London van attack: One dead as police investigate incident as terrorism


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+Dick Montage
10 minutes ago, Astra.Xtreme said:

And since you're concerned about who's winning and who's losing

Oh I'm far from concerned.  I am not here to win, I am here picking you up on nonsense.  Are you losing an argument?  Sure, but that's through your own doing - not mine.  Again, you value your comments far too highly - you may question this, no doubt you will, therefore as a response I shall not see any more of your drivel - goodbye and good luck in your future deflections.

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Rippleman
9 minutes ago, Nefarious Trigger said:

 

England's version of a life sentence legally includes "eligible for parole after a fixed period set by the judge".  Unfortunately.

Question: what is a common number set by a judge on crimes of intentionally premeditated and planned murder? Is it legal for a judge to say 100 (or any number where it is obvious the person will die in prision)?

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Astra.Xtreme
6 minutes ago, Nefarious Trigger said:

Oh I'm far from concerned.  I am not here to win, I am here picking you up on nonsense.  Are you losing an argument?  Sure, but that's through your own doing - not mine.  Again, you value your comments far too highly - you may question this, no doubt you will, therefore as a response I shall not see any more of your drivel - goodbye and good luck in your future deflections.

So let's get this straight...  You fabricate a quote saying I'm losing a discussion, and then you retract having any concern about winning/losing such discussion?  Do you even read what you write?  You better hope a mod eventually comes along and cleans up this mess.  The constant flip-flopping and deflections coming from you is astounding.  The amusement is even starting to wear off.

 

And to address your previous comment about what I want...  I want you to read page 2.

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FloatingFatMan
2 hours ago, wakjak said:

You presumed. You were called out for it. You don't like being called out for it. Tough.

Given how rare lifelong prison terms are in the UK, presumption of eventual freedom is pretty safe.

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FloatingFatMan
52 minutes ago, Rippleman said:

Question: what is a common number set by a judge on crimes of intentionally premeditated and planned murder? Is it legal for a judge to say 100 (or any number where it is obvious the person will die in prision)?

The most common term in the UK for parole on a life sentence is 15 years.  It can vary, depending on the severity of the crime, and rarely, the judge can order a "lifelong" sentence, in which case you'll never be released, but usually, it's eligible for parole after 15 years.

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Jim K
7 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

The most common term in the UK for parole on a life sentence is 15 years.  It can vary, depending on the severity of the crime, and rarely, the judge can order a "lifelong" sentence, in which case you'll never be released, but usually, it's eligible for parole after 15 years.

Are there minimum sentences for terror motivated attacks in the UK? 

Are they calling this a terrorist attack? 

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FloatingFatMan
Just now, Jim K said:

Are there minimum sentences for terror motivated attacks in the UK? 

Are they calling this a terrorist attack? 

Any minimum would depend on the nature of the crime itself.  Being attributed to terrorism increases the sentence.

 

As far as I know, they ARE treating this as a terrorist attack, rather than a racially motivated hate crime.  He'll get stiffer sentencing because of that.  Seeing as someone died, he's probably going to get a minimum 15-25 years before parole.

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Rippleman

 

1 hour ago, FloatingFatMan said:

As far as I know, they ARE treating this as a terrorist attack, rather than a racially motivated hate crime.  He'll get stiffer sentencing because of that.  Seeing as someone died, he's probably going to get a minimum 15-25 years before parole.

This was my interpretation on this as well, but a couple others here in this thread said it was utter nonsense. I can't name the names or the comment will get deleted again. Hope its as long as legally possible.

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DocM
4 hours ago, shockz said:

I'll bite, even though you're being intentionally obtuse.

 

Usually when you kill an innocent person, with intent to kill, and not an accident, the following happens when you are found guilty:

 

1) You are sentenced to life in prison, with the remote possibility of parole, however by the time that happens, the person has either died of old age/prison life, or the parole is denied. For extremely violent rampages, parole is usually not a possibility.

