59 dead after shooting on Las Vegas Strip; suspect ID'd

[The Evil Overlord]

6 minutes ago, warwagon said:

Ya, i've seen the photo of him dead on the ground, nothing too special.

It's still graphic enough to get me warned, which is why I only confirmed it existed.

[PGHammer]

2 minutes ago, Jim K said:

Link? They reported he was firing between 9 and 11 minutes.

When was the report you quoted?  Not disputing it - it's why I'm asking "when".  If you are talking about an earlier presser, TCE may have happened (because I DO remember similar numbers from earlier pressers) .  TCE happens during firefights (too many reports of it to dispute it - and this certainly qualifies) - it's why when you go back and start piecing events together that the actual time-chain looks out of whack - because real-time vs. apparent-time IS out of whack.

[Mockingbird]

It looks like the shooter uses bump stocks in order to emulate automatic gunfire

 

 

[PGHammer]

Just now, The Evil Overlord said:

It's still graphic enough to get me warned, which is why I only confirmed it existed.

It was also leaked - CCSO is hunting for who leaked it (also from last night's presser) to throw them in the pokey (which is no longer in the old City Hall building - which is being leased to Zappo's)

[The Evil Overlord]

12 hours ago, T3X4S said:

meh - no biggie.

I had to go to ALex Jones' site to see the pic of headwound.  All of the Infowars tinfoil brigade were making a huge deal how the rifle was over his foot  - I guess they were trying to say it wasn't natural  

I dunno. 

In theory, a body would still reflex respond to a self inflicted gun shot wound, if, for arguement sake, he was on his knees, and blew his brains out, his body would still react as if he just received an uppercut type impact from under the chin, he would kick out and fall backwards violently, and then there's the 'death dance' where the body goes into a 'convulsion' and the resulting movement eventually rested under the gun.

Of course this is just a theory, (apart from the convulsion, I have have seen this. As have many emergency medical personnel)

[PGHammer]

15 minutes ago, dead.cell said:

Gotta give you props for being honest. This site is quite diverse between US and European readers (and elsewhere), and too often do we get people who try to insert what works for their country as a solution for everyone else. It's really a bad way to run things, given we all have different problems.

 

The drug trade for instance is still rampant, despite the "War on Drugs". This just makes me way more skeptical for imposing some sort of "War on Guns", as I know damn well many people will do whatever they can to retain their guns anyway. You couple that with trafficking which already exists, and you have to wonder what the goal is and how they would plan to make any sort of impact.

 

I do agree there should be some sort of legislation in place, but what exactly? And would that legislation have helped fight against a man who was clearly determined to carry out his "mission"? We're talking about a guy who not only snuck the guns in, but set up cameras too for that matter. 9/11 happened because of a bunch of terrorists with box cutters. There has to be some consideration for where we draw the line in these situations. Where, I too am unsure.

 

I know some people were talking about hearing what sounded like different caliber of shots. My only guess is they're hearing the differences between bullets cracking by them vs. the sound from the muzzle, since the timing would make sense.

He had different gun calibers in his stash - CCSO themselves mentioned both .223 and .308 - it WILL require forensic analysis of the fragments merely to match them to a particular caliber - let alone a particular firearm.  How many guns went unfired?  (That is a certainly - not every gun got used.)  It may well be over a year before a definitive chain of events exists merely for the last hour of the life of the shooter - and we know exactly where he was.  How many POLITICIANS are willing to wait that long?  (There is certainly a reason why I specified "politicians" - the only thing the detailed analysis can possibly lead to is legislation.  The shooter himself is dead - basically you can't arraign a corpse. If he himself broke ANY laws enroute, it can certainly be said that they didn't even slow him down - let alone stop him - it is also a crapshoot as to whether ANY law would have - ANY argument saying that it would have is emotional at best, and has to assume that the suspect is sane; an unsound mind is anything but sane in the classical sense - how do you stop the unsound mind from carrying out such an act?

[Jim K Global Moderator]

30 minutes ago, PGHammer said:

When was the report you quoted?  Not disputing it - it's why I'm asking "when".  If you are talking about an earlier presser, TCE may have happened (because I DO remember similar numbers from earlier pressers) .  TCE happens during firefights (too many reports of it to dispute it - and this certainly qualifies) - it's why when you go back and start piecing events together that the actual time-chain looks out of whack - because real-time vs. apparent-time IS out of whack.

3:30 into this briefing from last night.

