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Let’s Admit It: Manual Transmissions Need to Go

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Brandon    297
53 minutes ago, Thayios said:

 

Although this topic has been beat to death among enthusiasts, so I usually stay out of them, I have to correct this:
 

Most automatics in modern vehicles are using engine braking in combination with a quick timing adjustment to enhance deceleration; the automatics that don't use engine braking were in the late 80's to early 90's. I, instinctively will flip my shifter to sport mode in a panic situation when decelerating because it automatically drops it from 6th to 4th and then I'll hammer it down gears (which is much faster than me clutching in, rev matching and downshifting) - but this habit comes from being a manual enthusiast back in the day. 

 

Also, the ECU/PCM in modern vehicles are MUCH more intelligent now than they used to be with the highway situation you mentioned. 

 

As far as 4 cylinder goes, you wouldn't catch me in one in the first place, but those will be quicker to accelerate (manuals) because they are econoboxes and the added drivetrain loss of the torque converter is there (coupled with it being a cheap car in the first place which means they usually don't optimize for race car status shifting, heh).

I guess I'm basing my experience off of my girlfriend's 2013 Civic EX, the last year with the 5-speed automatic before they switched to the CVT vs my 2013 Hyundai Elantra GT with a 6 speed manual. 

 

Both have similar HP and Torque powers, and I spent over 2000 miles last summer in the driver's seat of her car on a road trip. I do know that in her car I would have to often shift out of D into 3 or 2 for it to engine brake -- it wasn't automatic, and it was slow to downshift at highway speeds unless you floored it. Perhaps if there was a sport mode, it would be better.

 

I've driven a sporty automatic before (my mother has a BMW X3 with the turbo in it) and it can be a lot of fun to drive, and it was smart. But in the smaller 4-cyl N/A engines, I just feel that the manuals respond a lot better than any automatic does. 

 

Note: I haven't driven a 6 cyl car before, outside of a pickup truck. 

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sc302    1,740
4 hours ago, FloatingFatMan said:

 

 

And last time I checked, automatics are STILL less fuel efficient than manuals under ideal conditions. Obviously driver style can and will affect that.

Actually cvts are more fuel efficient than manuals, which is why you are seeing more and more cars going to cvt transmissions.  less friction and all.  This is comparing a manual transmission to a cvt on the same car, not jumping between cars and engines.  Traditional autos, yes they are less fuel efficient than manuals (depending on driving style).  

 

same car, same transmission, either better or the same as a manual:

http://www.thecarconnection.com/review/1089125_2015-subaru-wrx_green_7

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adrynalyne    12,315
11 minutes ago, sc302 said:

Actually cvts are more fuel efficient than manuals, which is why you are seeing more and more cars going to cvt transmissions.  less friction and all.  This is comparing a manual transmission to a cvt on the same car, not jumping between cars and engines.  Traditional autos, yes they are less fuel efficient than manuals (depending on driving style).  

 

same car, same transmission, either better or the same as a manual:

http://www.thecarconnection.com/review/1089125_2015-subaru-wrx_green_7

I guess it would depend on company, but it does not take cvt to be more fuel efficient than manual. 

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Crisp    3,271

Feminine thread award.

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adrynalyne    12,315
7 minutes ago, Crisp said:

Feminine thread award.

 Either you are claiming that only women drive autos or they cannot drive manual. 

 

 

Neither are are true of course. When it comes to high hp vehicles, the auto is the faster. Doesn't sound very feminine to me.  

 

 

I prefer manual and would drive it over auto if it suited my circumstances, but the whole machismo thing is played out and idiotic. 

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sc302    1,740
19 minutes ago, adrynalyne said:

I guess it would depend on company, but it does not take cvt to be more fuel efficient than manual. 

Like I said there is a reason that cvts are being used vs traditional autos...and it isnt because they have a history of being repair free.

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adrynalyne    12,315
30 minutes ago, sc302 said:

Like I said there is a reason that cvts are being used vs traditional autos...and it isnt because they have a history of being repair free.

