Deaths confirmed after Manchester Arena blast reports


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Unobscured Vision

I am a Veteran. I served in the Armed Forces. I've seen the ugliness of the Middle East. I have witness the unmitigated cruelty of Islamic Law, at a Familial level. I saw a father treat his daughter as if she were livestock simply because she was female; and this same man attempt to sell her to one of the guys in my Unit. "She will make a good American wife", he said. "You buy her, yes? Five thousand American dollars." I was disgusted that this man held such little regard for his daughter, who couldn't have been more than sixteen -- and he wanted to sell her. She didn't know what was going on. She couldn't say no. His WIFE couldn't protest either. It was against their laws that she speak up against her husband. The "Religious Police" would have beaten her with canes if she did. This bearded jackwagon was selling his daughter, and we were NOT allowed to do anything to stop it or interfere with it other than decline the man's ... "business". If she even WAS his daughter. My first impulse, consequences be damned, was to annihilate this pile of garbage where he stood. But I didn't, to my credit. I stood there, shaking with rage, ready to smash this prick to a pulp because he was SO wrong on SO many levels of humanity. What I was witnessing was INHUMAN. It affected me forever, I wasn't the same after that. I was the "live and let live" type before then.

 

This was something that took place before my very eyes. We were only allowed to politely decline so that we didn't offend them or their culture. We were their guests, in their country -- or at least that's what we were told during the Briefing when we landed.

 

And I'm sorry, really sorry, that I lash out against Muslims like I do. I tell the above story so that I can be better understood about why I feel the way I feel concerning Terrorism and people from the Middle East and Northern Africa. I'm sure that the majority of Muslims are peaceful and abhor Terrorism and the selling of daughters like the rest of us do ... but I've seen the negative aspects of the culture firsthand. :( Does that make me racist? Because I think that selling daughters to the highest bidder and beating wives half to death when they speak their minds is completely mental?!

 

All I ask is for understanding and patience. I don't hate Muslims. I don't hate Islam either. I hate what that culture allows. 

 

 

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DocM

And many of those practices pre-date Islam by millennia, which makes it even more fracked up.

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Sjokkel
20 hours ago, Legendary said:

There were videos of people partying on the streets celebrating after 9-11 (in Pakistan I think) and burning US flags. These were proven to be FAKE NEWS. Someone found the original video, and that proved that it was taken many years earlier and edited to scandalise Muslims. I suspect many of the videos of people partying on the streets about this news (or Brussels) were also the same.

I'm not talking about videos. I've seen it with my own eyes. People were partying in the streets, driving their cars and honking their horns while i was driving to my office. I didn't hear the news yet and at first i thought Turkey or Marocco had won some football game. It was when my sister called me with the news i knew what the partying was all about.

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+Dick Montage
16 hours ago, Euphoria said:

So sad to see this happening in London.. i have a lot friends there, and fortunately none of them were harmed...

Manchester isn't in London!

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Skiver
27 minutes ago, Nefarious Trigger said:

Manchester isn't in London!

Wait, London doesn't cover England?! It's quite funny how some people from other countries can only relate London and England together. 

 

Secondly...

 

STEPS AND LITTLE MIX !?! 

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+Dick Montage
2 minutes ago, Skiver said:

Wait, London doesn't cover England?! It's quite funny how some people from other countries can only relate London and England together. 

 

Secondly...

 

STEPS AND LITTLE MIX !?! 

My cheesy pop mix?  Was put together for a specific party who were into that.

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Skiver
1 minute ago, Nefarious Trigger said:

My cheesy pop mix?  Was put together for a specific party who were into that.

Yeah, I just spotted it so thought I'd give it a try and was surprised to see those on the track list. It'll probably take me the entire day to listen to it but I'll let you know what I think once I'm done :D

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FloatingFatMan
2 hours ago, DocM said:

And many of those practices pre-date Islam by millennia, which makes it even more fracked up.

Oh absolutely. But so many of those ancient practices are so deeply ingrained into the religion itself now, that it's become impossible to tell them apart. They are effectively a part of that religion and cannot be separated. 

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Legendary
3 hours ago, Sjokkel said:

I'm not talking about videos. I've seen it with my own eyes. People were partying in the streets, driving their cars and honking their horns while i was driving to my office. I didn't hear the news yet and at first i thought Turkey or Marocco had won some football game. It was when my sister called me with the news i knew what the partying was all about.

