have a car much above 200k miles, a lot of things tend to go other than batteries.  Electric Motors don't last forever either, shocks/struts/bushings, etc.

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The Evil Overlord    18,442
16 hours ago, Thomas the Tank Engine said:

People in the UK obviously like holding long hard sticks in their hands....  :p

 

As you're Canadian, I demand an apology for this statement :p 

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The Evil Overlord    18,442
15 hours ago, HawkMan said:

Not a lot of 15k cars, certainly not with that expensive batteries. and the batteries have very long warranties and last for a very long time anyway. even here in cold ass Norway where they spend quite a bit of energy heating as well. 

 

While production of electric cars isn't "green", no car production is. for regular cars you need to mine rare minerals for the catalyst among other things. and diesels are horrible not just for the environment in regards to C02, but you have the particle release as well which is a huge contributor to city smoke and low air quality in cities today.  The economy on an electric goes way in your favor over your ownership time anyway though since electricity is so much cheaper per mile than gas. Also in many countries the electricity comes from hydro or nuclear and is clean. but even if it's no clean electricity, it's cleaner than gas or diesel. 

 

Hopefully e'll soon have better battery technology, I believe the metal oxygen or whatever type is very close and is a good step forward compared to the lithium 

Not to mention traffic calming measures like speed humps etc... A report was filed about these in the '90's about the impact these would have (pity I can't find it, as it made for interesting reading) basically said within that because drivers accelerate between these calming measures, pollution levels will increase

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The Evil Overlord    18,442
14 hours ago, sc302 said:

It isn't too common to have a car much above 200k miles, a lot of things tend to go other than batteries.  Electric Motors don't last forever either, shocks/struts/bushings, etc.

over repetitive charge cycles for every 100-200 miles, the batteries will wear long before shocks do

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The Evil Overlord    18,442
20 hours ago, HawkMan said:

no. no.... nononono. NO.

 

I know large parts of America don't get snow or get very little snow so they don't care about teaching people about driving on snow. that means you shouldn't talk with authority about driving on snow...  But no, if you'r "slipping" on snow, you're driving wrong. alternatively very right, but not for regular roads with other traffic, so that's beside the point. 

 

And no, speaking for a country that has snow like half the year, and where TCS is a big thing on new cars. it's pretty much never counter productive on snow.  most people today never learn to drive/start slow on ice and snow though and when they get stuck, their go to tactic is to ram the gas pedal down hard to get lose... and even people with low gears usually don't know that they do and that they should use them to get a slow start, failing that, on a manual you can gear up to second. on most automatics, you can usually lock it in 3rd which is a bit high, but can help you if you suck at slow starts, though with automatics it's usually not an issue anyway, since just letting go of the brake will give you a nice slow start that will get you giving out of any slippery or snow intersection where you tend to spin. 

I just wanted to add a little to this, a Mercedes auto (Yes, Manuals do exist, I used to have a Manual 300D) a strong force is required on the brake pedal as the car will try to drive when in drive, compared to most Vauxhalls (Opel) Ford or Jaguars, these cars tend to require much less force to keep the car stationary when in drive. In a snowed in condition, (as the example I gave earlier) A Jag on an incline, with tc and an auto trans, failed to set off, and I helped, I've seen Mercs have this problem too, they'll just spin out because an unsuspecting driver used too much brake force to try and stop the car, ABS can only do so much when dealing with an unskilled driver in the snow.

 

For the record I consider myself an unskilled, to beginner skilled driver in the snow as even I'm not above misjudging the road conditions and denting my own car out of my own stupidity.

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Gerowen    1,243

I prefer a manual transmission; more reliable (in my experience),  more fun to drive, and more direct control over how the vehicle operates.  Going down a hill you can manually down-shift to help with slowing down, which is especially helpful on long downgrades where you don't want to sit there and hold your brakes the whole time and get them hot.  If you're trying to take off fast or going up a hill you can keep it in a lower gear longer for that extra torque.  To me the only time I sort of prefer an automatic is when you're in heavy stop and go traffic, but I avoid that by living in a place where the nearest town only has about 1,500 people, :p

 

I plan on keeping my old pickup truck alive as long as possible because it's very "analog" if that is a term that can apply to cars.  It's a 1999 model, 5 speed manual transmission, the gas pedal is operated by a steel cable, etc.  The only thing that's computerized is about it is the fuel injectors.  220,000 miles and it's still going strong with the factory engine and transmission.  My wife's car on the other hand, a 2006 Ford with about 180,000 miles on it and an automatic transmission, has started slipping here lately, so I may end up having to replace the transmission pretty soon, :-(

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adrynalyne    12,363
7 minutes ago, Gerowen said:

I prefer a manual transmission; more reliable (in my experience),  more fun to drive, and more direct control over how the vehicle operates.  Going down a hill you can manually down-shift to help with slowing down, which is especially helpful on long downgrades where you don't want to sit there and hold your brakes the whole time and get them hot.  If you're trying to take off fast or going up a hill you can keep it in a lower gear longer for that extra torque.  To me the only time I sort of prefer an automatic is when you're in heavy stop and go traffic, but I avoid that by living in a place where the nearest town only has about 1,500 people, :p

 

I plan on keeping my old pickup truck alive as long as possible because it's very "analog" if that is a term that can apply to cars.  It's a 1999 model, 5 speed manual transmission, the gas pedal is operated by a steel cable, etc.  The only thing that's computerized is about it is the fuel injectors.  220,000 miles and it's still going strong with the factory engine and transmission.  My wife's car on the other hand, a 2006 Ford with about 180,000 miles on it and an automatic transmission, has started slipping here lately, so I may end up having to replace the transmission pretty soon, :-(

I've heard two different sides about engine braking.  Yours, and the alternate view of, "its better to wear your brakes than much more expensive transmissions". The second one makes a lot of sense IMO.

 

I can downshift with my automatic whenever.  Even rev matches :)

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