Nurse arrested for refusing to let officer take blood from unconscious victim

[mudslag]

http://www.sltrib.com/pb/news/2017/08/31/utah-nurse-arrested-after-complying-with-hospital-policy-that-bars-taking-blood-from-unconscious-victim

 

 

 

 

 

A nurse says she was assaulted and illegally arrested by a Salt Lake City police detective for following a hospital policy that does not allow blood draws from unconscious patients.

 

Footage from University Hospital and officer body cameras shows Detective Jeff Payne and nurse Alex Wubbels in a standoff over whether the policeman should be allowed to get a blood sample from a patient who had been injured in a July 26 collision in northern Utah that left another driver dead.

 

Wubbels says blood cannot be taken from an unconscious patient unless the patient is under arrest, unless there is a warrant allowing the draw or unless the patient consents. The detective acknowledges in the footage that none of those requirements is in place, but he insists that he has the authority to obtain the draw, according to the footage.

[FloatingFatMan]

So, yet another cop abusing their authority and flouting the law to suit their own aims.

[Memphis]

On top of that, this is flat strange to me for another reason that most might not immediately realize. As an ER nurse, I can tell you that most of us know the police by name. Every trauma, assault with a weapon, animal bite, escorted psychiatric patient etc brings us into contact and coordination with the police on a daily and first name basis. I can't speak for every town, but I work at one of the largest ER's in my state and it is this way here. If this happened here, I can pretty much bet the other cops would shun them. Blood being drawn from a patient in this light is a big no no and cops here are very respectful and upfront with their paperwork showing they need something like this. Nurses are the 5th largest group of workers to be assaulted at work already, we do not need police increasing that number. Utah's governor signed legislation at a hospital under 7 miles away making assaulting a nurse or doctor a class A felony only 13 months prior to this event, legislation my state still has not passed. Lets see this officer get charged properly.

[Gone]

9 minutes ago, sidroc said:

On top of that, this is flat strange to me for another reason that most might not immediately realize. As an ER nurse, I can tell you that most of us know the police by name. Every trauma, assault with a weapon, animal bite, escorted psychiatric patient etc brings us into contact and coordination with the police on a daily and first name basis. I can't speak for every town, but I work at one of the largest ER's in my state and it is this way here. If this happened here, I can pretty much bet the other cops would shun them. Blood being drawn from a patient in this light is a big no no and cops here are very respectful and upfront with their paperwork showing they need something like this. Nurses are the 5th largest group of workers to be assaulted at work already, we do not need police increasing that number. Utah's governor signed legislation at a hospital under 7 miles away making assaulting a nurse or doctor a class A felony only 13 months prior to this event, legislation my state still has not passed. Lets see this officer get charged properly.

I don't believe that unlawful arrest is assault, so lets not play that card. Police have the authority to arrest lawfully, when done unlawfully (which will be proven at court and not by an over sensationalized media) they should suffer the consequences.

 

Would a nurse draw blood on an unconscious victim if their life depended on it? I'm pretty sure if it could save a life then it would be done. But I am not a nurse so I won't comment on that regardless of hospital policy.

 

[dipsylalapo Supervisor]

3 minutes ago, SpeedyTheSnail said:

Would a nurse draw blood on an unconscious victim if their life depended on it? I'm pretty sure if it could save a life then it would be done. But I am not a nurse so I won't comment on that regardless of hospital policy.

 

Saving a life vs drawing blood on a patient against rules that have been set out and agreed with the establishment that the police officer is working for are slightly different. 

 

If the officers wanted the blood as badly as the arrest suggested, they should have come in hand with a warrant or at least been aware of the rules/regulations that have been put into place. 

[Memphis]

8 minutes ago, SpeedyTheSnail said:

I don't believe that unlawful arrest is assault, so lets not play that card. Police have the authority to arrest lawfully, when done unlawfully (which will be proven at court and not by an over sensationalized media) they should suffer the consequences.

 

Would a nurse draw blood on an unconscious victim if their life depended on it? I'm pretty sure if it could save a life then it would be done. But I am not a nurse so I won't comment on that regardless of hospital policy.

 

To my understanding, a clearly illegal arrest that an officer knows is illegal but say looses his temper can and have been charged in the past with standard civilian law (ie if I handcuffed you and dragged you to my car what I would be charged with). 