You also said autos are less efficient than manual. That is not always true. cvt will be even more efficient but autos don't have to be cvt to be more efficient. 

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Crisp    3,271
30 minutes ago, adrynalyne said:

Neither are are true of course. When it comes to high hp vehicles, the auto is the faster. Doesn't sound very feminine to me.  

High horse power vehicles are faster in auto?

 

Ok then.

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adrynalyne    12,315
2 minutes ago, Crisp said:

High horse power vehicles are faster in auto?

 

Ok then.

Yes they are and it is a well known fact. Go google some info and see. For all your machismo, you cannot shift as fast as a computer. 

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Crisp    3,271
Just now, adrynalyne said:

Yes they are and it is a well known fact. Go google some info and see. 

Sorry I don't live in a country where straigh line speed or an oval is considered motorsport.

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adrynalyne    12,315
4 minutes ago, Crisp said:

Sorry I don't live in a country where straigh line speed or an oval is considered motorsport.

I said faster, don't switch goal posts to support your chest thumping.  I'm sure you think a GT-R is a woman's car too. 

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Crisp    3,271
12 minutes ago, adrynalyne said:

I said faster, don't switch goal posts to support your chest thumping.

Why keep editing your posts to try and back up your bs? Yes, I think the GT-R is overrated.

 

I'm done, your opinion is boring now. Besides I prefer a sequential gearbox anyway.

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adrynalyne    12,315
2 minutes ago, Crisp said:

Why keep editing your posts to try and back up your bs? Yes, I think the GT-R is overrated.

 

I'm done, your opinion is boring now. Besides I prefer a sequential gearbox anyway.

I edited it to be nicer, not to back anything up. The only BS I see here is someone thumping their chest. 

 

I don't care if you think a GTR is overrated, it proves my point that an auto can be used outside of drag racing and nascar. 

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tsupersonic    1,834
1 hour ago, Crisp said:

High horse power vehicles are faster in auto?

 

Ok then.

/facepalm. You and others in this thread prove that your knowledge in anything related to cars is pretty outdated. Thank god this is a "tech" forum... 

 

Yes, take a look at the fastest cars that are made today. What do they have in common? Hint: it involves an automatic transmission. ;) It's not all about straight line speed or quarter mile times. A good automatic transmission can shift way faster than any human can w/ a manual. Some of these said cars include the McLaren P1, Ferrari theFerrari (LaFerrari), Porsche 918, Bugatti Veyron, Henessey Venom. Hell even car enthusiasts had a heart attack when a track focused Porsche 911 991 GT3 RS came with PDK only.  

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sc302    1,740

A person will never ever be able to shift as fast or precisely as a purpose made/modified race ready automatic.  When a person can calculate faster than a computer or a calculator, let me know, until then an automatic will be faster than a person will ever be. 

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troysavary    2,288
5 hours ago, adrynalyne said:

I didn't say it shut off. The transmission keeps the engine running. Fuel is cut off. To say zero was extreme, but it uses almost none. It uses less than if it was in neutral. 

If fuel is cut off, engine stops. The more you try to sound like you know what you are talking about, the less you actually appear to. You would get a pretty severe engine breaking effect if the forward motion of the vehicle was what turned the engine during downhill coasting.

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troysavary    2,288
10 minutes ago, sc302 said:

A person will never ever be able to shift as fast or precisely as a purpose made/modified race ready automatic.  When a person can calculate faster than a computer or a calculator, let me know, until then an automatic will be faster than a person will ever be. 

Depends on which type of automatic. If it is the old school slush-box that shifts from hydraulic pressure in the gearbox, then, no, it is not faster than a skilled driver. If it is the new style automatic, which is basically a manual with a computer controlled clutch, then yes, it is faster.

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sc302    1,740
Just now, troysavary said:

Depends on which type of automatic. If it is the old school slush-box that shifts from hydraulic pressure in the gearbox, then, no, it is not faster than a skilled driver. If it is the new style automatic, which is basically a manual with a computer controlled clutch, then yes, it is faster.

Like I said, purpose made/modified race ready automatic...slush boxes are not purpose built or modified race ready, are they?

