Muslim Stabs Man To Death After 'Religious Argument' at University


Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, Tuskd said:

There's always a tipping point. Its not like he said, 'This thing that Islam says is wrong' and got immediately stabbed. That wouldn't be an argument. He had voluntarily driven the conversation to the point where his life was at threat. Considering the fact that the deceased had some knowledge about the religion and knew what 'could' happen, why didn't he walk away? From the article
 

Now tell me, was the deceased sensible? reasonable?

Like I said, the fault is on both of them.

I've had thousands of arguments throughout my life, on thousands of topics including religion, some have gotten extremely heated, and NONE of them resulted in someone pulling a knife or throwing a punch.

 

So yes, it's very telling that one side of said argument was apparently more prone to violence than the other.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, FloatingFatMan said:

I've had thousands of arguments throughout my life, on thousands of topics including religion, some have gotten extremely heated, and NONE of them resulted in someone pulling a knife or throwing a punch.

 

So yes, it's very telling that one side of said argument was apparently more prone to violence than the other.

 

But If you take into consideration that both were drunk during the arguments, you would appreciate the fact that both were equally prone to violence. Just that one took the opportunity to do it first.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Drunk man stabs Drunk man after an argument - Obviously, religion HAS to be the cause because this has NEVER happened before. 

 

People (unfortunately) use violence to solve arguments from which football team you support to which political party you voted for. Let's not fall for anything other than what this is, the Media taking a story and sensationalising it because it's a hot topic right now. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll admit. I did not read the source and was carried away by the initial comments until FloatingFatMan quoted me. So basically whatever Skiver said. Drunk man stabs another drunk man. But that doesn't mean that I take back my words on Islam. It really needs a change for good.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Yazoo said:

still not answered my question has it? Why this and not any other news what was the purpose of choosing this one.  

 

 

The initial question was answered, as for your follow-up on this forum there are 25 posts per page and currently 1253 pages of posts. Are forum posters really being selective about what they posts? Or would you rather approve what people hear about and what they don't?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, Tuskd said:

I'll admit. I did not read the source and was carried away by the initial comments until FloatingFatMan quoted me. So basically whatever Skiver said. Drunk man stabs another drunk man. But that doesn't mean that I take back my words on Islam. It really needs a change for good.

Muslims are not supposed to drink, ever, so I guess this guy wasn't even a muslim anyway.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

Muslims are not supposed to drink, ever, so I guess this guy wasn't even a muslim anyway.

 

Depends on which Muslim person you speak to and what kind of idea they have that day on how their religion should be. Seems every person and\or Muslim changes their ideas on what is right and wrong with the wind!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, restroom said:

Depends on which Muslim person you speak to and what kind of idea they have that day on how their religion should be. Seems every person and\or Muslim changes their ideas on what is right and wrong with the wind!

Nope.  Drinking is haram in all sects of Islam. If you drink alcohol, you're not a Muslim according to its own rules.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

Nope.  Drinking is haram in all sects of Islam. If you drink alcohol, you're not a Muslim according to its own rules.

So you see extremist interpretations as the norm?  No need to evolve or progress to move with the times and integrate better...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

Nope.  Drinking is haram in all sects of Islam. If you drink alcohol, you're not a Muslim according to its own rules.

Only enforced when it suites them though. Look at that recent arrested extremist int he UK. Used to drink and smoke weed, yet still called himself a muslim back then. Its his view that changed over time and he suddenly decided that it was against his religion to drink and smoke weed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, Nik Louch said:

So you see extremist interpretations as the norm?  No need to evolve or progress to move with the times and integrate better...

Muslims believe that the Quran is the actual word of God. ALL Muslims believe this. Alchohol is expressly forbidden in the Quran, is is Haram. If you disobey the word of god, you are not a Muslim.  The Quran cannot be changed in any way by man as to do so would be the worst kind of sacrilege.

 

There is no wiggle room here, they paint themselves into the corner, not I.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

Muslims believe that the Quran is the actual word of God. ALL Muslims believe this. Alchohol is expressly forbidden in the Quran, is is Haram. If you disobey the word of god, you are not a Muslim.  The Quran cannot be changed in any way by man as to do so would be the worst kind of sacrilege.

 

There is no wiggle room here, they paint themselves into the corner, not I.

And Christianity used to be similarly rigid (for example), but has changed with the times, adapted to suit a more modern world.

 

So a Muslim person either follows the book to the letter (and thankfully at least there have been fewer mistranslated versions than the Bible) and is an extremist or adjusts their following to take the book as a series of allegories (as per most sensible Christians) and is now (as per your comment) no longer following Islam correctly?

