59 dead after shooting on Las Vegas Strip; suspect ID'd

[Nashy]

Tragic.  Absolutely tragic.

Anyone who disagrees that these weapons shouldn't be banned are terrible humans.  There is no argument.

[Slugsie]

3 minutes ago, trag3dy said:

As I noted above these guns are not things ordinary people can just go and buy. It takes time and a lot of money to get them if you go the legal rout.

 

All evidence seems to indicate this guy didn't buy his guns legally.

So? Does that mean nothing needs to be done? Like I have said, I don't know what the solution is, but surely any sane, right minded person must agree that something needs to change. I'm sure it won't be a simple fix. I'm sure it'll be hard to come up with a solution that all sides can accept. But you need to actually try rather than sitting round collectively crying each and every time some nutter goes on a rampage.

[+Kyle Subscriber¹]

2 minutes ago, Nashy said:

Tragic.  Absolutely tragic.

Anyone who disagrees that these weapons shouldn't be banned are terrible humans.  There is no argument.

I am a terrible human then. 

[+Kyle Subscriber¹]

4 minutes ago, Slugsie said:

Does that mean nothing needs to be done?

I really don't think anyone is saying nothing needs to be done. People are confusing a lack of trying with a lack of progress. They are very different things. 

[DocM]

1 hour ago, shockz said:

And as a gun advocate, how would you propose we get guns out of the hands of criminals? 

2 words: you can't. 

 

If they want them they will get them since since it's no harder (and perhaps easier) to smuggle firearms into this country then it is marijuana, cocaine, or any other contraband. We have very long and largely unsecured borders, not to mention thousands of miles of coastline.

 

Besides that, anyone can go into a Harbor Freight Tools and buy whatever they need to make SMGs or whatever from standard metal stock.  Ex: 20 years ago there was a high school shop teacher in a community Southwest of Detroit busted for putting his metal shop students to work producing fully automatic weapons.

 

The problem driving these mass shootings really isn't the weaponry, they can use a car or almost anything, but the sad state state of mental health care in this country. Virtually all of them have some sort of mental health history that was waving red flags. That and many shrinks refuse to report them to the FBI instant background check system, which could deny new gun purchases.

 

When someone starts acting peculiarly we no longer have the ability of the police or their family pick them up, have the Probate Court assign them for mental health evaluation of up to 90 days and then make a determination if they should stay longer.

 

Starting back in the 1970s the decision was made, by both political parties, that the long-term institutionalization of seriously mentally ill people was too expensive or otherwise "bad." This coincided with some news stories of abuses and the movie and book "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest."

 

Granted, it made no sense to institutionalize people with conditions which could be treated on an outpatient basis, however many people were turned loose (and still are) whose conditions were not so easily treated, they offen refuse meds,  and some are downright dangerous.  

 

Today you're lucky to have Probate Court put them in for 72 hours, 10 days if you're lucky. Pretty much useless.

 

Result: in states like Michigan up to  80% of the prison population are mentally ill.

 

They were simply relocated from one kind of institution to another, but not before someone gets hurt or killed.

 

Edited October 2, 2017 by DocM

[Nashy]

Any excuse will do aye DOCM?  Any excuse.  Gun control won't work, will never work, will never make it batter, Australia isn't an example of how it can work, excuse, excuse, excuse, please don't take my guns away.

[TPreston]

Holy crap he had explosives and a crapload more guns

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/02/us/las-vegas-shooting-live/index.html?adkey=bn

[wakjak]

1 minute ago, Nashy said:

Any excuse will do aye DOCM?  Any excuse.  Gun control won't work, will never work, will never make it batter, Australia isn't an example of how it can work, excuse, excuse, excuse, please don't take my guns away.

Its never going to be the right time to talk gun control. Unless it was his or his family at the other end of a barrel. 

