SpaceX Updates (Thread 8)

[flyingskippy]

Just out of curiosity, how long can S2 coast through space before the RP-1 freezes or no longer be used for propulsion?

[DocM]

NASA Statement About SpaceX Private Moon Venture Announcement

The following is a statement on SpaceX’s announcement Monday about a private space mission around the moon:

“NASA commends its industry partners for reaching higher.

“We will work closely with SpaceX to ensure it safely meets the contractual obligations to return the launch of astronauts to U.S. soil and continue to successfully deliver supplies to the International Space Station.

“For more than a decade, NASA has invested in private industry to develop capabilities for the American people and seed commercial innovation to advance humanity's future in space.

“NASA is changing the way it does business through its commercial partnerships to help build a strong American space economy and free the agency to focus on developing the next-generation rocket, spacecraft and systems to go beyond the moon and sustain deep space exploration.”

-end-

[Unobscured Vision]

6 hours ago, DocM said:

This. ^^ Commander Kelly's experience would be IDEAL for such an endeavor. He's more than qualified, he just needs the training for a mission such as this -- and now's the time for one to toss their hat onto the pile.  And what better way to get his appetite whetted to be an Astronaut again than a Lunar flyby mission -- and he will want to go back for a ground mission later. You don't just drive by and not come back later ...  

 

Other notables that come immediately to mind would be Suni Williams (and she's been training on the SpaceX gear already), Chris Boe (also been training with Suni Williams) and Chris Hadfield (needs training like Commander Kelly).

 

Wouldn't be surprised if all four from the Commercial Crew Program fly this mission. SpaceX is going to want to get these peoples' expertise pooled up on this one.

7 hours ago, DocM said:

The odds of a D2 test article on the Falcon Heavy maiden flight doing a high velocity re-entry test just went way the hell up.

Un-crewed D2 to ISS is in November, crewed to ISS about 6 months later and the flight abort test between them. 

 

Damn....

I was thinking something like this too, earlier. SpaceX is going to do some kind of "rehearsal" for this mission. They'll want first-hand experience with this stuff, and they won't send a crew unless they know how to do it. Good call, @DocM.  

[DocM]

7 hours ago, flyingskippy said:

Just out of curiosity, how long can S2 coast through space before the RP-1 freezes or no longer be used for propulsion?

The S2 would likely do a direct TLI burn shortly after launch, so a long life shouldn't be needed.

 

That said; a thermal barrel roll, combined with the conformal solar array (up to 5 kWh) and radiator techs used on Dragon 2's Trunk, should be applicable to S2. Some combination should be able to provide RP-1 thermal management.

[DocM]

Chief scientist, NanoRacks,

 

 

[Unobscured Vision]

Seems like a prior Circumlunar mission by SpaceX would be a perfect opportunity to deploy an Iridium/SpaceX Cubesat constellation to get a minimal network going ... no (or very few) communication blackouts and it could stay there for as long as the sats hold up.  

 

Just an idea.

[Jim K Global Moderator]

1 hour ago, DocM said:

Chief scientist, NanoRacks,

 

 

The "spacesuits" is a bit funny.  However, the tweet would have been far more accurate if it read ... 

 

NASA: We've walked on the moon.  

 

Don't get me wrong.. this is exciting from a publicity standpoint...not necessarily a scientific or engineering standpoint.  A flyby achieves really nothing more than what we already did 48 years ago with Apollo 10...except that we can still do it 49 years later. /shrug

 

Looking forward to Mars. 

 

Will be nice to see high res pictures/video though of the trip to the moon. 

[Unobscured Vision]

I'm sure that there will be all kinds of sponsorship on this one. GoPro, etc. They'll want in on it. We'll have the highest-resolution images ever, I think.  

[DocM]

Chris Bergin's NSF article quotes a NASA HQ source who believes the Orion EM-1 speedup was spurred by the Acting NASA Admin being briefed about the Dragon lunar mission.

 

Article.....

[Unobscured Vision]

I've been reading the thread. Lot of sides being taken now. Crazy times.

[DocM]

I'd go with Marshall etc. being ticked because they're SLS/Orion centric and other centers like Dryden, KSC etc. being more supportive because they work with the commercial companies through contracts or Space Act Agreements.  Several folks from supportive centers were definitely whooping it up on Twitter last night, including some former  astronauts.

 

 

[Unobscured Vision]

It's their own fault if they're on the wrong side of this. Playing politics and then coming out on the losing side because of it, then crying foul when they can't keep up. I'm not sympathetic at ALL to their plight. Those who can't (or refuse) to innovate will be left on the wayside. MSFC has always been the "NASA Politics Center" anyway; so naturally they'd be the ones squawking about it the loudest.