None of this happened in my area (3-4 miles from the arena). Maybe the people were partying about something else and hadn't heard the news yet either. Where was this?

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Legendary
44 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

Oh absolutely. But so many of those ancient practices are so deeply ingrained into the religion itself now, that it's become impossible to tell them apart. They are effectively a part of that religion and cannot be separated. 

Many of the practices Unobscured Vision mentioned aren't ingrained in Islam, but they might become ingrained in certain cultures. Religion also gets ingrained in culture, and sometimes it hard to separate the 2. Some people even think the 2 are one.

 

Most of the things Unobscured Vision mentioned (selling daughters, beating wives, etc) were cultural values in Pre-Islamic Arabia (and maybe other parts of the world). Islam was to abolish these practices, but its sad to see that some of it still exists today.

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+Dick Montage
3 hours ago, Sjokkel said:

I'm not talking about videos. I've seen it with my own eyes. People were partying in the streets, driving their cars and honking their horns while i was driving to my office. I didn't hear the news yet and at first i thought Turkey or Marocco had won some football game. It was when my sister called me with the news i knew what the partying was all about.

So wait, let me clear up a little confusion here... You are stating that you saw people partying about a bomb blast at the Manchester Arena where children were murdered?

 

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HellboundIRL
14 hours ago, J. X. Maxwell said:

I am a simple man. I see a Muslim kill 50 homosexuals, I vote Trump. We need more simple men in France and UK.

Simple people are the problem, not the solution.

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+Red King
7 hours ago, Mockingbird said:

There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world.

 

You don't have to agree with them, but do you really want 1.6 billion people as your enemies?

 

That's a lot of enemies.

No need to make enemies with all of them. Jus the ones your politicians let in.

Close the borders, make them feel unwelcome, kick them out, and sink their ships.

 

1 minute ago, HellboundIRL said:

Simple people are the problem, not the solution.

Yet for some reason simple people are the only ones that care. This terror attack will be forgotten in weeks. It won't influence any election result.

Just look at France for confirmation - hundreds of people dead, countless terror attacks, revenue lost because Asians won't visit. Impact on people views of immigrants and election result? None.

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domboy
7 hours ago, FloatingFatMan said:

Completely understandable.  If you didn't react emotionally to something like this, you wouldn't care about it.  All you're doing is showing you care, and that's a good thing.  What's also a good thing is that justice takes time. This is essential as it removes the emotion from the case and allows us to deal with the guilty in a fair and just manner, without emotions getting in the way.

 

That said, I've read the Qu'ran, and overall, it's a hateful book, full of violence against anyone not a Muslim (ie, the guilty. You're only innocent if you're Muslim).  Thankfully, MOST Muslims don't follow those parts to the letter and are generally nice people.  It's such a shame that those intent on evil are so good at taking those darker passages and convincing people that's what they must do.

 

That's what I don't get about Islam. The extremists like this Manchester bomber are actually the devote aka "good" Muslims as they practice the violence in their holy book. Seems one has to be a bad/liberal (so to speak) Muslim to be a decent human being... seems like there is something innately backwards with that picture.

 

I hear more and more (at least on my side of the pond)  talk about Islamophobia whenever somebody says something bad about Islam. Sorry, but those young people didn't just die from an irrational fear of Islam. They were kill by a very devout Muslim that was willing to die for a cause he believed in. I'm not irrationally afraid of that. But I am seriously angry about it. If the Muslim faith isn't really like that at its core then the religion as a whole needs to pull together and get rid of the evil in their midst, before we really do end up with another holy war, which is what it seems groups like ISIS want.

Edited by domboy
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Daedroth
1 hour ago, domboy said:

That's what I don't get about Islam. The extremists like this Manchester bomber are actually the devote aka "good" Muslims as they practice the violence in their holy book. Seems one has to be a bad/liberal (so to speak) Muslim to be a decent human being... seems like there is something innately backwards with that picture.

Christianity has had it's fair share of horrors over the course of history, and it is still going on today in some parts of the world. Included in that are those 'devote' followers, who see those who do not follow the religion as they do as 'bad/liberal'. However, just as with Christianity, the majority of the Muslim faith are peaceful and do not see themselves as 'bad/liberal' followers.

 

For example, I work in a Catholic school and due to the nature of the location and intake of the students, some 25% of the students on roll define their religion as Muslim. I have dealt with the students and parents directly and they do not see themselves as a 'bad/liberal' Muslim because they condone these types of attacks and hatred.

Edited by Daedroth
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The Evil Overlord
2 hours ago, J. X. Maxwell said:

No need to make enemies with all of them. Jus the ones your politicians let in.

Close the borders, make them feel unwelcome, kick them out, and sink their ships.

That IS how you make enemies with all of 'them' alienating 'them' is what these scumbags want, that escalation to rally every single one into one of 'them', to lead towards genocidal war, I can't see how 70million vs 1.6+billion is going to work out as positive for the 70million, and last time I checked, those allied member states would be alienated alongside and potentially align with 'them'. Not to mention the secret, non foreign looking members of 'them' that will remain behind undetected. Escalated beyond all control, it'd be a pincer attack, from without and within. And the 'let's nuke em' argument would ultimately be a downfall in 'their' favour, as some of 'them' have nukes as well.

Regardless who who wins THAT battle, 'they' would have won, as you played right into 'their' hands. And 'they' are really good at rallying people to 'their' propaganda.

I'm for eliminating the 'them' part of the problem, but there's no way I am a genius level operative, to work out the logistics of such an undertaking.

A better weapon would be education, promotion of forward thinking, a retraining of attitudes to teach others the laws, cultures, and socially acceptable standards of a foreign nation, and to abide by those laws and guidelines, to treat those guidelines as their own if they want to call the foreign land their home.

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FloatingFatMan
1 hour ago, domboy said:

If the Muslim faith isn't really like that at its core then the religion as a whole needs to pull together and get rid of the evil in their midst, before we really do end up with another holy war, which is what it seems groups like ISIS want.

You won't get a straight answer to that question.  Moderates will tell you that it's NOT Islam to do that at all, as will its defenders, and the so called "islamophobes" will tell you that's all Islam is, hate.  The truth is actually somewhere in between but you won't truly understand that until you do what I did and read the thing.

 

Of course, once you've done that, you'll then get its defenders telling you that you have to read it in the original Arabic, as the translated versions are lies...  The funny thing is, multiple different translations all agree on what most of the passages say...

 

It generally comes down to this.

 

Islam is a religion of peace, but only to those who follow its tenets. If you're not a Muslim, you're an infidel and therefore the enemy.

 

If you're the enemy, you have 2 options.  Convert or pay a tax to be left alone.

 

Then there's the hadiths, which are books about the sayings of Mohammad and his life, written by the people who followed him. Some of these are not accepted but most are.  The 2 different versions of Islam tend to follow different hadiths.  Technically these aren't officially part of Islam, but a "good" Muslim is supposed to emulate the prophet in all things.  

 

The thing is, by today's standards, the prophet was not a very nice man. He was a warlord, tribal chieftain, murderer, and liked little girls.  All things which were quite normal for medieval times, but certainly not any more!

 

Edited by FloatingFatMan
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TPreston
1 hour ago, J. X. Maxwell said:

No need to make enemies with all of them. Jus the ones your politicians let in.

Close the borders, make them feel unwelcome, kick them out, and sink their ships.

https://theintercept.com/2015/11/17/islamic-states-goal-eliminating-the-grayzone-of-coexistence-between-muslims-and-the-west/

 

You share the same goal as ISIS

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Mockingbird
1 hour ago, FloatingFatMan said:

You won't get a straight answer to that question.  Moderates will tell you that it's NOT Islam to do that at all, as will its defenders, and the so called "islamophobes" will tell you that's all Islam is, hate.  The truth is actually somewhere in between but you won't truly understand that until you do what I did and read the thing.

 

Of course, once you've done that, you'll then get its defenders telling you that you have to read it in the original Arabic, as the translated versions are lies...  The funny thing is, multiple different translations all agree on what most of the passages say...

 

It generally comes down to this.

 

Islam is a religion of peace, but only to those who follow its tenets. If you're not a Muslim, you're an infidel and therefore the enemy.

 

If you're the enemy, you have 2 options.  Convert or pay a tax to be left alone.

 

Then there's the hadiths, which are books about the sayings of Mohammad and his life, written by the people who followed him. Some of these are not accepted but most are.  The 2 different versions of Islam tend to follow different hadiths.  Technically these aren't officially part of Islam, but a "good" Muslim is supposed to emulate the prophet in all things.  

 

The thing is, by today's standards, the prophet was not a very nice man. He was a warlord, tribal chieftain, murderer, and liked little girls.  All things which were quite normal for medieval times, but certainly not any more!

 

One of the problem with ancient texts including the Qur'an and the Bible is that these texts were written in ancient times with very different social norms.

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FloatingFatMan
21 minutes ago, Mockingbird said:

One of the problem with ancient texts including the Qur'an and the Bible is that these texts were written in ancient times with very different social norms.

At least Christianity got with the times and modernised.  Islam is still firmly entrenched in the middle ages.

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Mockingbird
32 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

At least Christianity got with the times and modernised.  Islam is still firmly entrenched in the middle ages.

Well, I wouldn't lump together all the Christians nor all the Muslims.

 

Anyway, the problem with Islam is not so much the Qur'an as people's interpretation of it.

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hollowhan
On 5/23/2017 at 11:29 AM, xrobwx said:

The problem lies with variables and math. Neither side of the argument of "who did what", looks at ALL the variables or the math One of the main variables is the media and the way each one "leans" and distributes "facts". Then, the media consumer is another chaotic variable, in which there are no controls. Then, each consumer has a "lean" and distributes more "facts" with each one thinking their facts are absolute. = Chaos.

Murder, violence, brutality are wrong no matter what label you give it or who did it or for any reason they may give. IMO

If I followed every single tenant in the King James Bible, I'd be dead or in jail. You have to use use common sense even in the Mickey Mouse Club. 

 

My heart, mind and prayers go to the Families of the lost and hurt. 

Guys I just don't understand. Why are we forcing our beliefs on other people? Most moderate muslims don't care about Democracy. Most Native ppl don't give two you know what about technology but we labelled them barbaric and destroyed them. Why can't we let ppl live the way they want instead of enforcing our values on others? Why can't we let ppl evolve at their own pace and just mind our own business? Why do we have to throw everyone under the 'humanity' flag? Some ppl need time to get there. Just let them be. Forcing two different cultures to come under one umbrella isn't the way. People are different. It's okay to be different. Why can't we create some strict rules for people from different cultures. They are just different. No need to hate just control them in a respective way. If you can't control them, just give them visit visas. That's it. Keep them at bay. Make better tougher stronger immigration process. Just see what's happening in Canada right now. It's an fn joke.

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Daedroth

A number of arrests and searches have been made in surrounding areas of Manchester, even over in Merseyside, in my home town of St. Helens. Getting a bit close to home now. :|

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DocM

Get used to it; no place is safe. Period.

 

The jihadists can be radicalized anywhere there's an ISP or cell service via the web, and you cannot ban enough things to prevent attacks. Blades can be made from scrap metal and wood, and sharpened to a fine edge by a rock. Vehicles, of course. And you don't want to know how easy explosives or rudimentary but effective firearms are to make. "XXXXX Control" won't cut it. 

 

Be prepared to fight back when it happens, and it will happen. And please, stop the silly, politically correct hand wringing over what has to be done. The time for moral platitudes ended years ago. Before the first WTC bombing, Iraq 1 or Iraq 2. Even Beirut. We've had our blinders on, used half-measures, and our borders have been too open.

 

Now, get busy, meaning the West, the East and non-radicalized Muslims. Everyone has a stake in this, and it won't just go away. 

 

The alternative is watching your children and grandchildren be intimidated, enslaved, and very likely indiscriminately killed. 

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ThisSiteHasLostItsCharm

social media & youtube are a big problem in letting these groups communicate a share stuff, and let's face it, we got on fine before facebook, myspace, youtube, twitter etc and would get on fine if these services were shutdown or blocked by isp's.

 

youtube is only useful for checking out trailers but then there's always imdb and other movie sites.

these days it's just cluttered with dumb and annoying videos (reaction videos, box opening, what someone play a game with stuipd commentary, 10 things blah blah you must see to believe etc sooooo much garbage content, all went downhill when yt started letting people earn money from posting crap. 

 

twitter is just useless, most software developers use to provide support these days (or lack of support) when stuff used to be done via forums that worked.

then you have moron celebrities / people in politics / general public posting all sorts of useless stuff. do we really care what someone had for breakfast?

 

facebook is just a big waste of time you just end up with a list people you don't even know.

 

would solve a lot of problems with disturbing content being put online and dodgy groups using them, if these services were shutdown or blocked.

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