[trag3dy]

10 minutes ago, Nashy said:

Any excuse will do aye DOCM?  Any excuse.  Gun control won't work, will never work, will never make it batter, Australia isn't an example of how it can work, excuse, excuse, excuse, please don't take my guns away.

Does Australia have the same history and circumstances the US does?

 

No. No it doesn't.

 

Okay then.

[Nashy]

2 minutes ago, trag3dy said:

Does Australia have the same history and circumstances the US does?

 

No. No it doesn't.

 

Okay then.

Excuse Excuse Excuse!

[trag3dy]

Just now, Nashy said:

Excuse Excuse Excuse!

It's not an excuse, it's a reality.

 

You want some magical fairy land where guns won't or can't exist but here in reality they do and wishes won't make that change.

 

But what am I saying, feelings first.

57 minutes ago, Slugsie said:

So? Does that mean nothing needs to be done? Like I have said, I don't know what the solution is, but surely any sane, right minded person must agree that something needs to change. I'm sure it won't be a simple fix. I'm sure it'll be hard to come up with a solution that all sides can accept. But you need to actually try rather than sitting round collectively crying each and every time some nutter goes on a rampage.

No amount of gun legislation is going to take them out of the hands of people that want to do harm with them.

[+Red King Subscriber²]

There are two ways to approach a problem.

1. Remove the problem. This is hard, sometimes politically incorrect and/or costly.
2. Remove the freedoms that exasperate the problem. This is easy but at a price of freedom/privacy and thus happiness of citizens.

[Slugsie]

5 minutes ago, trag3dy said:

It's not an excuse, it's a reality.

 

You want some magical fairy land where guns won't or can't exist but here in reality they do and wishes won't make that change.

 

But what am I saying, feelings first.

No amount of gun legislation is going to take them out of the hands of people that want to do harm with them.

When I have said anything about gun legislation? I am simply saying *something* needs to be done. Do you disagree with that?

 

However I would disagree that 'No amount of gun legislation...' would change things. That's an asinine statement. If you make it impossible to get fully automatic and assault type rifles legally, and you actively work to remove any currently in circulation, then you *will* take them out of the hands of at least some of those that would do harm. Any reduction *will* save lives.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Slugsie

[trag3dy]

1 minute ago, Slugsie said:

When I have said anything about gun legislation? I am simply saying *something* needs to be done. Do you disagree with that?

"Something" is a really vague word. If you don't want people to make assumptions then don't be vague.

[Nashy]

5 minutes ago, trag3dy said:

It's not an excuse, it's a reality.

 

You want some magical fairy land where guns won't or can't exist but here in reality they do and wishes won't make that change.

 

But what am I saying, feelings first.

No amount of gun legislation is going to take them out of the hands of people that want to do harm with them.

 

Don't feed me your rubbish.

I don't want them not to exist, I want military and police to have access to semi and fully automatic.  You don't need a semi or fully automatic rifle.  No normal person does.

Australia doesn't have the same history.  What sort of absolute garbage reasoning is that?

You know what happens when guns are banned?  The prices sky rocket on the black market.  It's far harder to pay $15k in Australia on the black market for an AR15 than a few hundred in America.  Deadset.  You can keep your guns, just these super ######ed up kill 59 people in 3 minutes ones, they have to go.

As far as I'm concerned, you have no argument.  You can disagree, but you're wrong.

[Slugsie]

5 minutes ago, trag3dy said:

"Something" is a really vague word. If you don't want people to make assumptions then don't be vague.

As I have already said, I honestly don't know what the solution is. I just advocate for all sides to get together and actively work on a solution. Anything has got to be better than the current situation in the US.

[trag3dy]

1 minute ago, Nashy said:

 

Don't feed me your rubbish.

I don't want them not to exist, I want military and police to have access to semi and fully automatic.  You don't need a semi or fully automatic rifle.  No normal person does.

Australia doesn't have the same history.  What sort of absolute garbage reasoning is that?

