Pet Peeve with Mac OS?

[Southern Patriot]

it works, i have tried it. the characters are right, the coding just doesn't support them

for example i have the file: A??g??tis Byrjun

i hit A and tab and this shows up: A\314\201g\303\246tis\ Byrjun/

\XXX being how you can enter in any character i suppose.

Yeah, I finally tried it after I posted that. However, it still doesn't help much unless you can figure out what the heck the different numbers mean.

[Fuzzbling]

They are to damn expencive! :crazy:

I had an original Imac for a while, was a great comp, my only beef was the Orginal OS 10 was really buggy.

If there where more commercial games and PC ported software for the MAC I would use again. I also wish upgradable parts CPU, Mainboard, video, audio) where more avalible like for the PC. Yes I know there are a few options but no where near the level as PC's.

[the evn show]

If you don't believe that Apple is a software company ask yourself one question. Would you buy their hardware without their software on it? Which would you prefer, a G5 running Windows or a P4 running OS X?

The software exists to sell the hardware, just like iTMS exists to sell iPods, Mac OS, iLife, and all the other apple software is there to sell Apple hardware (except maybe shake). I wouldn't buy a p4 to run OS X because feature for feature i think the G5 powermac offers more.

And FYI, I bought my powerbook with the intention of tossing 10.2 in the garbage and installing Gentoo PPC.

  If OS X ran on x86 hardware I highly doubt this would be a problem.

So apple gets to foot the bill developing the OS (which doesn't generate a profit) and world + dog gets to run it on comoditity hardware which makes Apple $0.

How exactly is this not a problem?

And that's assuming you can find a way to get a similar experience on "standard open hardware".

  What I consider standard, open hardware are those that I can go down to a local shop and have the ability to choose from several manufacturers that produce to the same hardware standards.

I consider standard hardware to be anything that comes in blue dalmation or grape colors. That doesn't mean I'm right.

Furthermore - you're defining standards based on you and your geography. I guess that means that Armani, Versace, Diesel, Gucci, and Fendi are standard clothing, Porsche is the standard vehicle, and Chinese food is the standard meal because thats what's available at the "local stores" in my neighborhood. The closest computer store to my house is actually a macintosh dealer (aside from the big-box electronic stores I'd have to pass on the way there). Maybe it's a metric thing or...

We have standards bodies like the IEEE that say "this" is what a standard floating point processor must do, or "this" is how firewire behaves. As long as a given piece of hardware conforms to the standards set out by the standards bodies then it is by definetion standard hardware. The standards are open (though some must be licensed: like MP3).

You can't just invent definetions to suit your argument. Well you can, but it doesn't convince anybody that you're right.

[Dashel]

Well I'm not sure where you live but the U.S. accounts for over 60% of Apple's revenue where x86 hardware is freely available in a competitive marketplace.

I'm not trying to convice anyone. It is a personal pet peeve. ;)

Edited January 16, 2004 by Dashel

[rocks1985]

-not being able to close windows when they are minimized into the dock

-not being able to keep the mini-icon of a window in the dock while the window is actually out and being displayed. if the mini-icon of the window were to stay in the dock, then users could minimize and maximize windows without having to move the mouse -- which you can do in microsoft windows.

-not being able to fully maximize windows

-not being able to put Mac OS X on my Tablet PC because I would enjoy this tablet so much more if it did run OS X. :yes:

[NeoMayhem]

-not being able to close windows when they are minimized into the dock

Right click on it, and click close ;)

-not being able to keep the mini-icon of a window in the dock while the window is actually out and being displayed. if the mini-icon of the window were to stay in the dock, then users could minimize and maximize windows without having to move the mouse -- which you can do in microsoft windows.

You can press apple+m to minimize the current app, I think showing all windows in the dock would make it to cluttered, but having this an option might be good.

I personally dont even bother minimizing things now thanks to expose' :p

-not being able to fully maximize windows

Some apps do this, so it is up to the developers.

[Morphie]

I am really surprised nobody mentionned the lack of CUT FUNCTION FOR FILES.

