To 4K or not? (Hyper-V)

[sinetheo]

I just bought a nice IPS 4K screen from Amazon to replace my horrible Asus gaming monitor. After I purchased it I came to the horror of my use case on my workstation. My main uses are web browsing, light MMO gaming, and running Hyper-V labs for my MCSE and personal development. 

 

All my virtual machines outside of Windows 8 & Server 2012 R2 run at 1368 x 720 due to the limitations of the guest services. This is problematic as I won't be able to see them at 4K. I found this here if I want to stick with Windows 10, but the comments below show it as making the situation worse! Basically it will blur and lock out custom DPI settings and it is useless for Linux based virtual machines.

 

I am thinking of cancelling my order.

 

What are the gotchas for 4K users? Is it worth upgrading? Also, has anyone successful ran Hyper-V with a 4K screen? Is this doable?

 

Thanks

[Jason S. Global Moderator]

is this a Linux limitation or Hyper-V limitation?

[sinetheo]

13 minutes ago, Jason S. said:

is this a Linux limitation or Hyper-V limitation?

Hyper-V, but I am also inquiring about people who use other software on Windows who own 4K screens? 

[+Biscuits Brown MVC]

Well, first off, my eyes are not young eyes anymore so my experience may not be yours. I tried a 4K monitor for about 2 weeks. I'm not a gamer nor do I  watch movies (or other 4K content) on my PC. I found the 4K display to be useless. Everything was way too small. Sure, I can scale things up by changing the DPI (and dealing with the side affects of that) but if I'm doing that, why get the 4K screen in the first place?   My usage just didn't warrant the high resolution. YMMV.

[sinetheo]

6 minutes ago, Zag L. said:

Well, first off, my eyes are not young eyes anymore so my experience may not be yours. I tried a 4K monitor for about 2 weeks. I'm not a gamer nor do I  watch movies (or other 4K content) on my PC. I found the 4K display to be useless. Everything was way too small. Sure, I can scale things up by changing the DPI (and dealing with the side affects of that) but if I'm doing that, why get the 4K screen in the first place?   My usage just didn't warrant the high resolution. YMMV.

What version of Windows and how long ago? I am wondering if more applications support 4K natively now so things won't be so small?

[PGHammer]

7 minutes ago, Zag L. said:

Well, first off, my eyes are not young eyes anymore so my experience may not be yours. I tried a 4K monitor for about 2 weeks. I'm not a gamer nor do I  watch movies (or other 4K content) on my PC. I found the 4K display to be useless. Everything was way too small. Sure, I can scale things up by changing the DPI (and dealing with the side affects of that) but if I'm doing that, why get the 4K screen in the first place?   My usage just didn't warrant the high resolution. YMMV.

That is, in fact, the realization I initially ran into merely at 1080p and 23" (being astigmatic does NOT help) - and that is just Web browsing and working with Office apps (Word and Outlook in particular) - and that was back in 2009!  While 4K has uses in gaming (and watching videos), if you do other stuff as often or more, there WILL be gotchas; will you be, in fact, willing to put up with them?  That is why I STRONGLY suggest you go to a big-box retailer just to check out 4K displays (notice I'm not suggesting you buy one there - especially if you are, or have access to, Amazon Prime membership; the bennies in terms of price and shipping are way too useful).

[episode]

21 minutes ago, sinetheo said:

Hyper-V, but I am also inquiring about people who use other software on Windows who own 4K screens? 

That resolution is not a limit of Hyper-V.

[Jason S. Global Moderator]

4 minutes ago, episode said:

That resolution is not a limit of Hyper-V.

if that's the case i find it hard to believe that Linux doesnt support 4k resolution...

[episode]

Just now, Jason S. said:

if that's the case i find it hard to believe that Linux doesnt support 4k resolution...

I don't use Linux, but I doubt its a limitation there either. Misconfiguration is more likely.

[theefool]

I have no word on Hyper-V and 4k, but I know it works fine with vmware.

 

I'd look into getting a 42" 4k TV that supports (4:4:4).  I went this route and I have no issues with tiny text or tiny start menu.  Games don't have tiny menus, everything is great.