I will explain a bit here. Patient's rights vary a little state to state but their are basic concepts enshrined in all states. Consent and implied consent cover what you mentioned. If a person is conscious and aware of what is going on, I may not draw blood under any circumstances without consent and if I were to do so, it would be considered assault on a patient (dead serious, nurses can get arrested for it). Implied consent comes into play when a person arrives unconscious and in need of medical treatment. Implied consent only covers what is medically necessary to save their life and lets say they wake up in the middle of a procedure and withdraw consent, then we have to stop period or its assault. If the patient is DNR (Do not Resuscitate) and we forget to check the medical record before CPR, it is also assault. Had a ESI 1 GSW arrive at the ER a while back, this patient refused treatment and walked out of the ER bleeding, nothing you can do about it.

Police are 100% aware of  this as they probably have more direct interaction with ER nurses than any other group of workers outside of the fire department and EMS. If an officer enters our ER needing blood for this it goes like this.

1, Officer approaches the Unit Secretary and asks for the Charge Nurse.
2, Officer approaches the Charge Nurse with a warrant, or stating that a patient is under arrest and will provide paperwork to the hospital documenting so.

3, Once this is established, the Charge Nurse will notify the provider and patients nurse and the orders will be placed in the Echart for the draw. 
4, The nurse will then draw the blood, apply a patient label, and turn it over to the officer requesting.

Edited September 1, 2017 by sidroc

[CrossCheck]

My wife is a 911 dispatcher and used to work with this officer when he was a sheriffs deputy, Her quote was "He is an idiot". She also was never arrested or charged with any crime because there was no crime committed, she was only detained. the person they were trying to get blood from was an accident victim and not a criminal. 

[mudslag]

The law is on her side

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birchfield_v._North_Dakota

Birchfield v. North Dakota, 579 U.S. ___ (2016), was a case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held that the search incident to arrestdoctrine permits law enforcement to conduct warrantless breath tests but not blood tests on suspected drunk drivers.[1]

[Gone]

1 hour ago, sidroc said:

To my understanding, a clearly illegal arrest that an officer knows is illegal but say looses his temper can and have been charged in the past with standard civilian law (ie if I handcuffed you and dragged you to my car what I would be charged with). 

I will explain a bit here. Patient's rights vary a little state to state but their are basic concepts enshrined in all states. Consent and implied consent cover what you mentioned. If a person is conscious and aware of what is going on, I may not draw blood under any circumstances without consent and if I were to do so, it would be considered assault on a patient (dead serious, nurses can get arrested for it). Implied consent comes into play when a person arrives unconscious and in need of medical treatment. Implied consent only covers what is medically necessary to save their life and lets say they wake up in the middle of a procedure and withdraw consent, then we have to stop period or its assault. If the patient is DNR (Do not Resuscitate) and we forget to check the medical record before CPR, it is also assault. Had a ESI 1 GSW arrive at the ER a while back, this patient refused treatment and walked out of the ER bleeding, nothing you can do about it.

Police are 100% aware of  this as they probably have more direct interaction with ER nurses than any other group of workers outside of the fire department and EMS. If an officer enters our ER needing blood for this it goes like this.

1, Officer approaches the Unit Secretary and asks for the Charge Nurse.
2, Officer approaches the Charge Nurse with a warrant, or stating that a patient is under arrest and will provide paperwork to the hospital documenting so.

3, Once this is established, the Charge Nurse will notify the provider and patients nurse and the orders will be placed in the Echart for the draw. 
4, The nurse will then draw the blood, apply a patient label, and turn it over to the officer requesting.

Very informative, thanks!

1 hour ago, CrossCheck said:

My wife is a 911 dispatcher and used to work with this officer when he was a sheriffs deputy, Her quote was "He is an idiot". She also was never arrested or charged with any crime because there was no crime committed, she was only detained. the person they were trying to get blood from was an accident victim and not a criminal. 

Though they were involved in an accident that left 1 person dead, they could be at fault (of course we don't have the facts).

[Seahorsepip Veteran]

1 hour ago, CrossCheck said:

My wife is a 911 dispatcher and used to work with this officer when he was a sheriffs deputy, Her quote was "He is an idiot". She also was never arrested or charged with any crime because there was no crime committed, she was only detained. the person they were trying to get blood from was an accident victim and not a criminal. 

Even when family of the deceased accident victim somehow had influenced the him for example then it would still not be up to the professional standard that would be expected, especially not from a sheriffs deputy  which should lead by example for the people in law enforcement that work for him.