Sure, I love doing copy paste on files, but sometimes i'd like to be able to cut and paste them. Someone once explained to me on the forums that doing so would break the "clipboard methaphor" but it did not make much sense, and I'd rather have functionality than being true to a methaphor ;)

You will likely never be able to do this. I wanted this also, but I understand why Apple has chosen not to put this in here. The reason is the clipboard argument: If you cut a file in the finder, and then you cut a line of text from your word document, the file is gone. Snap, gone, bg, dead. That isn't good, and there are going to be a lot of people doing that all of the time, or at least performing similar actions.

It isn't worth having that feature for all of the bad ends it can bring to an OS, especially one trying to be friendly to everyone. If you think about it, it makes sense, and trust me it isn't coming anytime soon.

My biggest pet peeves with OS X:

IChat's extra strong chat spam filter, it's just a dash harsher than AIM, and it annoys me.

The finder. There is just too much wrong with it to even start. It drives me crazy, although I think it has the potential to get better, and it certainly beats windows w/o even trying.

The resizing thing only on lower right is the worst thing ever I agree, I don't know wtf they are thinking, I guess they don't want those little tread things on every corner.

I like that the windows don't go above the top of the screen, except KDX and other UI guidline breakers, those can all go to hell. I don't think I need full screen, unless it's a movie or something, and they all do that, but I suppose it'd be nice to have that as a feature, why not right?

My only other major peeve is the tiny gap in itunes and ipods when playing continuous mix mp3's that are tracked out, but that's a problem with the mp3 format itself so I guess that can't be their fault, but it makes me want to kill someone.

**To the poster of control-right arrow and control-left arrow: THANK YOU, I don't know how I didn't know this before, but that makes me very happy, it was litereally the one thing really missing, hah.

[snippet1]

You will likely never be able to do this. I wanted this also, but I understand why Apple has chosen not to put this in here. The reason is the clipboard argument: If you cut a file in the finder, and then you cut a line of text from your word document, the file is gone. Snap, gone, bg, dead. That isn't good, and there are going to be a lot of people doing that all of the time, or at least performing similar actions.

Windows gets around this by not actually moving the file until you paste it. Ie, you cut a file, only a reference to that file is put onto the clipboard - not the file itself. When you paste it, Windows moves the file according to the reference. If you copy/cut something else, only the reference is overwritten. This can be seen by selecting an icon on the desktop, pressing Ctrl+X (to cut) - the icon will become dimmed, showing that it's still there, but been marked as a cut.

[Fusion]

Windows gets around this by not actually moving the file until you paste it. Ie, you cut a file, only a reference to that file is put onto the clipboard - not the file itself. When you paste it, Windows moves the file according to the reference. If you copy/cut something else, only the reference is overwritten. This can be seen by selecting an icon on the desktop, pressing Ctrl+X (to cut) - the icon will become dimmed, showing that it's still there, but been marked as a cut.

Correct, and it would be great if Mac OS implemented a similar feature.

[the evn show]

So do the other major OS's but they destroy the clipboard metaphor: when you say "cut" you're not really cutting anything (not like you would be in a word processor) - it's more like "mark this/these files" so that I can do something with them later. In that sense mac os is 'more consistent' than other operating systems, but that doesn't make it any easier to use when the rest of the world has decided that its okay to break the clipboard for these actions.

I think an intelligent trade off would be to rename cut/copy/paste: "mark these files", "move the marked files here" and "duplicate the marked files here". The ambiguity is all gone, and the risk of doing something destructive is kept to a minimum. Best of all you aren't trying to map file operations to text editing functions.

I've sent feedback; but i doubt it will change.

NeoMayhem: I minimized this window, right-clicked on it's dock icon and I couldn't do anything with it (the context menu has a single disabled item: "Neowin.net -> Pet Peeve with Mac OS"). Am I missing something?

[snippet1]

STFU, clipboard metaphor! I mean it doesn't have to be perfectly consistent, if more funtionality is introduced.

Also, 'mark these files' is too long-winded, and would be very confusing to n00bs.