 

My gaming 27" 4k monitor was a bad experience (which I still use, until I replace it with another 42" tv).

 

 

[+Biscuits Brown MVC]

23 minutes ago, sinetheo said:

What version of Windows and how long ago? I am wondering if more applications support 4K natively now so things won't be so small?

This was on Windows 10. Once again, if an app or the OS has to scale up, what advantage is there? If you aren't using the display at the full resolution then what value is there in the monitor?

[sinetheo]

24 minutes ago, Zag L. said:

This was on Windows 10. Once again, if an app or the OS has to scale up, what advantage is there? If you aren't using the display at the full resolution then what value is there in the monitor?

Here is what I am thinking. I have dual monitors. One is about 10 years old and still works but is getting darker.

 

This is going to be about a 10 year investment and if I cancel the order and go 1K aka 1080P it will be quite dated by 2027. I may keep my order and just downscale to 1080P until time catches up with the OS & Applications. So one last question for 4K users? IS there any degradation in quality and blurriness if you downscale to 1080P? I know monitors last decade had terrible image problems if you were not at the native resolution.

 

Is that a problem with a 4K screen?

[adrynalyne]

1 hour ago, Jason S. said:

is this a Linux limitation or Hyper-V limitation?

I've got high dpi support with Hyper V VMs. You just don't use the Hyper V client to connect. RDP works better for it. You can even install remotefx if your host OS is new enough and get much improved video performance. 

[+Biscuits Brown MVC]

52 minutes ago, sinetheo said:

Here is what I am thinking. I have dual monitors. One is about 10 years old and still works but is getting darker.

 

This is going to be about a 10 year investment and if I cancel the order and go 1K aka 1080P it will be quite dated by 2027. I may keep my order and just downscale to 1080P until time catches up with the OS & Applications. So one last question for 4K users? IS there any degradation in quality and blurriness if you downscale to 1080P? I know monitors last decade had terrible image problems if you were not at the native resolution.

 

Is that a problem with a 4K screen?

Downgrading to 1080 shouldn't be too bad since its just about a 4:1 ratio - but to consider keeping a monitor for 10 years , don't think I'd ever want to make a purchase for any piece of tech expecting a lifespan that long. Why not just drop a few hundred bucks on a pair of 1080 (or 1440's) now and upgrade to 4K when its more likely you can use the resolution?

 

  

[sinetheo]

5 hours ago, Zag L. said:

Downgrading to 1080 shouldn't be too bad since its just about a 4:1 ratio - but to consider keeping a monitor for 10 years , don't think I'd ever want to make a purchase for any piece of tech expecting a lifespan that long. Why not just drop a few hundred bucks on a pair of 1080 (or 1440's) now and upgrade to 4K when its more likely you can use the resolution?

 

  

My 10 year old HP is just now looking a little dark. It still works. The only thing I will miss in 10 years is HDR+ but that is for bright screens and they give me headaches. A good IPS can last 10 years with great video quality so if I am going to throw money into it I want something that lasts longer. Let's hope the scaller doesn't have too much latency or visual issues

[sinetheo]

6 hours ago, adrynalyne said:

I've got high dpi support with Hyper V VMs. You just don't use the Hyper V client to connect. RDP works better for it. You can even install remotefx if your host OS is new enough and get much improved video performance. 

Thanks 

 

That is what I was wondering. While RDP works better I have 2 PfSense routers in Hyper-V separating me from the host so DNS won't work with the name of the pcs. Some are set for DHCP. Worse case scenario I will set my resolution to 1080P for my Fedora/pfSense Vm's. 

[adrynalyne]

1 minute ago, sinetheo said:

Thanks 

 

That is what I was wondering. While RDP works better I have 2 PfSense routers in Hyper-V separating me from the host so DNS won't work with the name of the pcs. Some are set for DHCP. Worse case scenario I will set my resolution to 1080P for my Fedora/pfSense Vm's. 

Mind you I've not tried it with 4K (just 1440p) but if you want me to, I can. Just let me know. 