 

Oh, and the others who are playing dirty by attempting to give SpaceX a bad rep or otherwise besmirch their name, as pointed out earlier, are the same people who are responsible for SLS/Orion being a DECADE behind the times technology-wise. Now they're crying about it to anyone who will listen. Can't have OldSpace losing their cash cows -- heaven forbid that any progress occurs. That wouldn't be acceptable to the status quo at all. 

 

No, my friends, what we have here is a case of sour grapes. OldSpace couldn't do it, so NewSpace is -- more quickly. And OldSpace is mad because they can't dictate the timetable. They'll try, of course. They'll attempt to force NASA to "stick to the program". And eventually NASA is going to get sick and tired of being talked down to ... 

 

And that's when the walking papers will get distributed, with instructions on how to proceed to the nearest egress.

 

Either that or SpaceX decides to stop dealing with NASA, citing "we won't do business with you people anymore if this is the climate you choose to perpetuate. We're going to Mars, and you are in NO position to stop us.".

 

It's going to be one or the other, eventually.

[DocM]

The water is tinged brown due to rust in the rainbirds.

 

Reminder: the rainbirds are 60 feet (10.288 meters) high.

 

SpaceX Water Deluge Test at Pad 39A

Water sprays onto Launch Complex 39A during a test by SpaceX of the sound suppression system at the launch pad. The water deluge diminishes vibration at the pad during a liftoff to protect the pad structures and rocket itself from excessive shaking. Photo credit: NASA/Kim Shiflett

 

[Unobscured Vision]

Interesting ... discussion ... that Mr. Bigelow got himself into on Twitter today.

With some of the responses from followers ...

 

So ... I guess that nobody told Mr. Bigelow about the upgraded fairing yet? Unless his company is locked-in with ULA for the 330 launch ... then he (obviously) wouldn't be able to discuss future plans or comment on SpaceX's doings. /shrug

 

I suppose, also, that is is more telling about the Atlas V than it is anything else. It'll certainly be the heaviest thing Atlas V has toted uphill ... I wonder how much of a performance margin there will be. Hmm ... probably belongs in the Bigelow Aerospace thread. I'll take it there.  

[DocM]

Well, we don't know the length of the new Falcon fairing yet and the B330 length increased a bit from early specs.

[Unobscured Vision]

Yeah. It's cool though. Bigelow is already committed to launching on Atlas for that first flight. Later on down the road maybe the opportunity for SpaceX to handle it on FH with a nice, massive, reusable fairing will be in the cards.  No worries.

[DocM]

Putting numbers to it, 

 

The BA-330 (old) was 13.7m long vs. the new B330's 17.3m.

 

The difference is a docking attachment which looks suspiciously like the Axiom Space extension node proposed to attach ISS to new habitat modules and for spacecraft to dock to. Previously the BA-330's node was sent up on a separate launch and they were assembled on-orbit.

 

This extension is shown on recent Bigelow graphics.

 

 

 

Axiom Space node

Edited March 1, 2017 by DocM

[Unobscured Vision]

Ahh yes. The docking tube, solar panels + radiators contraption. I thought it was a myth ... 

 

Well it does give Dragon 2 some much-needed cap clearance, and avoids the need to eject said cap. Gives the solar panels and the radiators a dedicated footprint ... ehhh ... hmm ... alrighty then. So be it.

[SALSN]

Just wanted to hear your comments on this ars article if you've read it: https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/02/if-you-think-nasa-is-frustrated-with-spacex-youre-probably-right/

Are the allegations of NASA being frustrated correct, or over analysis? To me it sounds petty, NASA should be glad that SpaceX is doing their work for them, and exceeding requirements. and the claims of loosing focus seems entirely ridiculous, for SpaceX to go around the moon, they got to be super comfortable with sending people to space, which again is in NASA's best interest.
Sure SpaceX has gotten a lot of help from NASA, but again, to MUTUAL benefit.

The rockets blowing up have been part of the effort to make them cheaper and more capable, which in the end also will benefit NASA. And no astronauts have been harmed, I seriously doubt they would ever fly a new system for the first time with people on board.

I can understand if someone feels jealous, but that can hardly be the official position of an organization, let alone NASA.

At this point I don't understand why they even bother continuing the SLS program. It seems like these capabilities can be provided by the private sector cheaper. Is it really worth building this backup when multiple companies are on the verge of having these capabilities, and will most likely finish before NASA?

Anyway, just want to hear if you think I'm totally biased, or there is nothing to the article?