[the evn show]

You're concerned about "n00bs". How considerate.

About not breaking metaphors: that's what the entire graphical interface is. I'd argue with yoou but I honestly don't think you've got the background to make it entertaining or worth while. How about some reading first?

Apple's take on interfaces is well documented here, I'd specifically point out the "don't do destructive operations" comments. here Is a somewhat dry paper, but it does have some fairly good background information. This article makes the point that some metaphors are broken (ie: the clipboard) and that the ones me currently use should be revamped (ie: mark/move/duplicate) and specifically mentions the problems with breaking metaphors and the problems with physical limitations and how they effect the virtual recreation (this is exactly the problem with clipboard as we have it now).

You can agree with apple's decisions or not (I tend to agree with not using the clipboard for file management) it doesn't bother me. I think a better place to point your frustatration is at the way apple doesn't provide any method to move files in place of the clipboard.

Q: You say "mark these files" + "move the market files here" is confusing for 'n00bs'. How is it more confusing than "cut" which behaves unlike any other implimentation of the cut function but is amazingly less confusing to these magical illiterate n00bs?

If you don't like "Mark these files" - then "mark" or "select" would substitue nicely. Replace "move marked files here" with "move selection" and "copy selection" items. Now you don't have to stress your brain with all that reading. I'm not proposing a final solution, just noting an alternative to the clipboard. Also you should notice that apple recommends clear menu items (right click on a link in safari: note how verbose the context menu is)

To further illustarte the issues with clipboard for file management here's a link to "the interface hall of shame" which documents all sorts of stuff like this:

http://digilander.libero.it/chiediloapippo...ect/explore.htm

Specifically the 4th section.

Here's one solution already implimented in pathfinder that works well:

http://www.cocoatech.com/images/demo/dropStack.mov

[snippet1]

You can agree with apple's decisions or not (I tend to agree with not using the clipboard for file management) it doesn't bother me. I think a better place to point your frustatration is at the way apple doesn't provide any method to move files in place of the clipboard.

Q: You say "mark these files" + "move the market files here" is confusing for 'n00bs'. How is it more confusing than "cut" which behaves unlike any other implimentation of the cut function but is amazingly less confusing to these magical illiterate n00bs?

If you don't like "Mark these files" - then "mark" or "select" would substitue nicely. Replace "move marked files here" with "move selection" and "copy selection" items. Now you don't have to stress your brain with all that reading. I'm not proposing a final solution, just noting an alternative to the clipboard. Also you should notice that apple recommends clear menu items (right click on a link in safari: note how verbose the context menu is)

Ok, let me clear something up - I have used OSX little, so I can't give first hand references to many things. I'm just trying to expain ways I think things could be done better.

-Ok, well the general clipboard need not be used for file tasks - I never said that was a must, just gave ways it could be used.

-Mark these files? Mark the files for what? For copying? Moving? Deleting? Transmitting into space? I just think it could be worded better.

-And move selection? Move what selection - the selection in the finder? Word? Safari?

Just maybe go in a different direction...

[NeoMayhem]

NeoMayhem: I minimized this window, right-clicked on it's dock icon and I couldn't do anything with it (the context menu has a single disabled item: "Neowin.net -> Pet Peeve with Mac OS"). Am I missing something?

Yes, I have the 'Close' Option, here is a screenshot...

[Southern Patriot]

Yes, I have the 'Close' Option, here is a screenshot...

That's strange. On 10.3 I don't get that on any program that I try to minimize.

EDIT: Hmmm, I tried it with PowerPoint and Word and it does show that. It seems to be a per-program feature, not a general feature of the OS. Either that, or it's a "Microsoft feature" (otherwise known as a bug).

Edited January 17, 2004 by roadwarrior

[the evn show]

-Mark these files? Mark the files for what? For copying? Moving? Deleting? Transmitting into space? I just think it could be worded better.

Like I said I'm expressing the concept: the wording is something that isn't vitally important once we decide not to use terms that already mean something else. I'm sure apple could find something simple and descriptive. Using cocoatech's and to a lesser extent the "shelf" concept from another popular OS but dead OS Apple owns provide better ways to do this (IMO and apparently Apple's too).

