Android vs iOS updates, the great debate!

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Draconian Guppy    12,427
9 minutes ago, oldtimefighter said:

I understand that but that but my previous comment is a simpler response. I don't care about one's iPhone has a better SoC or gets updates for 5 years because the platform itself (iOS) is not acceptable to me.

Good! :) every one is entitled to their own!

 

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dragontology    327

So, OP... you make a thread, you steal my post... but you disagree with me. I like you. Keep doing what you're doing. Here's some ammo for you to research: Project Treble. Supposedly starting with Android 8.0 Oreo, Android is supposed to be more modular, so it can potentially be updated independently of OEMs and carriers. But it's all theory, nothing has been set in stone yet, so it's more of a 'wait and see.'

 

Google Play Services updates really aren't that significant. They don't contain security updates most of the time. Really, Play Services is the monetization part of Android. Of course Google is going to prioritize it.

 

Solid points about the built-in iOS apps not getting updates outside of OS updates. Remember, Android used to be like this, too. A lot of things are still backwards in iOS. Recall that they just got third party keyboard support in iOS 8. Before that point, the only way to type in iOS was hunt and peck. There were trace typing apps, but you had to type in a sandboxed notepad and then copy/paste the text (so I'm told, I've never used this or seen it in action). Meanwhile Android has had trace typing for how long? In fact, Apple's reluctance to allow third party keyboards is a big part of why hunt and peck typing is still so popular, even on Android. That, and while SwiftKey, one of the top Android keyboards, has great prediction for hunt and peckers, the trace typing support is literally just there, it's no good at all. Swype also has issues, such as a great number of symbols being completely unavailable to the user. It's so fortunate that we have Google Keyboard (now Gboard) on both iOS and Android. I would literally be unable to do what I do without trace typing.

 

But the stock app options in iOS are not the only ones. Google and Microsoft have made their best apps available on iOS. If that were not true, the platform would not be so viable. It is ironic that iPhones depend at least partly, to at least some of us, upon apps made by their competitors. But so too is it ironic that one of the best things in the iPhone since at least the 6s (and maybe the 6) is something Samsung is the world leader in for gaming PCs, but no Samsung phone has it, let alone any other Android phone. NVMe-based SSD storage. Samsung's UFS is the closest thing, and NVMe simply kills UFS, let alone the EMMC used in other Android phones. And yet if you ask a serious PC gamer what their OS and games run off of, they're likely to tell you it's a Samsung Evo 960 Pro, which looks like a stick of RAM and acts like a hard drive, for those unfamiliar with M.2 SSDs. They cost about $350 for 500GB, around double that for 1TB. And go up to 2TB, as far as I know. (To compare, my non-NVMe SSD by Western Digital was about $275 for 1TB. And it's fast as hell, but a 960 Pro destroys it.) Samsung may even provide the NVMe storage in the iPhone, for all I know. They probably do.

 

I'm mostly dodging the update thing because, I made my case in the post OP quoted, and I stand by that. I used Android for six years, and I still consider myself an Android fan. I like the OS and I like the level of control you get. But Google has exerted undue control over their ecosystem, too. They've blocked ad blockers, and at one point they banished all emulators. They've since softened up on that, but any time Nintendo comes knocking, they could banish them all again like they did before. The fact of the matter is, Google is not your friend, and you as an Android phone owner are not Google's customer. Google made Android (to wit, bought it from Andy Rubin, and have maintained it) and give it away freely, so they can mine and sell your personal information, and skim a cut off store purchases (to be fair, Apple takes a cut off their store, too). I like Google as much as the next guy, but make no mistake: they ain't your friend, pal. No more than that weasel Zuckerberg over at Facebook. Meanwhile, Apple is a computer company. They sell computers. I don't even think they have an advertising arm, outside their own marketing. (While Google started out as a search company, their ad business is their biggest cash cow.) Mining your personal information goes against everything Apple stands for. In fact, they need your trust to build their brand. I'm not saying Apple is innocent and not at all corrupt, but being corrupt isn't how they make their money. And when you buy an iPhone, you are their customer. They are beholden to you to produce a quality product and support it. So while I like using Android more, I like what iOS stands for more, and that goes farther. I'm still not an Apple guy, or an iSheep. I follow all tech relevant to me (in smartphones, that means it's sold in the US and works on Verizon; if I can't use it, it's not relevant to me), and I don't really dislike any of the major flagships. I can point out the flaws in just about all of them. But for me personally, my phone is the iPhone 6s, and I haven't seen anything yet from any vendor, including Apple, that makes me want to change it.