 

2) You are sentenced to death, and either die on death row or your death sentence is commuted to life in prison as laws and culture change.

 

3) You miraculously win an insane plea and serve out the rest of your life in an mental facility with no chance of freedom.

 

There are of course one off situations, by majority-wise, the 3 above are the most likely scenarios for a murderer. 

 

This isn't hitting someone when driving under the influence, or shooting someone in self defense, this is a pretty clear cut example of premeditation.

Not that simple.

 

Lower grade homicides like manslaughter can be sentenced to as little as 1 year to 30+ years.

 

In MI Second Degree Murder can send you away forever, even for a vehicular homicide. 

 

First Degree Murder/Felony Murder sentences in the US states vary widely, largely from 10-99 years for numeric sentences to "Life" (which in practice can be as little as 20 years), "Natural Life" (forever) or death.  Some states will issue a 20-25 year sentence then give time off for good behavior - with some getting out on parole in under 10 years. Multiple murders can be sentenced consecutively (20+20+20 = 60 years) or concurrently (in parallel: 20+20+20 = 20 years), it's up to the judge and they often have broad leeway. OTOH, the prosecutors can appeal what they think is a too lenient sentence.

 

Federal is a whole other can of worms, but generally there's no parole.

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shockz
15 minutes ago, DocM said:

Not that simple.

 

Lower grade homicides like manslaughter can be sentenced to as little as 1 year to 30+ years.

 

In MI Second Degree Murder can send you away forever, even for a vehicular homicide. 

 

First Degree Murder/Felony Murder sentences in the US states vary widely, largely from 10-99 years for numeric sentences to "Life" (which in practice can be as little as 20 years), "Natural Life" (forever) or death.  Some states will issue a 20-25 year sentence then give time off for good behavior - with some getting out on parole in under 10 years. Multiple murders can be sentenced consecutively (20+20+20 = 60 years) or concurrently (in parallel: 20+20+20 = 20 years), it's up to the judge and they often have broad leeway. OTOH, the prosecutors can appeal what they think is a too lenient sentence.

 

Federal is a whole other can of worms, but generally there's no parole.

Yes, I'm referring to first degree murder, with premeditation as a criteria for death row. Not manslaughter and the like. I doubt the individual in question would be charged with anything less than 1st degree murder/terrorism if this were to have happened in the US.

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+Raze

When all is said and done, I believe it would be safe to say that we all hope the assailant is tried, convicted and receives the maximum sentence allowed by law.

 

Again, hoping for the best for the injured and condolences to the family/friends of the dead.

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Jim K
6 hours ago, J. X. Maxwell said:

That guy is being held over his Facebook remarks.

Quote

Finsbury Park attack: Son of hire boss held over Facebook post

 

A man has been arrested on suspicion of posting an offensive Facebook post about the London Finsbury Park attack.

 

Police said a 37-year-old, believed to be the son of an owner of the Rhondda Cynon Taff company whose van was used in Monday's attack, is in custody.

 

Richard Evans allegedly posted: "It's a shame they don't hire out steam rollers or tanks could have done a tidy job then."

 

His father, Lee Evans, said he condemned the remarks.

 

South Wales Police said a 37-year-old man was being held on suspicion of displaying threatening, abusive, insulting written material with intent that is likely to stir up racial hatred.

/snip

Full article at the BBC

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The Evil Overlord
27 minutes ago, Jim K said:

That guy is being held over his Facebook remarks.

Full article at the BBC

Well, I hope that level of stupidity hurts them as a business.

 

If a person happens to believe in that crap, then at least keep it confined to an area where it wouldn't cause a public knee jerk reaction.

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Yogurth
7 hours ago, Nefarious Trigger said:

Actually there is a very strong correlation between race and religion.

Please elaborate.

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FloatingFatMan
29 minutes ago, Yogurth said:

Please elaborate.

Well, it's not too far out there to say that if you're born in a particular region, you're like to follow the religion OF that region.  Japanese tend to be Buddhist or Shinto, Europeans tend to be Christians or Jews, Arabs tend to be Muslims.  Of course, there are always exceptions, but generally, it tends to hold true.

