Mainstream Linux laptop


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Lots of talks about linux as a desktop for mainstreams are heard everywhere. IBM supports Novell and the latter bougt suse - the best linux maker (shame on redhat). So could we at least get an offer from IBM. Otherwise i would be forced to spend some extra euros for mac. and anyway are major makers like hp somehow tieded to m$? There are already some SMALL vendors selling semi underground laptops/pcs preloaded with linux or more frequently withouty any os. But i want an extended warranty and other things that only market leaders could guarantee.

About reliability: i changed all my coolers twice + hdd (thanx god for that i had a warranty) in 2 years for my "underground" desktop.

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Id love to see it, and now that the big guns are backing Linux we might find more supporting software to back up both the day to day needs of users, and professionals.

This is going to be a big year for Linux.

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Sorry Daugirdas but I didnt understand much of what you said all that (sorry, no offence intended).

I assume that you are wanting to purchase a laptop preloaded with Linux, and you are wondering why there are none available, despite a lot of hardware manufacturers supporting Linux on server systems.

A few big hardware vendors do supply Linux with laptops, as long as you mention that you want Linux. Toshiba is one company that does this, but unfortunatley there is a catch. You also have to buy a copy of Windows XP with your system, whether you plan to use it or not. Toshiba claim that it is to maintain compatibility with their systems, because all of their hardware is certified to work with Windows XP. They do have a point, all of their hardware works with XP, but the REAL reason is because of $$$$.

Unfortunatley MS has a monopoly with all the major vendors. What I believe that truth is that companies like Dell, IBM, and Toshiba get massive discounts if they sell all of their PC's with a copy of Windows XP, if they sell a line of PC's with Linux only, then MS will raise the price that they pay for copies of Windows on other PC's.

It doesnt mean that Linux will not make it in the consumer market. If demand for Linux increases then other companies will spend the $$$ on preloading Linux (as the exclusive OS). But there must be the demand first. People need to be made aware that Linux exists, because unfortunatley at the moment general consumers dont know why Linux is.

But awareness isnt enough either. LINUX NEEDS TO STANDARDISE. Its the major failing point of Open Source. M$ is a corperation, they develop their code themselves, and they develop that code to ONE STANDARD (in most cases). The Windows operating system has a consistant feel to it. Its easy to install programs. The file system isnt an absolute nightmare to understand. There is ONE desktop environment. Everything has polish to it. Easy configuration tools. I could go on and on.

Compare that to Linux. Several desktop environments. Some distros have good configuration tools, but they are usually buggy, and im most cases are not easy to understand. Installing can be a hassle with dependencies, etc. Many standards means conflicts in hardware and software. Since all the GUI's use different themes, it gives the whole operating system a "rough around the edges" feel. And I could go on and on.

I'm not completely bagging Linux. I like Linux, Linux IS a great OS. Unfortunatley it takes a geek to get it running properly. If I was an average non computer literate Joe (the type of customer that these giants are aimed towards) I would be completely mad to choose Linux over Windows. Why the heck would I buy somthing that I need to be computer literate to use when I could have Windows which is almost completely ready to use straight out the box?

Linux can change. Better tools can be developed. Lindows has shown us this. It is a good attempt at creating a friendly Linux OS. It isnt perfect but its a start. Its what Linux needs to make it in the consumer market. BUT... here comes the irony, "LINDOWS IS CRAP!!!!" that's what you hear Linux fans yell all the time! LINDOWS IS DE-FACING LINUX!! DOWN WITH LINDOWS!!!

So these Linux fans hate Lindows, YET these people also want Linux to make it in the consumer scene. Does that make sense? Lets trash the Linux distrubution that is actually trying to make Linux make it.

Unfortunately console configuration scripts, compiling, many graphical environments and the like will not make it in the consumer scene.

Anyways Ive gone on long enough. This was goign to be a simple 2 sentence post (so much for that). I went overboard and pretty much typed what i was thinking as i was thinking it.

In a nutshell my point is: MS does have a monoploy, MS has a lot of pull with PC vendors. MS can be beaten by Linux. For this to happen Linux must be dumbed down for the average Joe who knows nothing. If it isnt, then Linux will never make it mainstream, because people wont take to time to learn a complicated OS when they only want to surf the net, check email and play solitare. Its not about petitioning vendors to sell Linux, there is no money in that. Demand for Linux has to be created by awareness and fixing the OS. When demand goes up, then vendors will consider because they can make $$$ from it.

Edited by Jelly2003
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Here is a classic example of what I am trying to say... we have a link to a Lindows site with a sick face after it.

By this I assume that NewsGeek wants Linux to succeed mainstream but the only distro that has attempted to do it properly seems to make him/her feel sick.