 

Thank god he was caught, can't imagine how the victim would have felt about the legal system if he would be prosecuted with illegally obtained evidence and found guilty, even if it would proof a higher level of alcohol as example then it would still be so wrong for so many legal reasons.

[Memphis]

19 minutes ago, SpeedyTheSnail said:

Very informative, thanks!

Though they were involved in an accident that left 1 person dead, they could be at fault (of course we don't have the facts).

To add to this, hospitals keep blood samples in the lab for 24 - 48 hours. If he came in unconscious, they already drew his blood and placed a IV.  If he came back with an arrest warrant, I can guarantee they would have had a sample dated to less than ten minutes of admission.

[Memphis]

Just now, Seahorsepip said:

Even when family of the deceased accident victim somehow had influenced the him for example then it would still not be up to the professional standard that would be expected, especially not from a sheriffs deputy  which should lead by example for the law enforcement people below him.

 

Thank god he was caught, can't imagine how the victim would have felt about the legal system if he would be prosecuted with illegally obtained evidence and found guilty, even if it would proof a higher level of alcohol as example then it would still be so wrong for so many legal reasons.

Even worse is that the officer was ordering the nurse to commit a felony that would entail possibly loss of licensure.

[Seahorsepip Veteran]

3 minutes ago, sidroc said:

To add to this, hospitals keep blood samples in the last for 24 - 48 hours. If he came in unconscious, they already drew his blood and placed a IV.  If he came back with an arrest warrant, I can guarantee they would have had a sample dated to less than ten minutes of admission.

Ah that answers a question I had about the possibility of people getting away with a high alcohol level in their blood when they are unconscious for example.

[wakjak]

45 minutes ago, SpeedyTheSnail said:

Very informative, thanks!

Though they were involved in an accident that left 1 person dead, they could be at fault (of course we don't have the facts).

But we do have the facts. The dead driver was fleeing the police and caused a head on collision. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/09/01/this-is-crazy-sobs-utah-hospital-nurse-as-cop-roughs-her-up-arrests-her-for-doing-her-job/

[PsYcHoKiLLa]

20 minutes ago, wakjak said:

But we do have the facts. The dead driver was fleeing the police and caused a head on collision. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/09/01/this-is-crazy-sobs-utah-hospital-nurse-as-cop-roughs-her-up-arrests-her-for-doing-her-job/

So the police are trying to not get sued by the other driver and hoping he was drunk?

[wakjak]

1 minute ago, PsYcHoKiLLa said:

So the police are trying to not get sued by the other driver and hoping he was drunk?

Who knows. All we know is that it's very strange.

[hagjohn]

'This is crazy,' sobs Utah hospital nurse as cop roughs her up, arrests her for doing her job

 

By all accounts, the head nurse at the University of Utah Hospital’s burn unit was professional and restrained when she told a Salt Lake City police detective he wasn’t allowed to draw blood from a badly injured patient.

 

The detective didn’t have a warrant, first off. And the patient wasn’t conscious, so he couldn’t give consent. Without that, the detective was barred from collecting blood samples — not just by hospital policy, but by basic constitutional law.

 

Still, Detective Jeff Payne insisted that he be let in to take the blood, saying the nurse would be arrested and charged if she refused.

 

Nurse Alex Wubbels politely stood her ground. She got her supervisor on the phone so Payne could hear the decision loud and clear. “Sir,” said the supervisor, “you’re making a huge mistake because you’re threatening a nurse.”

 

Payne snapped. He seized hold of the nurse, shoved her out of the building and cuffed her hands behind her back. A bewildered Wubbels screamed “help me” and “you’re assaulting me” as the detective forced her into an unmarked car and accused her of interfering with an investigation.

 

Click on link below to view video:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/this-is-crazy-sobs-utah-hospital-nurse-as-cop-roughs-her-up-arrests-her-for-doing-her-job/ar-AAr4UTh?li=AA4ZnC&ocid=spartanntp

[Jim K Global Moderator]

//threads merged

 

The book needs to be thrown at both the officer who put her in handcuffs and the other officer (assuming supervisor) talking down to her like she was some dumb criminal.  Absolutely no reason for them to have treated her that way.

[hagjohn]

I swear I looked.  ... anyway, I can't believe the cop didn't know he couldn't just draw blood from a patient that unconscious.

[wakjak]

 

There's a few more facts from this story.