[DocM]

Some parts of NASA feel very positively about SpaceX (the line guys) and others not so much - mainly the suits who have history at the oldspace companies or who want to go to one of them after their 25 years are in. 

 

In this situation there are rumors SpaceX gave NASA a heads up about the lunar mission some time ago. The grapevine dumped it on certain suits and the SLS magically happened. At least that's one version.  

 

However the timing worked, some suits feel intruded upon in spite of the fact that one of the objectives of Commercial Crew was to kick-start a commercial space industry. Mission accomplished, big-time.

[Draggendrop Veteran]

Just my opinion...

 

The announcement is a troubling indication to events that may or may not be prevented...

 

1) This "announcement" is what triggered the SLS silliness.

 

2) Many have known about this for at least a month.

 

3) What caused the sudden "interest" for two "passengers" to effectively cover the entire launch cost. (timing is everything)

 

This is just my "business poker" analysis of the situation.

 

We can be relatively sure that funding changes were coming to NASA, some for good reason such as the science shift to NOAA which makes sense.

 

What we are privy to is that "items" will be decided on, for reduction of "discretionary" spending, such as NASA and the SLS boondoggle. The SLS presents a problem and that is the "congress critters, which can do some real damage when provoked. 

 

I actually now believe that this was a preemptive "poker call" that was extremely necessary to save not only Commercial Crew, but to indirectly help put a face on to "beyond earth" spaceflight.

 

What has this potentially achieved....

 

1) Justified Commercial Crew 

 

2) May have helped to save NewSpace growth.

 

3) Inadvertently "called out" the congress critters and positioned them to "put up or shut up", meaning, put an effort into completion of  SLS and find missions, or start cancelling items such as Orion.

 

4) Helped to bolster ULA and ensure a 2 launch system  now, more later.

 

5) And importantly, prop NASA to show how important they have been to civilian achievements and a further continuation of the same principles.

 

Basically...."potholes" or "potholes" and "space"...and this is still being orchestrated, ....stay tuned

 

Frankly...no one walks "out of the blue" and wants a ride around the moon, when Commercial Crew is still pushing deadlines and FH is months out from it test flight....This is big time poker.

[Unobscured Vision]

Hey there, DD.  

 

Any of the above could be in play. Time will tell what's what ... but this will light a fire under NASA's rear, and OldSpace isn't going to just accept this either. Now we'll see who's really in charge down there.

[DocM]

FYI - L2 first heard about this 2 years ago, so it's not new or unexpected.

 

AIUI, pieced together from multiple sources, NASA was given a heads up when the customers confirmed their reservations. SpaceX offered NASA first dibs to put astronauts on their first lunar flight with the customers going on their second flight, then the rush to accelerate SLS-Orion EM-1 happened.  You know the rest.

[DocM]

FYI - L2 first heard about this 2 years ago, so it's not new or unexpected

 

AIUI, pieced together from multiple sources, NASA was given a heads up when the customers confirmed their reservations. SpaceX offered NASA first dibs to put astronauts on their first lunar flight with the customers going on their second flight, then the rush to accelerate SLS-Orion EM-1 happened. Musk announced shortly after.

[Draggendrop Veteran]

11 minutes ago, Unobscured Vision said:

Hey there, DD.  

 

Any of the above could be in play. Time will tell what's what ... but this will light a fire under NASA's rear, and OldSpace isn't going to just accept this either. Now we'll see who's really in charge down there.

True, but my initial response was not happy at having NewSpace forced into this move and "my gut" told me, this is a well orchestrated reactionary play to save the status quo. This goes way beyond SpaceX, but since they are the public face of commercial, they may have had no choice. This is a perception play.

 

Can SpaceX do the moon trip, of course they can, and so can Roscosmos with a bit of lead time, because they were eventually going to do it anyway, it just was not justified at this time. This was not important until a power play was forced.

 

This will get the general populace talking, generate interest and make certain "decisions to the contrary" diffucult.

 

This is not about SpaceX...period...

 

2 minutes ago, DocM said:

FYI - L2 first heard about this 2 years ago, so it's not new or unexpected.

 

AIUI, pieced together from multiple sources, NASA was given a heads up when the customers confirmed their reservations. SpaceX offered NASA first dibs to put astronauts on their first lunar flight with the customers going on their second flight, then the rush to accelerate SLS-Orion EM-1 happened. 

Frankly, L2 could have have heard about it 5 years ago and it still makes no difference. They were not in a position to do anything until just recently...and the rest, I was more than well aware of the circumstances..

 

Just my opinion...This is a "power play"....give this a year until the real issue surfaces and then we'll see.

 

This is nothing but undue pressure on SpaceX, particularly when they have a mess of paying customers to get launched...this does not help.