ANova Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 Public outcry doesn't matter, what matters is the facts. If you are referring to the slight optimizations ATI made to Quake 3 then I think you need a better example. Valve did indeed see the driver release nvidia wanted them to use. Which shows how very little you know on the matter. Of course Valve never saw the Forceware drivers as at the time they weren't even half completed. Yeah, I know nothing of coding. I've taken a C++ course. A simple delay in the time the file is dumped, say 1 ms, is all one needs to increase that scene's details. I never said it didn't slow down the game either. And considering the video card's drivers are what handle how these scenes are rendered and at what time leaves it open for the possibility. Rolls Royce is a car company, BMW is a car company. Based off your logic, mechanics should not work upon Rolls Royce's because the owner made an "uneducated purchase". This makes no sense at all. If your implying that Rolls Royces are harder to work on then BMWs your claim has no validity to this argument. Both cars are fine machines whether or not one is easier to fix then the other. I also find it interesting how you ignored everything else I said. At this point in time it is apparent you are a fanboy as you have chosen to get hostile and have done nothing to counterpoint any of my responses. I don't think i'll continue this any longer with you. And just because you have a Geforce 4 doesn't mean you know everything about the Geforce FX. They are both very different cards with very different technology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kioria Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 Stop bloddy argueing and help him solve the problem. I had this problem with my Ti 4200 before I changed to 9600 XT. Might be your drivers or dx9.0b and WQHL drivers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chode Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 If you are referring to the slight optimizations ATI made to Quake 3 then I think you need a better example.I mean the fact that they intentionally coded their drivers to affect the outcome of specific benchmarking software, which they admitted to in an attempt to save face. Valve did indeed see the driver release nvidia wanted them to use. Which shows how very little you know on the matter. Of course Valve never saw the Forceware drivers as at the time they weren't even half completed. The drivers NVIDIA offered them WERE THE FORCEWARE generation (although at the time the public had not been let in on the Forceware title). NVIDIA v50.xx = Forceware. The drivers were only about 3 weeks from completion, and even after the public release when certain journalistic bodies were given a hands on benchmarking experience with a build of HL2 VALVE specifically forbid them from using the 50.xx series of drivers. You are right, VALVE never saw the forceware drivers. That is the whole point. simple delay in the time the file is dumped, say 1 ms, is all one needs to increase that scene's details. I never said it didn't slow down the game either. And considering the video card's drivers are what handle how these scenes are rendered and at what time leaves it open for the possibility.But to cheat the screenshot function first the coder for the drivers would need to capture all keyboard input, and at that time no one knew which button would be used for screenshots (in theory, and of the keys could be it). It would then need to pass the value back into the games engine. This is an impossibility due to the fact that they are GRAPHICS DRIVERS. They parse 2D/3D graphical information to pass it to the hardware so that it can be fed back to the software. To enable the graphics drivers to do this would require the complete reverse engineering of the whole DirectX interface so that Direct3D would overtake the functions of DirectInput (aka, bullcrap).If your implying that Rolls Royces are harder to work on then BMWs your claim has no validity to this argument. Both cars are fine machines whether or not one is easier to fix then the other. Hooray, it can learn. Since you misunderstood personification, I will point it out: Rolls Royce = NVIDIA BMW = ATI At this point in time it is apparent you are a fanboy as you have chosen to get hostile and have done nothing to counterpoint any of my responses. I don't think i'll continue this any longer with you. And just because you have a Geforce 4 doesn't mean you know everything about the Geforce FX. They are both very different cards with very different technology. I am not a fanboy, merely an avid user of 3D graphics in the games/film industry. I do not believe I am "get[ting] hostile", but if you are seeing hostility perhaps you are experiencing nervousness? Also an avid sign of nervousness, refusing to continue. Following your logic, you are in no position to evaluate NVIDIA cards because you own an ATI. You see, "they are both very different cards with very different technology". :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANova Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 (edited) I mean the fact that they intentionally coded their drivers to affect the outcome of specific benchmarking software, which they admitted to in an attempt to save face.They may have done it but they had good intentions in mind. And it wasn't really needed as their cards are fast enough without any optimizations, in fact what did they only improved performnce by about 2-4%. And they promptly removed the code afterwards. None of which can be said for nvidia.The drivers NVIDIA offered them WERE THE FORCEWARE generation (although at the time the public had not been let in on the Forceware title). NVIDIA v50.xx = Forceware. The drivers were only about 3 weeks from completion, and even after the public release when certain journalistic bodies were given a hands on benchmarking experience with a build of HL2 VALVE specifically forbid them from using the 50.xx series of drivers.You are right, VALVE never saw the forceware drivers. That is the whole point. Alright, we were both incorrect about them not getting the forceware drivers. As they did in fact get them. They just refused to use them. From Anandtech, "NVIDIA does have a new driver release on the horizon, the Detonator 50 series of drivers. However, Valve instructed us not to use these drivers as they do not render fog in Half-Life 2. In fact, Valve was quite insistent that we only used publicly available drivers on publicly available hardware, which is a reason you won't see Half-Life 2 benchmarks in our upcoming Athlon 64 review." There's your fog proof. Gabe also warned of the following, "I guess I am encouraging skepticism about future driver performance." I wonder why he would say that? Oh, maybe it's because you should be skeptical. :rolleyes: "Working closely with NVIDIA (according