[sinetheo]

On 1/26/2017 at 5:19 PM, Riva said:

Some win32 apps look very small on 4k screens but the creators update should fix that. I use it for gaming, hyper-v, coding, browsing and document authoring. I love how i get to see more code when i am coding on a 4k screen

Alright since this is Googled for people on the internet I will answer this.

 

No it is not 4K ready :-( 

 

Monitor going bye bye.

 

I am going to either return it or keep it until 2019 in a closet when it is time for me to upgrade my GPU which when Windows has caught up.

 

Riva, Hyper-V was terrible. I had to keep turning off Enchanced mode to prevent the guests from trying to scale and resolution changing is off by default. MMC is blury and fonts are screwed up to even launch Hyper-V. My eyes are not the best. I am 40 and wear glasses and I can't see anything without getting a headache. FreeBSD as a guest was a postage card and without XORG installed by default I can't see anything to compile it from the ports.

 

[sinetheo]

[... going on an anti MS ranT]

 

No in 2017 Windows 10 is still not 4K hi DPI ready yet. Ridiculous

 

No 4K is not 1080P compatible with 0 scaling issues either! I do not know who told me that. Just because it is a 1/4 scale doesn't mean fonts are blury and things get fuzzy. SQL Server doesn't work, Hyper-V the fix is worse than the problem and is not workable with the enhanced scaling, Samsung Magician isn't 4K ready, games get blurry as you downscale to anything less than 4K and no I do not have a budget for a $700 gpu graphics card at this time, worse Windows 10 scaling is broken on dual monitor setup.

 

So if I zoom in the 4K at 200% scaling the 1080P screen next to it gets blurry and is impacted even if that monitor is still set to 100 scaling. WTF. Scaling issues hit the 1080P screen even launched like Chrome will have a bizarre vertical scrollbar. This shows the OS is not ready for primetime nor is MMC and the fonts of the Onedrive app are still distorted some 1 1/2 years after that bug was reported in Windows 8.1. 

 

So I guess the Mac and cell phones are pulling forward ahead. This should not be hard as 2K and 4K are 1:1 and should be very easy to fix with a simple 400% zoom when launched without a manifest. 

[+mram Subscriber²]

On 1/26/2017 at 6:05 AM, sinetheo said:

What are the gotchas for 4K users? Is it worth upgrading? Also, has anyone successful ran Hyper-V with a 4K screen? Is this doable?

The Creators Update for Windows 10 has some fantastic changes in this space where VMConnect.exe now scales to desktop resolution.  

Reference: https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2017/01/27/announcing-windows-10-insider-preview-build-15019-pc/#brc2jax9Wg46Vovk.97

 

I've tested this as best as I can, VM within a VM within a VM, but that has limits.  Looks extremely promising for what you're needing.  RDP doesn't work for my needs either, so I'm desperately looking forward to this.  I do have Hyper-V enabled on my machine with a 4k monitor.  

 

Other apps are great.  I don't have any regrets, or blurriness.

 

[T3X4S]

Something to consider:

Everyone knows Windows, even Win10 has scaling issues, so - how would it not be an issue when its virtualized ?

However, is there something you are doing on your VMs which require higher res, or is it just the fact that things are too small ?


Another problem I have run into is screen sharing  or remoting into other machines.  If they are on a laptop, and need to view what is on my computer (for instance a KT session I am doing via Skype) my screen on their computer is insanely small.

This will continue to be a problem until the norm is at least 1440p IMO.



Any system is only as good as its weakest link.

[sinetheo]

37 minutes ago, T3X4S said:

Something to consider:

Everyone knows Windows, even Win10 has scaling issues, so - how would it not be an issue when its virtualized ?

However, is there something you are doing on your VMs which require higher res, or is it just the fact that things are too small ?


Another problem I have run into is screen sharing  or remoting into other machines.  If they are on a laptop, and need to view what is on my computer (for instance a KT session I am doing via Skype) my screen on their computer is insanely small.

This will continue to be a problem until the norm is at least 1440p IMO.