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troysavary    2,288
3 hours ago, sc302 said:

Actually cvts are more fuel efficient than manuals, which is why you are seeing more and more cars going to cvt transmissions.  less friction and all.  This is comparing a manual transmission to a cvt on the same car, not jumping between cars and engines.  Traditional autos, yes they are less fuel efficient than manuals (depending on driving style).  

 

same car, same transmission, either better or the same as a manual:

http://www.thecarconnection.com/review/1089125_2015-subaru-wrx_green_7

CVTs have a place, but they do not handle high torque well, are less durable, and are bad for towing. So they are fine in small commuter cars. I wouldn't trust one in a truck or sports car.

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adrynalyne    12,315
14 minutes ago, troysavary said:

If fuel is cut off, engine stops. The more you try to sound like you know what you are talking about, the less you actually appear to. You would get a pretty severe engine breaking effect if the forward motion of the vehicle was what turned the engine during downhill coasting.

Oh really?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a5977/coasting-in-neutral-fuel-economy/

http://mechanics.stackexchange.com/questions/816/can-coasting-in-neutral-damage-an-automatic-transmission

http://www.mercurynews.com/mr-roadshow/ci_25868854/roadshow-despite-dry-conditions-some-drivers-flip-cigarette

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/gas-pains-mileage-myths-and-misconceptions-when-coasting-to-a-stop-do-not-shift-into-neutral-page-3

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy-efficient_driving

 

 

Quote

Most modern petrol vehicles cut off the fuel supply completely when coasting (over-running) in gear, although the moving engine adds considerable frictional drag and speed is lost more quickly than with the engine declutched from the drivetrain.

 

 

Learn something.

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NightScreams    97

I've driven manual's since I started driving over 20 years ago. The problem neglected in OP is in regards to large trucks. granted some do have auto's available but they burn up. My company had a truck like that and we went through 5 or 6 transmissions. All of the rest of our trucks are manual....and thank the lord for that. Pulling a lot of weight on an automatic is just too hard on them, that's why most haulers are still manual.

Plus the great thing about owning a manual...car thieves can't drive them. Lol. One time, some black kids jumped in our work truck that was running and tried to steal it. I heard gears grind and saw them jumping out making a run for it....lol, stupid kids that can't drive.

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sc302    1,740
24 minutes ago, troysavary said:

CVTs have a place, but they do not handle high torque well, are less durable, and are bad for towing. So they are fine in small commuter cars. I wouldn't trust one in a truck or sports car.

never said they were good for towing or for a sports car...but many cars, even some low end sports cars (subaru wrx for example), are coming with them.  

 

cvt may be a pipe dream but if they can get the tq down and get the durability up, it could eventually be a bad assed transmission (no gears to shift, just slides up or down the cones as it needs more/less vs moving a planetary gear into place and having a slight pause between gear changes).   Just like computer controlled valves, if a tuner can control where the band stays at given load/throttle position it could be an unlimited resource (only limit would be the drive train combination). 

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adrynalyne    12,315
3 hours ago, troysavary said:

Depends on which type of automatic. If it is the old school slush-box that shifts from hydraulic pressure in the gearbox, then, no, it is not faster than a skilled driver. If it is the new style automatic, which is basically a manual with a computer controlled clutch, then yes, it is faster.

It doesn't take a dct to be faster than a manual shifter.  I'm not surprised you didn't know this, seeing how your knowledge is dated enough to not know about fuel cut off in cars when coasting. 

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tsupersonic    1,834
Just now, adrynalyne said:

It doesn't take a dct to be faster than a manual shifter.  I'm not surprised you didn't know this, seeing how your knowledge is dated enough to not know about fuel cut off in cars when coasting. 

Exactly! @troysavarytake a look at the ZF-8 speed automatic. It's not a DCT, but it shifts very quickly and is used in sporty cars (anything from the Alfa Romeo Giulia, to Aston Martins, to Bentley, BMW, Jaguar, Maserati, etc.)

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sc302    1,740

C4 transmissions are very popular in the racing community too.  

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