 

 

The suspect fired off and on anywhere between 9 and 11 minutes.

[dead.cell]

14 minutes ago, PGHammer said:

He had different gun calibers in his stash - CCSO themselves mentioned both .223 and .308 - it WILL require forensic analysis of the fragments merely to match them to a particular caliber - let alone a particular firearm.  How many guns went unfired?  (That is a certainly - not every gun got used.)  It may well be over a year before a definitive chain of events exists merely for the last hour of the life of the shooter - and we know exactly where he was.  How many POLITICIANS are willing to wait that long?  (There is certainly a reason why I specified "politicians" - the only thing the detailed analysis can possibly lead to is legislation.  The shooter himself is dead - basically you can't arraign a corpse. If he himself broke ANY laws enroute, it can certainly be said that they didn't even slow him down - let alone stop him - it is also a crapshoot as to whether ANY law would have - ANY argument saying that it would have is emotional at best, and has to assume that the suspect is sane; an unsound mind is anything but sane in the classical sense - how do you stop the unsound mind from carrying out such an act?

Yeah, I'm aware. I was talking in relation to people who said it sounded like you could hear two different guns firing at the same time.

[The Evil Overlord]

9 minutes ago, dead.cell said:

Yeah, I'm aware. I was talking in relation to people who said it sounded like you could hear two different guns firing at the same time.

Yeah, I wouldn't hold too much stock in that, even I would dispute 2 rifles being fired simultaneously, on the grounds that I am aware of the mechanics involved in firing one of those weapons on full auto, and I've never held one of those rifles, let alone fired one. The recoil alone would make firing them in a forward direction alone would be nigh impossible unless the user was as strong as Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime. If I remember a conversation I had once correctly, ar15s aren't recoilless. (Though I may be wrong about this)

[Jim K Global Moderator]

11 minutes ago, dead.cell said:

Yeah, I'm aware. I was talking in relation to people who said it sounded like you could hear two different guns firing at the same time.

Yea...not buying into the two guns firing ... sounded like echos to me (from the videos I've seen posted anyway).  Unless the LVMPD says otherwise during their investigation.

[dead.cell]

Just now, Jim K said:

Yea...not buying into the two guns firing ... sounded like echos to me (from the videos I've seen posted anyway).  Unless the LVMPD says otherwise during their investigation.

Me either; I was just sharing why some people might make that assumption from the cellphone vids. Conspiracies get rather crazy...

 

Also, thanks for sharing that video. It's quite chilling from the officer's perspective too. People didn't seem to believe them, as if the cops are just gonna duck to play make believe.

6 minutes ago, The Evil Overlord said:

Yeah, I wouldn't hold too much stock in that, even I would dispute 2 rifles being fired simultaneously, on the grounds that I am aware of the mechanics involved in firing one of those weapons on full auto, and I've never held one of those rifles, let alone fired one. The recoil alone would make firing them in a forward direction alone would be nigh impossible unless the user was as strong as Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime. If I remember a conversation I had once correctly, ar15s aren't recoilless. (Though I may be wrong about this)

lol, no way one person would fire two. The recoil on the AR15 is pretty negligible, but you still have to hold it properly to aim. (I've shot a few personally)

[Circaflex]

I still don't really understand how "bump" firing works. I saw the video in here, but I still don't understand how it really works. Semi-auto guns, correct me if I am wrong because I am not all that educated with them, can fire as fast as you can pull the trigger right? Does this mean, when bump firing you essentially fire a round and leave your finger very close to the trigger, when the recoil happens it pushes the gun forward enough to press down on the trigger again, firing another bullet? Sorry if that made zero sense.

[dead.cell]

17 minutes ago, Circaflex said:

I still don't really understand how "bump" firing works. I saw the video in here, but I still don't understand how it really works. Semi-auto guns, correct me if I am wrong because I am not all that educated with them, can fire as fast as you can pull the trigger right? Does this mean, when bump firing you essentially fire a round and leave your finger very close to the trigger, when the recoil happens it pushes the gun forward enough to press down on the trigger again, firing another bullet? Sorry if that made zero sense.

Basically. Poor man's bump fire often involves putting a thumb through the trigger guard, and hooking it onto your belt loop or pocket. So when you pull the gun forward, your thumb will pull the trigger, and the recoil will cause it to continue firing so long as you hold your position.