 

I think you will find that, all across the UK there are Muslim organisations that tell how to follow the book in ways that correlate to existing UK culture and norms, and they consider themselves very much Muslim, and the only people who don't agree would be fundamentalists.  So now we take the fundamentalists as the one's who's advice should be followed, rather than progressives who accept the world has to adapt?

You're painting them into a corner - which I know you will rebuke that:

1) They paint themselves into a corner by the way the book is said as the word of God

2) It's not YOUR interpretation, it's THEIRS

 

Both very valid and fair comments, but again, the same could have been leveled at earlier Christians.  There are some Muslim people who agree it's the word of God and other's who agree it's advice from a different age and area of the world that is open to interpretation.  It's not for you or I to say who's right here, who most correlates with what "true" Islam is, as many "true" Muslims have different opinions on what "true" Islam is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Tuskd said:

 

Bottom-line: Change the functioning of Islam and the remove any such verse that entices people to commit wrongdoings. Out of sight = Out of mind.

That's exactly your 1 way ticket to Beheadville.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Nik Louch said:

And Christianity used to be similarly rigid (for example), but has changed with the times, adapted to suit a more modern world.

 

So a Muslim person either follows the book to the letter (and thankfully at least there have been fewer mistranslated versions than the Bible) and is an extremist or adjusts their following to take the book as a series of allegories (as per most sensible Christians) and is now (as per your comment) no longer following Islam correctly?

 

I think you will find that, all across the UK there are Muslim organisations that tell how to follow the book in ways that correlate to existing UK culture and norms, and they consider themselves very much Muslim, and the only people who don't agree would be fundamentalists.  So now we take the fundamentalists as the one's who's advice should be followed, rather than progressives who accept the world has to adapt?

You're painting them into a corner - which I know you will rebuke that:

1) They paint themselves into a corner by the way the book is said as the word of God

2) It's not YOUR interpretation, it's THEIRS

 

Both very valid and fair comments, but again, the same could have been leveled at earlier Christians.  There are some Muslim people who agree it's the word of God and other's who agree it's advice from a different age and area of the world that is open to interpretation.  It's not for you or I to say who's right here, who most correlates with what "true" Islam is, as many "true" Muslims have different opinions on what "true" Islam is.

I think you fail to understand Islam, Nik.  Christianity has never claimed that the Bible was written by god himself. It's always been maintained to be a collection of stories about the life of Christ (New Testament), and allegories teaching Christians how to live life the way god wishes us too.

 

The Quran, on the other hand, was dictated to Mohammed by the archangel Gabriel himself (so they maintain), and that it IS the unchangeable word of god.  You talk to any Muslim and ask them that, and they WILL tell you that this is a fact as far as they are concerned.  The Hadiths are more what the Christian bible is, and do not have to be obeyed, but the Quran is different.  Sure there are "moderate" Muslims who try to coexist peacefully with others, but even they will tell you, the Quran must be obeyed.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

I think you fail to understand Islam, Nik.  Christianity has never claimed that the Bible was written by god himself. It's always been maintained to be a collection of stories about the life of Christ (New Testament), and allegories teaching Christians how to live life the way god wishes us too.

 

The Quran, on the other hand, was dictated to Mohammed by the archangel Gabriel himself (so they maintain), and that it IS the unchangeable word of god.  You talk to any Muslim and ask them that, and they WILL tell you that this is a fact as far as they are concerned.  The Hadiths are more what the Christian bible is, and do not have to be obeyed, but the Quran is different.  Sure there are "moderate" Muslims who try to coexist peacefully with others, but even they will tell you, the Quran must be obeyed.

 

No I do understand that, and I'm fully aware that the way I'm communicating this is wrong...

 

Muslims claim the word is directly that of God as transcribed by Mohammed.  I get that, it's their belief.  I understand that the Bible is by it's own definition "according to".  I do see the difference and accept how that changes things in people's perceptions.

 

But many of the more progressive groups of Muslims have accepted that this is still just a series of stories and guides on how to live, and have accepted that to integrate better into a 2016 Western world, it should be treated more as guidelines, maybe rules, but not 100% verbatim dictated word.  As such, these people see themselves as valid a Muslim as the cleric who wouldn't even dare entertain such thoughts.  Genuinely, I see them every weekend and have engaged with them to learn more about what they are saying.

 

In fact, some of them see themselves as "better" Muslims - not insofar as looking down or judging others, but rather that they have taken scripture and applied logical thought also - so as such they suggest that they have interpreted as it was meant rather than just blindly following.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Nik Louch said:

As such, these people see themselves as valid a Muslim as the cleric who wouldn't even dare entertain such thoughts.  Genuinely, I see them every weekend.