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Yogurth
7 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

Well, it's not too far out there to say that if you're born in a particular region, you're like to follow the religion OF that region.  Japanese tend to be Buddhist or Shinto, Europeans tend to be Christians or Jews, Arabs tend to be Muslims.  Of course, there are always exceptions, but generally, it tends to hold true.

hmm, those You mentioned are not Races, but rather nations. Races, to my knowledge, are these:  White/Caucasian, Mongoloid/Asian, Negroid/Black, and Australoid.

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FloatingFatMan
Just now, Yogurth said:

hmm, those You mentioned are not Races, but rather nations. Races, to my knowledge, are these:  White/Caucasian, Mongoloid/Asian, Negroid/Black, and Australoid.

Huh?  Europeans are generally Caucasian, Japanese are Asian, Arabs are technically Arabids... Each come from a particular region of the world, and each tend to follow the dominate religion of their region.

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ctebah
6 minutes ago, Yogurth said:

Races, to my knowledge, are these:  White/Caucasian, Mongoloid/Asian, Negroid/Black, and Australoid.

That's correct but there are other ways of differentiating races.  

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Yogurth
11 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

Huh?  Europeans are generally Caucasian, Japanese are Asian, Arabs are technically Arabids... Each come from a particular region of the world, and each tend to follow the dominate religion of their region.

Asians are Buddhist/Muslim/Shinto/Hindu and Christian, Arabids are Muslim/Christian and Jewish, Whites are mostly Christian in the entire world with Muslim pockets in Europe, Blacks are mostly Christian in Europe. South and North America and split down the middle Christian/Muslim in Africa. So no religion is geopolitically divided not racially.

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+Red King
1 hour ago, Jim K said:

That guy is being held over his Facebook remarks.

Full article at the BBC

Bummer. He simply said out loud what most whisper.

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TPreston
18 minutes ago, J. X. Maxwell said:

Bummer. He simply said out loud what most whisper.

Vile

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Jim K
33 minutes ago, J. X. Maxwell said:

Bummer. He simply said out loud what most whisper.

I would hope that most people have high enough morals not to condone (or "whisper") violence against other innocent humans.

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Mando
3 hours ago, Raze said:

When all is said and done, I believe it would be safe to say that we all hope the assailant is tried, convicted and receives the maximum sentence allowed by law.

 

Again, hoping for the best for the injured and condolences to the family/friends of the dead.

id like to hope hes sectioned as a crackpot, then they can keep him interred indefinitely. Just as they did with Brady. 

 

 

Oh and yes @TEXASmate, the Iman did protect him from the masses until the Police arrived. A lot of the injured were outside trying to help an elderly gentleman who had collapsed before the incident outside of their place of worship, when he ploughed into them.

Quote

 

"Imam Mohammed Mahmoud, who protected the alleged attacker from an angry crowd, said: "This demonisation of the Muslim community at the hands of people with ulterior motives... have succeeded to some extent [by] influencing the vulnerable and the impressionable.

"It's on a par with the London Bridge attack... and we just hope that in times of tragedy people come together and unite.

"The fabric of this society is not torn but we have to continue to keep the fabric of this society intact, and come together."

 

 

Kudos to the Iman and his congregation showing compassion to the elderly gentleman who later died (not directly related) yet another example of the peace loving Mosque in Finsbury Park.

Edited by Mando
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FloatingFatMan
8 hours ago, J. X. Maxwell said:

Bummer. He simply said out loud what most whisper.

Most? Maybe in your neck of the woods...

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Shiranui
8 hours ago, Mando said:

Kudos to the Iman and his congregation showing compassion to the elderly gentleman who later died (not directly related) yet another example of the peace loving Mosque in Finsbury Park.

If he hadn't stepped in, they would have gone medieval on him.
They all showed remarkable restraint under the circumstances.
At least one or two got to put the boots in before the coppers arrived.

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