 

Problem with this is you're firing from the hip essentially. That's where modifications to the gun/stock come in, which can help recreate that scenario, giving semblance to being an automatic.  Binary firing systems also exist, which is a different way of increasing rate of fire by firing a round on trigger pull and trigger release.  More on this if you're interested below, but I don't know that they're reliable enough to be effective.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2017 by dead.cell

[PGHammer]

35 minutes ago, The Evil Overlord said:

Yeah, I wouldn't hold too much stock in that, even I would dispute 2 rifles being fired simultaneously, on the grounds that I am aware of the mechanics involved in firing one of those weapons on full auto, and I've never held one of those rifles, let alone fired one. The recoil alone would make firing them in a forward direction alone would be nigh impossible unless the user was as strong as Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime. If I remember a conversation I had once correctly, ar15s aren't recoilless. (Though I may be wrong about this)

They are certainly NOT lacking recoil - not even the clones in .22LR rimfire - let alone any in .223; I have fired both sorts personally of the unmodified sort.  Even the "bump stock" modded video shows that much - if anything, it illustrates the amount of recoil still present - which actually DRIVES the "bump-stock" action; basically, without recoil, a "bump-stock" wouldn't work. (Nutshell-dump mechanics - a "bump-stock" transmits the recoil to the stock - which is itself "floating" - not fixed; it is a modified telescoping (carbine) stock.)  The telescoping stock is legal in semi-automatic in most jurisdictions (the exceptions are New York state and California - both of which ban ANY form of telescoping stock).  Not ALL telescoping stocks are "bump-stocks"; they start WITH the telescoping stock - but they themselves are not.  For example - the AR-15 H-BAR (Heavy Barrel) used to be mostly sold with a telescoping stock .  "Bump-stocks" aren't obvious - how do you tell them from a standard telescoping stock when at rest?  That may well be the REAL issue - they AREN'T obvious.

 

[PGHammer]

1 hour ago, Jim K said:

3:30 into this briefing from last night.

 

 

The suspect fired off and on anywhere between 9 and 11 minutes.

Still, eleven minutes is a LONG way from the over twenty-plus minutes it took SWAT to arrive.  That is why the timeframe when the bullet entered the suspect (the cause of death) is critical - and we may be a LONG way from that.  If the suspect himself ate the gun, we're a LONG way from any definitive triggering event - we may have to wait for toxicology from the Clark County coroner - or even the FBI.  Way too many questions - not enough answers - let alone answers that are logical.  Despite the passage of time, and technology improvements, this is, if anything, WORSE than ANY of the previous mass shootings United States (going back to the Clocktower Shooting) simply due to too many things not adding up.

[ThisSiteHasLostItsCharm]

On ‎03‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 9:19 PM, Emn1ty said:

This is a fantastic way to dismiss valid opinions without having to put any actual effort into countering it. You can most definitely argue both sides of the coin, it's just a cop out to paint those who don't agree with you as irrational.

it's the truth though, when people actually do something worthwhile to combat all the bad stuff around the world, things will get better for everyone. too many bs laws and red tape over everything these days.

[Jim K Global Moderator]

5 minutes ago, PGHammer said:

Still, eleven minutes is a LONG way from the over twenty-plus minutes it took SWAT to arrive.  That is why the timeframe when the bullet entered the suspect (the cause of death) is critical - and we may be a LONG way from that.  If the suspect himself ate the gun, we're a LONG way from any definitive triggering event - we may have to wait for toxicology from the Clark County coroner - or even the FBI.  Way too many questions - not enough answers - let alone answers that are logical.  Despite the passage of time, and technology improvements, this is, if anything, WORSE than ANY of the previous mass shootings United States (going back to the Clocktower Shooting) simply due to too many things not adding up.

...and much longer than the "less than one minute" you stated earlier. 

 

The Sheriff explained the situation and their actions (including the SWAT timeframe/reasoning).

[exotoxic]

As a starting point how about changing attitudes towards guns?? They are deadly weapons designed specifically to kill not toys to show off and wave around to make you feel like a big man. Combatting criminals?? Nope, they just come with bigger guns and better tactics.

[+Raze Subscriber²]

2 minutes ago, exotoxic said:

As a starting point how about changing attitudes towards guns?? They are deadly weapons designed specifically to kill not toys to show off and wave around to make you feel like a big man. Combatting criminals?? Nope, they just come with bigger guns and better tactics.

Before anyone gets into trouble, please see this.