EDIT: I only assume this, sorry if it is untrue Newsgeek, but it was a great way to try and get a point across.

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about common desktop: Ximian desktop 2 runs on every major linux. Its easy enough and every distro looks the same, has configuration tools and feels even dumber than windows. Thats why I use kde which is simple and also powerfull. KDE also looks the same on every distro. You can consider existance of 2 OSes: GNOMElinux and KDElinux in one pack.

Anyway installation of winxp for sb is also a nightmare; my mother feels more familiar with linux as far as kde is localised (ms localisation is awfull - i don't even understand half of these words). Moreover linux is virus and crash proof. Thats the main point. [personally i use debian. It would be pain in ass for billy gat...] on the other hand i tried fedora (just to find out what it is). It autodetected everything and installed without any errors in a casual way. It was much easier to install fedora than winxp. And actually i didnot need any linux related knowledge how to use it. unless user lacks common sense and doesn't understand word save/open/exit he could use fedora like windows. Suse is a leader and it should do even better. and believe me single-click-install linuxes would never prevail because they dont offer the CHOICE. Ideal linux should ask if you'd like to do a single-click action or make it yourself. Thats the point what lindows lacks. after it is installed I can upgrade it upto debian unstable easily so lindows isnot that useless.

what i wanted to say: yes will be buying a laptop this year. and i would highly prefer to buy from hp/dell/ibm to ensure every component WILL run. and as you understood i don't want to pay $$$$ for windoze I wouldnt use since i dont need it.

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You seem to be wanting Xandros, I want slackware. Each to their own.

no xandros nor slackware. lets standartise and use suse. I would otherwise choose gentoo but if i'm right compilling isnot healthy for laptops. Debian and derivatives runs very slow (now i use debian) and does not have config tools. xandros might be different in that poin of view but its updated very rarely. linux is highly under development and monthly updates are crucial.

can compilling hurt a laptop? [overheatings, etxc] if not, perhaps i would run gentoo.

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Ximian are very good, I havent been able to try their products due to diffuculity installing onto RH 9.0 and Mandrake (what I use currently is yet to be supported). Only prob is that since Ximan is now owned by Novel it wont be long before all Ximian products become fully commercial. Thats definatley not obeying the principals of Linux.

Again I only assume this, but lets face it, when a company buys out another company they always have these sort of plans in mind. It happens all the time.

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I think we'll see it offered on mainstream laptops soon enough... But I'm sure you'll end up with each hardware vendor with a different Linux version (like perhaps IBM with SUSE?).

My Compaq Evo N610c at work runs linux just fine, but I'm sure Compaq doesn't want to support linux users much, as they'll have to deal with people who tweak and update their OS in way more ways than the average Windows user. Ok, I ranted a bit, but I'd not mind some mainstream support in this area. :)

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Daugirdas, if you are going to be buying a laptop, I'd say the best bet is to do some research on the components your laptop will contain to make sure they are Linux-compatible, and then just install it yourself. Regardless of what company you buy from, just read the warranty to determine if installing a different OS will void the warranty.

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They do have a point, all of their hardware works with XP, but the REAL reason is because of $$$$.
That's because they've already paid for the license. Whether they can sell t or not it costs the money, So yeah it has to do with $$$.
What I believe that truth is that companies like Dell, IBM, and Toshiba get massive discounts if they sell all of their PC's with a copy of Windows XP, if they sell a line of PC's with Linux only, then MS will raise the price that they pay for copies of Windows on other PC's.

This is a violation of the MS/DOJ settlement. Microsoft must maintain discounts across the board.

If demand for Linux increases then other companies will spend the $$$ on preloading Linux (as the exclusive OS). But there must be the demand first.
This was Dell's reasoning for pulling out of the GNU/Linux desktop market. Not enough demand. Dell will sell you a Linux desktop (select models only). You get a choice of Windows 2000, RH8 or RHE WS.
Lets trash the Linux distrubution that is actually trying to make Linux make it.

Time to return to the present. It isn't the "let's dumb down GNU/Linux" approach people don't like about LindowsOS. It's the company's practices, ethics, violations, and its development silliness:

1. CNR -- removing apt, renaming apps, filler apps (Camino is for MacOS, see filler apps)

2. Claiming partnerships with companies or firsts (Netscape and AIM)

3. GPL and other license violations

4. Took practically 4 major versions before the successfully cleared up the whole "run as root" issue.

For this to happen Linux must be dumbed down for the average Joe who knows nothing.

You don't need to dumb down GNU/Linux and you don't need a one way to do everything mentality when approaching the issue. Just make the interaction easier and package the tools people need. Many distros are heading in that direction. Unfortuantely there dealing with different aspects at different times (UI, installation, administration, software packages, etc.)

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