to Gabe), Valve ended up developing a special codepath for NVIDIA's NV3x architecture that made some tradeoffs in order to improve performance on NVIDIA's FX cards. The tradeoffs, as explained by Gabe, were mainly in using 16-bit precision instead of 32-bit precision for certain floats and defaulting to Pixel Shader 1.4 (DX8.1) shaders instead of newer Pixel Shader 2.0 (DX9) shaders in certain cases. Valve refers to this new NV3x code path as a "mixed mode" of operation, as it is a mixture of full precision (32-bit) and partial precision (16-bit) floats as well as pixel shader 2.0 and 1.4 shader code. There's clearly a visual tradeoff made here, which we will get to shortly, but the tradeoff was necessary in order to improve performance." Everything said here has been confirmed multiple times by sources other then Gabe might I add. Here are some various problems found with the 4x detonator drivers as well. - Camera path-specific occlusion culling - Visual quality tradeoffs (e.g. lowered filtering quality, disabling fog) - Screen-grab specific image rendering - Lower rendering precision - Algorithmic detection and replacement - Scene-specific handling of z writes - Benchmark-specific drivers that never ship - App-specific and version specific optimizations that are very fragile Are you going to refute all of this proof without giving any good reason, proving you are an obvious fanboy? But to cheat the screenshot function first the coder for the drivers would need to capture all keyboard input, and at that time no one knew which button would be used for screenshots (in theory, and of the keys could be it). It would then need to pass the value back into the games engine. This is an impossibility due to the fact that they are GRAPHICS DRIVERS. They parse 2D/3D graphical information to pass it to the hardware so that it can be fed back to the software. To enable the graphics drivers to do this would require the complete reverse engineering of the whole DirectX interface so that Direct3D would overtake the functions of DirectInput (aka, bullcrap).You underestimate the capabilities of nvidia's driver team.Hooray, it can learn. Since you misunderstood personification, I will point it out:Rolls Royce = NVIDIA BMW = ATI You obviously misunderstood my inital analogy as this still makes no sense. In fact I would say it's exactly the opposite, with Rolls Royce being ATI and BMW being nvidia. Since BMW is more widespread. If a fan buys a companies product taking that companies word for how good the product is and later finds out from another source that the product isn't good, according to you the fan has the right to blaim the source for showing them the light. They would rather be ignorant to the situation. This is the definition of Ignorance is bliss. I think you fall into this catagory. Following your logic, you are in no position to evaluate NVIDIA cards because you own an ATI. You see, "they are both very different cards with very different technology". Again you missed my point. I think you are defending nvidia just because you have a geforce 4 and happen to like it. Yet you have not countered any of my claims except by avoiding the facts and making false claims. Edited January 25, 2004 by ANova Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chode Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 Ok, you are obviously a fanboy yourself. You have denegrated into insulting me instead of offering a complete decent arguments. Yes, special development needed to happen with HL2, which anyone could tell you is because NVIDIA was not part the previous stages of development. VALVE were trying to treat an NVIDIA like an ATI, which is like trying to treat an AMD as an INTEL. The fog was in a beta driver the public was not meant to see. All you have done is find the exact quote by Gabe which I mentioned about 2 pages ago but you forgot (conveniently). Oh, and I wasn't incorrect, but I'm glad I managed to enlighten you somewhat. And the fact that you are still digging conspiracy theories on NVIDIA makes you hopeless. Why do you continually tell me I have a GeForce 4? I know I have a GeForce 4, you may remember I'm the one who told you that. I am defending NVIDIA because a-holes like Gabe Nawell give a bad name to a good company. I am done with talking to you, for you are offering the worst structuring of arguments, and have denegrated into insults and personal attacks instead of friendly debate. I am no longer looking at this thread, so argue with yourself as much as you like. Oh yeah, and go to hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANova Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 Ahaha. Me resulting to insults towards you? All I said was you were a fanboy, which is quite obvious. Especially considering you hate Valve and HL2 just because they support ATI. And no, I am not a fanboy because I actually research into the quality of products before I buy them. If nvidia's next card should happen to be better then ATI's I will get that; which is surely more then I can say for you. Instead of offering complete and decent arguments? I listed all of the reasons, such as the list of optimizations in the driver set. And no, the driver they used were not beta drivers, "Valve was quite insistent that we only used publicly available drivers on publicly available hardware". VALVE were trying to treat an NVIDIA like an ATI, which is like trying to treat an AMD as an INTEL.Wow, i'm speechless. Your honestly one of the most ignorant people i've ever run into. Valve tried running their game without any special coding on both cards. And surprise the ATI performed much better. This is not because Valve developed their game around ATI, this is because nvidia's FX are not dx9 compliant, the code that HL2 uses! Which has been my point wroughout this entire affair and which you have chosen to ignore.LOL, and Gabe is an ahole because he supposedly alienated fanboys such as yourself by telling everyone the truth? Your the ahole my friend. Oh yeah, and go to hell. You first. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nekrosoft13 Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 how about you two writing a book on this not to many people gonna read 4 paragraph replys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANova Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 how about you two writing a book on thisnot to many people gonna read 4 paragraph replys That's to their detriment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimplyPotatoes Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 anova and chode i feel for you guys.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chode Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 anova and chode i feel for you guys.... Geez, thanks Potatoes....I secretly feel for you too :wub: Lol, j/k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts