12 posts in this topic

I don't usually think about politics much although some percentage of what we call "politics" is actually "reality management" both in the real world things have to get done meaning and the propaganda meaning...

 

But today thi3 Neowin post caught my eye:

 

 

And as I started to think of the horrible tragedy and death caused by that conflict which is more related to autocrats than terrorism and a strange parallel popped into my mind of an equally autocratic act that could end up disrupting the lives of and maybe kill just as many people:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/15/us/politics/secrecy-surrounding-senate-health-bill-raises-alarms-in-both-parties.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fpolitics

 

Secrecy Surrounding Senate Health Bill Raises Alarms in Both Parties


 

Quote

 

“This massive piece of legislation that seeks to restructure one-sixth of our economy is being written behind closed doors, without input from anyone, in an effort to jam it past not only the Senate but the American people,”

 

Asked his level of comfort with the process, Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona, cut off a reporter before he could finish his sentence. “None,” he said.

 

 

If I understand correctly, they plan to RAM this instrument of death through to a vote in just weeks!

 

Am I missing something?

 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With the healthcare bill, deja-vu?  "We have to pass it to know what's in it" ring a bell?

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, jamwheat said:

With the healthcare bill, deja-vu?  "We have to pass it to know what's in it" ring a bell?

I noted that I don't follow politics very much so there is no bell ringing for me. If you could find an article, I would look through it.

 

I did however find this while wondering why people who make a "health" law that kills people in a democratic society don't seem to have any conscience or responsibility for it:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/14/us/flint-water-crisis-manslaughter.html

 

5 Charged With Involuntary Manslaughter in Flint Water Crisis

Quote

 

The latest charges reached farther than before into Michigan’s state government, affecting two cabinet-level officials in the administration of Gov. Rick Snyder and leaving open the possibility that the investigation would go higher still.

 

Nick Lyon, the director of the Michigan Department of Health and Human Services, was charged with involuntary manslaughter and misconduct in office, felonies that could lead to as much as 20 years in prison. Dr. Eden V. Wells, the chief medical executive for the department, was charged with obstruction of justice and lying to a peace officer, and could face up to seven years if convicted. They are among 15 current and former state and local officials facing criminal charges as a 17-month investigation into Flint’s tainted water supply continues.

 

 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, DevTech said:

I noted that I don't follow politics very much so there is no bell ringing for me. If you could find an article, I would look through it.

 

I did however find this while wondering why people who make a "health" law that kills people in a democratic society don't seem to have any conscience or responsibility for it:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/14/us/flint-water-crisis-manslaughter.html

 

5 Charged With Involuntary Manslaughter in Flint Water Crisis

 

Here's a YouTube link to her saying it (with what follows her statement):  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, jamwheat said:

Here's a YouTube link to her saying it (with what follows her statement):  

 

Thanks for the link.

 

I don't think it was right to rush through anything that important but from the original article I linked:


 

Quote

 

The Senate health committee approved its version in July 2009 after considering hundreds of amendments over 13 days. The Senate Finance Committee cleared its version in October 2009, after more than a year of hearings, round-table discussions and other spadework. A group of Democrats and Republicans from the Finance Committee had met for months behind closed doors, trying — but ultimately failing — to draft bipartisan legislation.

 

The full Senate passed the Affordable Care Act on Dec. 24, 2009, on the 25th consecutive day of floor debate.

 

While much of the Affordable Care Act was written in the open, some important provisions were hashed out in private, just before the Senate vote, by Senator Harry Reid, the Nevada Democrat who was then the majority leader.

 

Republicans complained bitterly at the time, and Democrats threw those complaints back at them this week.


 

 

 

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/6/16/15810524/senate-ahca-explain-please

 

We asked 8 Senate Republicans to explain what their health bill is trying to do


 

Quote

 

Senate Republicans can't answer simple and critical questions about the health care bill they're crafting in secret.

 

Some still can't say what it's trying to do — other than garner enough votes to pass the Senate — or how they believe it will improve the American health care system.

 

Read for yourself. Here are the transcripts of our eight interviews with Republican senators.

 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/19/opinion/republican-health-care-bill-tax-cuts.html

 

Zombies, Vampires and Republicans

Quote

 

Clearly, the goal is to pass legislation that will have devastating effects on tens of millions of Americans without giving those expected to pass it, let alone the general public, any real chance to understand what they’re voting for. There are even suggestions that Mitch McConnell, the Senate majority leader, might exploit loopholes in the rules to prevent any discussion on the Senate floor.

 

Why this combination of secrecy and speed? Obviously, this legislation can’t survive sunlight — and I’m by no means the first to make the analogy with vampires.

 

What’s going down isn’t just unprecedented, it’s unpresidented. You can blame Donald Trump for many things, including the fact that he will surely sign whatever bad bill is put in front of him. But as far as health care is concerned, he’s just an ignorant bystander, who all evidence suggests has little if any idea what’s actually in Trumpcare. 

 

So this isn’t a Trump story; it’s about the cynicism and corruption of the whole congressional G.O.P. Remember, it would take just a few conservatives with conscience — specifically, three Republican senators — to stop this outrage in its tracks. But right now, it looks as if those principled Republicans don’t exist.

 

 

There appears to be direct premeditated intent to harm millions of people, and probably killing a large number of them for no other reason than making the 1% wealthier than they are already. I can't understand how a human being would do this in a such a cold calculating manner. It really seems heartbreakingly similar to Syria in the callous disregard for human life and happiness.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

The Republicans are following the Democrats example; writing the Obamacare replacement bills the same way Democrats wrote Obamacare - in their party caucus. No surprise since they were pretty much shut out of the process by Democrats then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, DocM said:

The Republicans are following the Democrats example; writing the Obamacare replacement bills the same way Democrats wrote Obamacare - in their party caucus. 

Two wrongs don't make a right?

 

Clearly the Democrats created a lot of resentment which was the wrong way to go about something so important.

 

But then in a bizarre twisted definition of "win" the Republicans like children in a playground want ###### for tat without seeming to care that their actions will kill people. These are supposed to be adults with a sense of responsibility and they seem to be caught up in a mind numbing craze...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

44 minutes ago, DevTech said:

...But then in a bizarre twisted definition of "win" the Republicans like children in a playground want ###### for tat without seeming to care that their actions will kill people....

First, Obamacare cannot just be repealed and replaced in one step because much of it was a tax bill.  It didnt have to be, but it was. This constrains the process.

 

The taxation part has to be unwound first; repealing the Obamacare-specific taxes, as the House did because tax bills have to be originate there, then in the Senate. If there are differences they get sorted it in a joint Conference Committee, then it goes back to each house for an up or down vote.

 

Predicting the effect of the tax repeal is misleading at this point because any replacement taxes, and the replacement benefit packages, have not been passed yet. Therefore, CBO cannot accurately score the reported legislation so the effect is exaggerated. Makes for great CNN etc. headlines and campaign ads though!

 

Anyhow, the effect of the Obamacare taxes being repealed is still muted because they aren't being cut off cold but phased out, with the ramp happening down the road - giving time for the round 2 benefits legislation to be passed and signed. The goal being a smooth transition.

Edited by DocM
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, DocM said:

First, Obamacare cannot just be repealed and replaced in one step because much of it was a tax bill.  It didnt have to be, but it was. This constrains the process.

 

The taxation part has to be unwound first; repealing the Obamacare-specific taxes, as the House did because tax bills have to be originate there, then in the Senate. If there are differences they get sorted it in a joint Conference Committee, then it goes back to each house for an up or down vote.

 

Predicting the effect of the tax repeal is misleading at this point because any replacement taxes, and the replacement benefit packages, have not been passed yet. Therefore, CBO cannot accurately score the reported legislation so the effect is exaggerated. Makes for great CNN etc. headlines and campaign ads though!

 

Anyhow, the effect of the Obamacare taxes being repealed is still muted because they aren't being cut off cold but phased out, with the ramp happening down the road - giving time for the round 2 benefits legislation to be passed and signed. The goal being a smooth transition.

So that means they could get rid of all that complicated tax and insurance stuff and just implement Warren Buffets suggestion to help the U.S. economy?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, DevTech said:

So that means they could get rid of all that complicated tax and insurance stuff and just implement Warren Buffets suggestion to help the U.S. economy?

 

Single payer? California has been looking at a state single payer system. It would $200 billion the first year, and taxes would skyrocket. 

 

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/5/22/15676782/california-single-payer-health-care-estimate

 

x50 + territories? 

 

Then there's the physical issue, as in 325 million people spread over 9,833,520 km2.

 

Single payer has been hard enough to get right in small European counties where the EU population density average is 116.4/km2 and the distance to a doctor or clinic is short. Some countries are over 400/km2.  Even then, these systems have financial troubles. 

 

In the US people are much further apart, a population density of only 35.0/km2 (180th in the world), which means more facilities spread over a much wider area, serving fewer people per clinic over about 75-80% of the land mass, at much higher subsidized costs.

 

Ain't practical. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, DocM said:

Single payer? California has been looking at a state single payer system. It would $200 billion the first year, and taxes would skyrocket. 

 

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/5/22/15676782/california-single-payer-health-care-estimate

 

x50 + territories? 

 

Then there's the physical issue, as in 325 million people spread over 9,833,520 km2.

 

Single payer has been hard enough to get right in small European counties where the EU population density average is 116.4/km2 and the distance to a doctor or clinic is short. Some ate over 400/2.  Even then, these systems have financial troubles. 

 

In the US people are much further apart, a population density of only 35.0/km2 (180th in the world), which means more facilities spread over a much wider area, serving fewer people per clinic over about 75-80% of the land mass, at much higher subsidized costs.

 

Ain't practical. 

 

 

But why throw the baby out with the bath water? Start with an idea the helps the most people and then back away from it the least amount possible.

 

Warren Buffet who is not a stupid person, thinks it would greatly help U.S. Business grow and compete since the current system is a huge drag upon a typical business.

 

But the geographical density seems like an interesting point. Wouldn't that also affect Canada?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, DevTech said:

But why throw the baby out with the bath water? Start with an idea the helps the most people and then back away from it the least amount possible.

We had that, and rather than simply expand Medicare with a budget line item they tried to social engineer the whole health care system with results which reduced care to millions who were already insured. My family is one of them.

 

Nice shootin' Progressive Tex, and you don't get another try.

 

Quote

Warren Buffet who is not a stupid person, thinks it would greatly help U.S. Business grow and compete since the current system is a huge drag upon a typical business.

Spoken by someone who uses, and would continue to use, concierge medicine.  Pffftt. 

 

Quote

But the geographical density seems like an interesting point. Wouldn't that also affect Canada?

It can, and it does.  There are serious access problems in rural Canada.

 

The other big secret about Canada's public health care system is how heavily it depends on private US health networks in the US border states, including here in Michigan, and this has been going on for decades. The Henry Ford and other regional health networks have clinics just for Canadian patients, and many patients are sent to us by the Canadian system. Others come here on their own dime to avoid the long waiting times, often to treat diseases which shouldn't wait.

 

Example: until recently Ontario only had 3 facilities which could do stem cell therapies for blood disorders and certain cancers.  The overflow was sent to US hospitals in Buffalo NY, Cleveland OH and Detroit MI.

 

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/04/19/ontario-to-spend-100m-outsourcing-life-saving-transplants-to-us.html

 

How many stem cell clinics could have been equipped for that money before the PR roof caved in?  At a cost of $2.5-5+ million per clinic quite a few, but they only needed 2-3. Easier to call in the US providers until the PR poo-storm hit, and some are still coming here.

 

This is just one example, and Canadians are still coming for diagnostics, surgeries, treatments etc.  How many? Way more than the Canadian studies catch because our Detroit area clinics give 25-35% discounts to out-of-system Canadians paying their own way.  

 

Edited by DocM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.