You know what happens when guns are banned?  The prices sky rocket on the black market.  It's far harder to pay $15k in Australia on the black market for an AR15 than a few hundred in America.  Deadset.  You can keep your guns, just these super ######ed up kill 59 people in 3 minutes ones, they have to go.

As far as I'm concerned, you have no argument.  You can disagree, but you're wrong.

History and circumstance. They are important factors that need to be taken into consideration when talking about how to handle this issue. If you just want to dismiss it all because you think things should be a certain way while ignoring very real hurdles then it's you that doesn't have an argument you just have a list of demands that can be easily dismissed because your feelings are leading the way.

 

As far as I'm concerned I don't care what you think.

[Nashy]

1 minute ago, trag3dy said:

History and circumstance. They are important factors that need to be taken into consideration when talking about how to handle this issue. If you just want to dismiss it all because you think things should be a certain way while ignoring very real hurdles then it's you that doesn't have an argument you just have a list of demands that can be easily dismissed because your feelings are leading the way.

 

As far as I'm concerned I don't care what you think.

Doesn't have to be taken into account at all.  Your excuse isn't even good.
 

I don't care if you care what I think.  Hopefully someone you love has this happen, maybe it'll change your mind.

[trag3dy]

1 minute ago, Slugsie said:

As I have already said, I honestly don't know what the solution is. I just advocate for all sides to get together and actively work on a solution. Anything has got to be better than the current situation in the US.

I said as much too, a page or two back.

 

Outside of outright banning them or getting rid of the 2A fully automatic assault rifles are already heavily restricted as I have detailed. There's not much else that can be done that isn't invasive to peoples right in this country as far as they are concerned.

 

Unless we're moving the goal posts and talking about all guns...

[PGHammer]

24 minutes ago, TPreston said:

Holy crap he had explosives and a crapload more guns

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/02/us/las-vegas-shooting-live/index.html?adkey=bn

TPreston - the guy HAD money (he made his money in real estate).  He's also a former IRS agent (don't know whether he had to carry OTJ or not), and his record was so clean it squeaked.  What was going to set off any flags?  While he gambled, he had no debt due to it (source: MSNBC).  His record was cleaner than that of Nevada's lieutenant governor (who calls LV home) - what would raise a red flag, huh?

[trag3dy]

1 minute ago, Nashy said:

Doesn't have to be taken into account at all.  Your excuse isn't even good.
 

I don't care if you care what I think.  Hopefully someone you love has this happen, maybe it'll change your mind.

[Slugsie]

I have a very simple question for the pro-gun advocates here... do you agree that something needs to be done to end this seemingly perpetual gun violence that plagues your country?

 

A simple yes or no will suffice.

[Nashy]

2 minutes ago, Slugsie said:

I have a very simple question for the pro-gun advocates here... do you agree that something needs to be done to end this seemingly perpetual gun violence that plagues your country?

 

A simple yes or no will suffice.

You and I both know the answer to that.  Resounding no, they don't use their brains when discussing guns.

[Slugsie]

1 minute ago, trag3dy said:

 

Unless we're moving the goal posts and talking about all guns...

I have already stated that I understand that an outright ban on all guns in the US isn't a good idea. You have vast beautiful areas of wilderness with wildlife that can kill (mountain lions, bears etc). At a minimum carrying a handgun is a useful tool for self protection in such circumstances.

[PGHammer]

Just now, Slugsie said:

I have a very simple question for the pro-gun advocates here... do you agree that something needs to be done to end this seemingly perpetual gun violence that plagues your country?

 

A simple yes or no will suffice.

The problem is what can be done that doesn't trample on existing rights.  Like it or not, there are some things that simply won't fly.  The modifications - if he did them himself, he broke the law; however, the knowledge of HOW to do it is somewhere on the Internet (not even the dark web) - you going to give the Internet a bath? (Would that even be legal?)  The guy's record was clean - not even any MH background issues.  (That can't be said by a lot of politicians.  The limits on what is permissible exist for valid reasons - whether we like them or not.