 

On that last bit. I think it's necessary for Samsung and some of the other Android OEMs to get you to buy a phone every year or two. It's interesting to know that the iPhone 7 wasn't marketed at me, nor was the iPhone 8 or X. These phones are clearly for people who need a new phone. The message at Apple isn't "you need to update every year," even though the 'iSheep' seem to do exactly that. The message is, as I see it, "if you need a new phone, we're gonna sell you the best one you can get right now, and then we're gonna support it for half a decade, so you can keep it just about as long as you want." No, that isn't what they say. That's what I read. Meanwhile every Android flagship is aimed at owners of the previous generation. The new iPhones don't appeal to me, not because Apple's updates are minor, but because my iPhone works just as well as it did when I first powered it on. For some reason, Android can't do that. Anecdotally, some people have this experience, but Android can't do it for everyone. As a guy who was buying a new Android phone every year to year and a half, and doing everything under the sun to squeeze every last bit of power out of it (custom ROMs, custom kernels, etc.), it's so nice to have a phone where I don't have to do that anymore.

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Draconian Guppy    12,427
13 hours ago, dragontology said:

So, OP... you make a thread, you steal my post... but you disagree with me. I like you. Keep doing what you're doing. 

-------------------snipped --------------

Oh my, how did I "steal you comment" I  said I copypastad because I don't know how to link front page comments? Sorry you took it that way, I just meant it as a means  of reference from what and why I was going to comment, but perhaps to make it moar clear, you can ask a mod to add "this comment was posted by @dragontology  in the following article" and avoid any misunderstanding.

 

Also I know what treble is, didn't think it belonged in the discussion :laugh:

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techbeck    4,979
On 9/20/2017 at 10:55 AM, Nick H. said:

I agree, I've got a fair amount of respect for Apple in this regard. I know Google say that it is out of their hands as it is the service provider that pushes updates to Android, but that really shouldn't have been the case to begin with.

Hopefully with the HTC purchase, Google can take control of some of the market.  Vanilla android is appealing to lots and the pixels/nexus devices are updated consistently and has good 3rd party  support .   I think they will have to adjust their pricing if they have any hope tho.

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dragontology    327
6 hours ago, Draconian Guppy said:

Oh my, how did I "steal you comment" I  said I copypastad because I don't know how to link front page comments? Sorry you took it that way, I just meant it as a means  of reference from what and why I was going to comment, but perhaps to make it moar clear, you can ask a mod to add "this comment was posted by @dragontology  in the following article" and avoid any misunderstanding.

 

Also I know what treble is, didn't think it belonged in the discussion :laugh:

Oh damn, I apologize for my poor word choice, I didn't mean to say 'steal' and I don't know why I chose that word. I was being snarky, but I can't seem justify using that word now. I see now that I meant to say 'quote,' but can't see where I was going with 'steal.' So yeah, the opening line was meant to be playful. Genuinely sorry that it came across wrong. I meant that part to be fun. Shame they don't let us edit posts. I didn't take it that way at all. I love that you made this thread.

 

Why do you feel Treble doesn't belong in the discussion? Seems perfectly relevant here.

 

Regarding the purchase of HTC's Pixel team, I do hope Google makes better first-party phones, but as long as they're using Qualcomm chips, Qualcomm can refuse to provide updates for the new system, as OEMs have accused them of doing when passing the buck. Google needs to buy a chip maker. I wonder if they can afford Qualcomm. Doubt it. Maybe they can buy MediaTek and make them reputable?