Sure. But I can guarantee you that the far greater majority of Muslims do NOT see things that way, especially the 1000's flooding into Europe to escape (mostly) poverty and some, conflict.  Ask any of those, and they will tell you clear as day, the moderates are not Muslims and will feel the wrath of god (probably whilst still on Earth because, as we've seen, many Muslims just LOVE to punish people on God's behalf).

 

The old "No true Scot" fallacy strikes again, y'know.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, link6155 said:

I don't usually get into such discussion when it comes to religion in general, especially Islam/Muslims. I have friends who are Muslims and they're some of the nicest people I know. I saddens me to see how the action of some Islamic individual being applied to everyone in that faith.

images.jpg

 

 

Really - just stop.
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Yazoo said:

why is this news, what was the purpose of posting this? 

a reminder - it needs to be drilled in, everyday / all day.

Have it play on your Bose soundwave at night when your sleeping.


OR - maybe - just maybe

Its news, its pertinent, it current, this little topic comes up daily.


Since it is embarrassing to you - you can always leave, cant you ?  .. (I dont mean the thread or the site)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

Sure. But I can guarantee you that the far greater majority of Muslims do NOT see things that way, especially the 1000's flooding into Europe to escape (mostly) poverty and some, conflict.  Ask any of those, and they will tell you clear as day, the moderates are not Muslims and will feel the wrath of god (probably whilst still on Earth because, as we've seen, many Muslims just LOVE to punish people on God's behalf).

 

The old "No true Scot" fallacy strikes again, y'know.

 

I dare say that you are correct.  But I counter than the % of these who would turn to violence in an argument differs minimally from the % of any group of people in a similar situation.

 

Painting the majority of Muslims as violent aggressors is just unfair and ignorant (not saying you did).

Just now, T3X4S said:

a reminder - it needs to be drilled in, everyday / all day.

Have it play on your Bose soundwave at night when your sleeping.


OR - maybe - just maybe

Its news, its pertinent, it current, this little topic comes up daily.


Since it is embarrassing to you - you can always leave, cant you ?  .. (I dont mean the thread or the site)

We have always been at war with Eurasia!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, trag3dy said:

Seems to be a popular thing to say these days. "Not all muslims are extremists", "not all muslims believe in death penalty for being gay", "not all muslims care if you disagree with islam", etc etc etc. Every time one of them commits a horrendous act like this.

 

Now I'm not saying this guy wasn't unhinged to begin with but no other religion in the world really justifies murder for just diagreeing with it the way islam does.

I totally agree with you @trag3dy. Blaming an entire cast, creed, race or religion just for the wrong doing and extremism of a small sect of fanatics is not justified at all. Yes there have been an increased occurrences where in majority of hate crimes, Muslims are involved but hey, every race has a faction of extremists in it. So it would be better off to stop generalizing.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, FloatingFatMan said:

Why should he be "asking for trouble" just because he has an argument with someone about their religion?  Any peaceful, sensible, reasonable person would either refute any arguments, or walk away.

This part of your comment I agree with.

 

5 hours ago, FloatingFatMan said:

That the Muslim resorted to violence is rather telling.

This part I do not. Many of my friends and colleagues are Muslim and would never respond in this way; in fact there are over 1.6 billion Muslims and the vast majority would not respond in such a manner. To ignore that and paint all followers of Islam as violent lunatics is unfair and misrepresentative.

 

In any religion there are those that take scripture literally and without objectivity, which is very dangerous. There are only a small number of Jews in the world yet the percentage of extremists is very high and Israel—the only Jewish state—is responsible for horrific war crimes and human rights abuses. Muslims kill very few people in western countries—and it has been pointed out that ISIS is a political movement rather than a religious one numerous times—yet the media coverage is relentlessly negative; Israel carpets bombs Palestine and yet is defended by large segments of the media. The Rwandan Genocide was committed by Christians and resulted in up to a million deaths yet that isn't treated as representative of Christianity. Anders Breivik committed a massacre in the name of Christian values yet the media didn't portray Christianity as a violent religion, doing everything it could to downplay it. We need to keep things in perspective.

 

I oppose organised religion and disdain irrational beliefs but I have an obligation to ensure that any discussion on the matter is representative and accurate. Islam, Christianity and Judaism can all be practiced peacefully but all have a problem with religious zealots who pose a danger to society. One has to consider the political realities in countries like Iraq and Pakistan and the desperate conditions there, rather than painting all Muslims around the world as a distinct entity.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.