Any system is only as good as its weakest link.

MS tried to fix the scaling issue with the anniversary update is what happened by zooming things in. So the Window of the remote connect is the right sized but the VM inside it is now too small and there is no way to adjust the resolution. 

 

ALso under a FreeBSD or Linux guest you are right I can not read the text and without X configured for FreeBSD, CentOS, or LampStack Linux there is no way I can even turn it on as I can't see any commands to install it. 

 

Anyway this is going to be boxed back up and sent back after work tomorrow. I hate my crappy 1080P screen but at least everything works. Too many blury items and my 2nd monitor is a 1080P which gets blury and scaling problems too as Windows 10 gets confused which monitor is which ... face palm. Yes I really did make sure 100% scaling was set to my 2nd 108-P screen. Word becomes a blur fest on the 2nd monitor still. 

 

In 2017 this should have been freaking fixed. Hell, MS sells a Surfacebook with 4K for crying out loud and at least 2K has been here since 2012. 5 years. It is a reasonable expectation to plug in a 4K monitor and have it work by default with no hacks, bugs, or tricks. Come on man even a phone has no problems with this. Part of me feels MS is doing this on purpose to encourage UWP apps and apis to developers. pfft

[sinetheo]

1 hour ago, mram said:

The Creators Update for Windows 10 has some fantastic changes in this space where VMConnect.exe now scales to desktop resolution.  

Reference: https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2017/01/27/announcing-windows-10-insider-preview-build-15019-pc/#brc2jax9Wg46Vovk.97

 

I've tested this as best as I can, VM within a VM within a VM, but that has limits.  Looks extremely promising for what you're needing.  RDP doesn't work for my needs either, so I'm desperately looking forward to this.  I do have Hyper-V enabled on my machine with a 4k monitor.  

 

Other apps are great.  I don't have any regrets, or blurriness.

 

How can you not?? DO you have a 50 inch screen or something? I bought an LG and it's scaller back down to 1080P and 2K is not good. Perhaps this is why I am having so many issues

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

On 27/01/2017 at 1:12 AM, Zag L. said:

This was on Windows 10. Once again, if an app or the OS has to scale up, what advantage is there? If you aren't using the display at the full resolution then what value is there in the monitor?

Unless you're running it at 1920x1080 or something then you are running it at the native resolution.

 

I've got a 24" 4K monitor that I'm running at 200% UI scale, and it adds so much fine detail to text and images (Assuming sites actually use the high res variants). It also gives me freedom to run the system at other scale factors like 175% or 150% in case I want UI elements to be smaller, something I can't do if I had a plain 1920x1080 monitor.

[+mram Subscriber²]

8 hours ago, sinetheo said:

How can you not?? DO you have a 50 inch screen or something? I bought an LG and it's scaller back down to 1080P and 2K is not good. Perhaps this is why I am having so many issues

Samsung U28D590 running at 3840x2160 (native)

I scale the resolution to 150% in windows.  I think Windows does it by default...

 

And yes, never had a problem, except Hyper-V ironically, and only when dealing with VMConnect.  That's why the Creators update is exciting.

 

While it sounds like a huge way off, Creators update is pegged for April, so I would still recommend a 4k investment.  Sweet monitors.  Bear in mind you're looking at a HyperV problem vs a native problem; they are separate things.  In Windows itself, natively, there's no issue with 4k at all that I know of.  I would highly recommend it.  There are great reasons why VMConnect lagged behind, and RDP is a fair workaround at present.

 

 

7 hours ago, The_Decryptor said:

Unless you're running it at 1920x1080 or something then you are running it at the native resolution.

 

I've got a 24" 4K monitor that I'm running at 200% UI scale, and it adds so much fine detail to text and images (Assuming sites actually use the high res variants). It also gives me freedom to run the system at other scale factors like 175% or 150% in case I want UI elements to be smaller, something I can't do if I had a plain 1920x1080 monitor.

That reminds me, that I do specifically run fullscreen games at half resolution (1920x1080) because the quality is still great but it saves on processing a ton.