 

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Draconian Guppy    12,427
8 hours ago, dragontology said:

Oh damn, I apologize for my poor word choice, I didn't mean to say 'steal' and I don't know why I chose that word. I was being snarky, but I can't seem justify using that word now. I see now that I meant to say 'quote,' but can't see where I was going with 'steal.' So yeah, the opening line was meant to be playful. Genuinely sorry that it came across wrong. I meant that part to be fun. Shame they don't let us edit posts. I didn't take it that way at all. I love that you made this thread.

 

Why do you feel Treble doesn't belong in the discussion? Seems perfectly relevant here.

 

Regarding the purchase of HTC's Pixel team, I do hope Google makes better first-party phones, but as long as they're using Qualcomm chips, Qualcomm can refuse to provide updates for the new system, as OEMs have accused them of doing when passing the buck. Google needs to buy a chip maker. I wonder if they can afford Qualcomm. Doubt it. Maybe they can buy MediaTek and make them reputable?

 

Ah missunderstanding on both parts! :laugh: 

 

It is relevant, we just haven't seen real world usage nor major reviews concerning treble and I still have my doubts: sure it looks all fine and dandy, as it is, supposedly google updates will be pushed regardless of OEM/carriers. But see bottom image:
According to the right image "original vendor implementation (OVI)". I can see treble working for minor OS releases, but even then, if they tweak/add, say any random feature that perhaps my cause confusion with an OVI, how is that going to work? Then for major releases, where features are added/removed. Take for example doze, say they remove/rework it, some OEM like LG and samsung have their own implementation,  how would this not affect the OVI?

Project-Treble.png

 

Yeah mediatek chips :laugh: there's kirin too, but I don't know, google already screwed up motorola, lets hope they get it right this time.

Edited by Draconian Guppy

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dragontology    327

It's up to the OEMs to make their customisations properly modular. OEMs get access to the OS, or at least the important parts of it, before release. They know what's coming, and they have time to prepare for it. Now, the problem is, on their end, that they don't want to support old phones. While Apple is in the hardware business and they want you to have faith in their computers, and phones, Android OEMs want you to buy a new one every year or two. So, while it is in the Samsung user's best interests if all of TouchWiz was updated on the Play Store, and Android updates came OTA, and TouchWiz would be updated in advance to support the new OS, that would mean that users of, say, the Galaxy S6, would get updates at the same time as owners of the Galaxy S8, and Samsung wouldn't be able to cut off older users to coerce them to update. They could make the Play Store update for only certain devices, but then the OS update would break the phone, and it would be Samsung's fault for not releasing the Play Store update (i.e. the fix) to certain devices. They would be the bad guys breaking their own phones. The problem is entirely on their end in this case.

 

I'm not a big environmental nut. I'd like to see phones get recycled, but I don't particularly care if Android phones continue to be disposable. What boggles my mind is that they continue to be priced like iPhones as if they're getting the same 5 years of support. As if they're meant to be used for more than a year or two. This goes back to my yearly cost argument. The $1000 iPhone X is only $200 a year, while the $970 Note 8 is $485 a year with its 2 year support cycle. If the iPhone X user is materialistic and financially irresponsible and needs to trade up after a year or two, that's not on Apple. If the user is careless and breaks their phone at any time, that's also not on Apple, but that's what Apple Care is for.

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+Fahim S.    902
22 hours ago, dragontology said:

The $1000 iPhone X is only $200 a year, while the $970 Note 8 is $485 a year with its 2 year support cycle.

This, basically. It was fine when it was $400(ish) for a Nexus 4 which was a 'very good but not quite premium' device, but when we talk about $900+ the whole argument falls apart. In the spirit of full transparency I use an iPhone, which replaced a Nexus 6 which I dropped and broke beyond economical repair.  I agonised over the decision for quite some time, but the only sensible answer (for me) was to go with an iPhone.

 

I also don't buy the whole Google updates its major apps (and underlying services) all the time and Apple only does with major OS upgrades.    I am not going to argue with the first part, Google does update regularly.  Apple does also update through minor OS releases which sometimes change the inbuilt apps (at least resolving security issues in them).

 

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