 

 

[T3X4S]

When it was first happening, there were tweets coming in - thats all anyone had to see the panic.  One of the vids, you could hear some guy with a very effeminate voice saying (with a lisp) "those aren't real gun shots"  "why is everybody panicking ?   those aren't real"

My thought was, "yeah, like Im gonna take his advice on what real gun shots sound like"

[The Evil Overlord]

12 minutes ago, T3X4S said:

When it was first happening, there were tweets coming in - thats all anyone had to see the panic.  One of the vids, you could hear some guy with a very effeminate voice saying (with a lisp) "those aren't real gun shots"  "why is everybody panicking ?   those aren't real"

My thought was, "yeah, like Im gonna take his advice on what real gun shots sound like"

Initially someone said they were firecrackers in one of the early videos, seeing as he was 30some floors up, and in a hotel 50-100 yards away, I can understand the confusion, as no one was expecting there to be full automatic gunfire.

[PGHammer]

5 hours ago, Jim K said:

...and much longer than the "less than one minute" you stated earlier. 

 

The Sheriff explained the situation and their actions (including the SWAT timeframe/reasoning).

I'm not debating why SWAT took as long as it did - that WOULD be rather stupid.  In fact, kudos to ALL the first-responders for keeping cool heads - which is more than I can say for the outside pundits - including the outside politicians.  If anything, I would suggest the political types pay serious attention to Nevada's lieutenant governor - who calls Las Vegas home - notice his absence from the pro-gun-control bandwagon.  Pro-Second Amendment Democrats' absence (such as Senator Joe Manchin) - speaks for itself - that needs absolutely no defense from me.  I would, in fact, be donating blood myself - however, being on anti-hypertension medication precludes me.  (I was an active blood donor beforehand.)

[+Raze Subscriber²]

54 minutes ago, T3X4S said:

When it was first happening, there were tweets coming in - thats all anyone had to see the panic.  One of the vids, you could hear some guy with a very effeminate voice saying (with a lisp) "those aren't real gun shots"  "why is everybody panicking ?   those aren't real"

My thought was, "yeah, like Im gonna take his advice on what real gun shots sound like"

Tell me your joking, please.

 

The fact he sounded effeminate and lisping means nothing.  Many thought they were fireworks with the show.  And with the music coming from the stage and the distance the shooter was from the concert goers, it's no wonder many were confused as to what was actually happening.  The shooter was 355 to 365 meters from the concert.

[Jim K Global Moderator]

1 hour ago, PGHammer said:

I'm not debating why SWAT took as long as it did - that WOULD be rather stupid.  In fact, kudos to ALL the first-responders for keeping cool heads - which is more than I can say for the outside pundits - including the outside politicians.  If anything, I would suggest the political types pay serious attention to Nevada's lieutenant governor - who calls Las Vegas home - notice his absence from the pro-gun-control bandwagon.  Pro-Second Amendment Democrats' absence (such as Senator Joe Manchin) - speaks for itself - that needs absolutely no defense from me.  I would, in fact, be donating blood myself - however, being on anti-hypertension medication precludes me.  (I was an active blood donor beforehand.)

What are you debating?  Anyway, I was just pointing out the error in one of your comments (that the shooting lasted less than a minute) ... no idea what all this other stuff has been about.

[T3X4S]

1 hour ago, The Evil Overlord said:

Initially someone said they were firecrackers in one of the early videos, seeing as he was 30some floors up, and in a hotel 50-100 yards away, I can understand the confusion, as no one was expecting there to be full automatic gunfire.

 

25 minutes ago, Raze said:

Tell me your joking, please.

 

The fact he sounded effeminate and lisping means nothing.  Many thought they were fireworks with the show.  And with the music coming from the stage and the distance the shooter was from the concert goers, it's no wonder many were confused as to what was actually happening.  The shooter was 355 to 365 meters from the concert.

Let me preface this by saying I have absolutely nothing against homosexuality.  I have gay friends, had 2 gay bosses, & when I mentioned this very thing to my gay friend - he thought it was funny as well.

Yes its all about presentation as this is a serious matter - but when he saw what I was talking about (and it was after the music stopped) - he saw the humor in it as well.

AGAIN - I realize what was happening was horrific, and maybe its "too soon" or maybe its tasteless, period..... hell maybe I shouldnt have posted it because intent, intonation, jest, and all the other passive mannerisms I am thinking of right now cant be conveyed in a text - and I understand it is a "you had to be there to see what Im talking about to appreciate it" - but I have already posted it and am just trying to explain - if you were there - you would see I am not trying to be malicious and admittedly have a dark sense of humor - but - it was funny.