-And move selection? Move what selection - the selection in the finder? Word? Safari?

The menu bar is always tied to the foreground application. Is your OS X experience that limited (if so I can understand the confusion as the single menubar concept is foriegn to windows/x11 users) or were you just looking for confusion where there was none.

Just maybe go in a different direction...

I agree just about anything would be better than the facilities we have now (basicly nothing other than drag/drop or the terminal). But I don't think the clip board is something to mangle to fit this function, apparently apple agrees - but doesn't have any better ideas either.

Reuse is good, but only so far as it remains logical.

[snippet1]

Another way Windows has to move stuff is a 'Move to here...' thing. It pops up a window, where you can select the destination. Not sure if OSX has something comparable. :/

[the evn show]

That's strange. On 10.3 I don't get that on any program that I try to minimize.

EDIT: Hmmm, I tried it with PowerPoint and Word and it does show that. It seems to be a per-program feature, not a general feature of the OS. Either that, or it's a "Microsoft feature" (otherwise known as a bug).

It's definetly per application.

Works with finder, not with ichat, or safari.

I think its fair to blame apple for this if it bugs you - forcing developers to add this functionality doesn't 'feel' like the right way to do it. It doesn't bother me at all so I'm not going to comment further on this. Expos? has made minimizing the acception rather than the rule for me.

[mr_daemon]

Phew, I have stirred things up with my cut files thing.

Now that the clipboard methaphor has been explained to me, I understand it alot better (Thanks, the evn show). I agree that the "select/mark files" option would be great functionality while keeping all logics and consistency intact altrough the operating system. Or what could be achieved as well could consist of a spot in the dock where I could drag files from and to in order to not have to go through the spring loaded folders. Because, like it or not, spring loaded folders are not that fun, if you slip out the main window (easy to do with the touchpad on my iBook) they all close...

I used to find my way around that in Mac OS 8 by creating a lovely "tab" folder at the bottom called "dropbox" that would be sort of be used as temporary filespace in which I could put and retrieve stuff if needed. With expos? (more specifically the "show desktop" function) and a simple folder, I could be able to achieve such results... but somehow, I really miss the "cut" (or whatsoever) functionality for files.

P.S.:

My spelling is just plain awful tonight, please pay no attention to whatever scars your eyes -- I'm just utterly tired.

[NeoMayhem]

Or what could be achieved as well could consist of a spot in the dock where I could drag files from and to in order to not have to go through the spring loaded folders.

That is a great idea, you should send it to apple ;)

That would really work perfectly and just be cool.

[the evn show]

^ I wonder if that's something apple script could handle.

it's easy to create a script that accepts things dropped on it, but I'm not sure you can make something happen when the script is moved, single clicked, or pulled of the dock.

[Dr.Jones]

I don't want to start a flame war, and maybe you will tell me i'm not in the right forum to talk about Windows, but all the talk about the cut and paste of files left me perplex.

In Windows, it's so simple. And it would be easy to implement in OS X. Ctrl-x (cut) a file doesn't remove the file from its actual place, it just copies its path, and WHEN you paste only will the file be moved.

If you had to copy or cut anything else between those operations, the file will not disappear, only it's linking in the clipboard.

Or maybe that was the whole 'n00bs would be confused' method discussed earlier...

[Fusion]

I don't want to start a flame war, and maybe you will tell me i'm not in the right forum to talk about Windows, but all the talk about the cut and paste of files left me perplex.

In Windows, it's so simple. And it would be easy to implement in OS X. Ctrl-x (cut) a file doesn't remove the file from its actual place, it just copies its path, and WHEN you paste only will the file be moved.

If you had to copy or cut anything else between those operations, the file will not disappear, only it's linking in the clipboard.

Or maybe that was the whole 'n00bs would be confused' method discussed earlier...

A little. It is just a confused metaphor that windows has abused. The action is not actually "cut" even though that's what it's called. It's more of a "mark these files for move awaiting another user input" namely "paste." The reason, presumably, that apple has not implemented this is because it then has 2 definitions of cut to deal with. Windows compensated for this by adding clipboard managers in applications such as office. That way, if you cut something, then something else, they will both be in the clipboard manager so you did not loose anything.

What evn's suggestion was to have an another activity exactly like the way windows acts with files, but name it something different. Something like "mark for move" and then when you get to the dir where you want the file, a command called "move."

[the evn show]

In Windows, it's so simple. And it would be easy to implement in OS X. Ctrl-x (cut) a file doesn't remove the file from its actual place, it just copies its path, and WHEN you paste only will the file be moved.

If you had to copy or cut anything else between those operations, the file will not disappear, only it's linking in the clipboard.

I hate to chime in with an "I agree" post, but fusion beat me to this.

The reason "Cut/Paste" on windows is broken is because it doesn't move the file until you choose cut. There are two ways to fix this:

1) When you choose "cut" the file is copied exactly as is, and removed from the file system (as far as the user is concerned). When you paste the file it will magically re-materialize wherever you're pasting it. Open a file in an editor, Cut the file from the file system, change file file & save it, then choose to paste the original file it should either replace the newly saved file or be pasted with a different name (possibly displaying an error about a name collision). If you cut one file, then cut or copy another the first one is destroyed forever. This is exactly how the clip board behaves in every other program. If your clipboard does something else (as it does in Explorer) then you're not actually using a clipboard. If you're not using a clipboard then it would be nice if you could use many names that don't already have another meaning.

2) Don't have cut/paste using the clip board, either use different names for these functions (what I would prefer) or don't provide a move command except for drag/drop (what apple does).

Imagine if we decided to re-use "open, save, and print" functions rather than "cut, copy, and paste". Using the clipboard to move files does the same thing (though obviously the names of each action make a little more sense).

Fusion also points out another problem with using the clipboard (one which OS X and Windows solve in different ways). Using the clipboard doesn't behave the same way when using files vs date - like text in applicaations. On windows you have two "clipboards": one for data, one for files. Some programs take this even further and make their own clipboards that behave in even stranger ways; MS Office is one of these programs. If you're in word and select some text, then go to Explorer and choose "paste" nothing happens. If you select a file then rename then paste you're text gets pasted as the file name. If you chose "copy" on a file, then paste into word you get the original text you copied. Huh - that's not at all intuitive if you haven't been spent some time learning the windows way of doing things.

On OS X when you select some text and then paste into finder nothing happens (IMO it should create a clipping). If you select a folder choose copy, then paste into a text editor - the name of the folder will be pasted (mostly this makes sense). If you paste into finder then the folder will be copied (what should happen). If you copy a folder, then copy some text, then try to paste in the finder the file will no longer be copied (what should happen on a system with 'one true clipboard'). Imagine if these actions were done with "cut" instead of copy: you could have some serious data loss issues, unless you used the windows methodology of breaking the clipboard and use different clipboards depending on the context of the 'cut/copy' action.

I don't want to touch the issue of "copying" a file vs copying the contents of that file at all. The arguement could go either way (ideally i think that copying a file from finder and pasting it into word should paste the contents of that file - but 95% of the time that's not something you're going to want to do).

It would be better to just avoid all this cruft by not abusing the clibboard in this way.

Windows 3.11 didn't and the world was good. It's my opinion that using the clipboard to copy/cut/paste data is a terrible idea that only has traction because Windows 95+ does it that way, not bceause it's a technically elegant solution. People dislike the 'arbitrary' change because they don't understand the reasoning against it.

---

I'm not trying to argue that using the clipboard isn't convienent - I'm saying that it's not the best solution. It's not that Apple's solution (do nothing) is more convienet, I'm saying I'd rather have no feature than one that is broken/confusing.

[Steve]

The whole cut and paste argument doesn't really need arguiing does it? I mean, on OS X we have Spring Loaded folders, which seems more logical to me. Certainly easier for a beginner to grasp, i'd think?

Pardon me if i missed the concept, i didn't feel like reading 100 posts :p