59 dead after shooting on Las Vegas Strip; suspect ID'd

[Slugsie]

11 hours ago, PGHammer said:

The problem is what can be done that doesn't trample on existing rights.  Like it or not, there are some things that simply won't fly.  The modifications - if he did them himself, he broke the law; however, the knowledge of HOW to do it is somewhere on the Internet (not even the dark web) - you going to give the Internet a bath? (Would that even be legal?)  The guy's record was clean - not even any MH background issues.  (That can't be said by a lot of politicians.  The limits on what is permissible exist for valid reasons - whether we like them or not.

So are you saying that no attempt to remedy the problem should be made?

 

Again, I am not suggesting what form the solution should take, just that all sides should agree that something needs to be done, and to start to work on a way to do it.

11 hours ago, Zagadka said:

snip

Those 50 white guys (yes, I'm assuming gender) are the ones with the mental health issues. Don't you know anything? /s

Edited October 3, 2017 by Andrew

[+Zagadka Subscriber²]

3 minutes ago, Slugsie said:

Those 50 white guys (yes, I'm assuming gender) are the ones with the mental health issues. Don't you know anything? /s

heh, then white people have a really big problem with mental health ;-)

[PGHammer]

19 minutes ago, Nashy said:

 

Don't feed me your rubbish.

I don't want them not to exist, I want military and police to have access to semi and fully automatic.  You don't need a semi or fully automatic rifle.  No normal person does.

Australia doesn't have the same history.  What sort of absolute garbage reasoning is that?

You know what happens when guns are banned?  The prices sky rocket on the black market.  It's far harder to pay $15k in Australia on the black market for an AR15 than a few hundred in America.  Deadset.  You can keep your guns, just these super ######ed up kill 59 people in 3 minutes ones, they have to go.

As far as I'm concerned, you have no argument.  You can disagree, but you're wrong.

Nashy - one of folks at the presser was the Clark County Sheriff - he has a hunting background; however, he certainly doesn't hunt On The Job.  Are you going to inconvenience him (and other hunters in law enforcement) due to a few folks that are unpredictable?  (His record was clean - cleaner than mine, for that matter; while I have previous MH issues, he didn't even have that.)  Never mind that hand-conversions are already illegal - and have, in fact, BEEN illegal since 1986; at worst, he could be gotten for that - you want to arraign his corpse?  (He's dead - therefore, unchargeable with even that.)

[trag3dy]

7 minutes ago, Zagadka said:

heh, then white people have a really big problem with mental health ;-)

Considering white people make up the large majority of the population in the US...

[+Zagadka Subscriber²]

1 minute ago, trag3dy said:

Considering white people make up the large majority of the population in the US...

And the statistics bear that out. I am not the one who made the implication that shootings were "black gang violence, Islamic violence, and mentally ill violence"

[PGHammer]

1 minute ago, trag3dy said:

Considering white people make up the large majority of the population in the US...

And you want to FORCE mental-health evaluations on the nation at large -  I can't think of a judge that would want such a case on their docket - not in ANY state.

[trag3dy]

2 minutes ago, Zagadka said:

And the statistics bear that out. I am not the one who made the implication that shootings were "black gang violence, Islamic violence, and mentally ill violence"

Fair enough.

[+Zagadka Subscriber²]

11 hours ago, oldtimefighter said:

Why wasn't all of the crowd armed? They could have returned a rain of hellfire back that could have left Mandalay Bay Casino in rumble within minutes.

This is the problem with the "if everyone was armed these things wouldn't happen"... had everyone been armed, in the panic, a lot more people would be shot on reaction and catching strays. Even if the crowd knew WHERE to shoot (a guy on the 31st floor of a large building?), their pepper spray would also decimate a cone around him, especially if they were firing with pistols. They could have all been conceal carrying and it would have made no difference, if not worse.

 

* I am not saying that people having guns won't stop "lesser" crimes, just mass shootings, where this argument always comes up

[Slugsie]

A quick google search on the link between mental health and mass shootings suggests that the link is a lot less certain than the public might tend to believe.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/most-mass-shooters-arent-mentally-ill-so-why-push-better-treatment-as-the-answer/2016/05/17/70034918-1308-11e6-8967-7ac733c56f12_story.html?utm_term=.7433823e440c

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4318286/

 

*Note, it's very late for me, I'm tired, and I only skimmed the articles. 

[DocM]

1 hour ago, Nashy said:

Any excuse will do aye DOCM?  Any excuse.  Gun control won't work, will never work, will never make it batter, Australia isn't an example of how it can work, excuse, excuse, excuse, please don't take my guns away.

 

Not excuses, reasons. There's a difference, try figuring it out.

 

Australia does not have a border with another country across which contraband can come across largely unimpeded. Therefore, even if you could collect all 300 million firearms in this country replacing them would be a trivial effort for criminals or psychos - not to mention the dowbright silly notion by anti-firearms advoctes have that they would give their guns up to begin with.

 

From the Harvard Injury Control Research Center in 2011, but other studies and reviews are similar

 

https://cdn1.sph.harvard.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/1264/2012/10/bulletins_australia_spring_2011.pdf

 

Quote

IV. Conclusion

 

It does not appear that the Australian experience with gun buybacks is fully replicable in the United 
States. Levitt provides three reasons why gun buybacks in the United States have apparently been ineffective: (a) the buybacks are relatively small in scale (b) guns are surrendered voluntarily, and so are not like the ones used in crime; and (c) replacement guns are easy to obtain.
 
Thesefactors did not 
apply to the Australian buyback, which was large, compulsory, and the guns on this island nation 
could not easily be replaced. For example, compared to the buyback of 650,000 firearms, annual imports after the law averaged only 30,000 per year, with many of these bought by law enforcement agencies.

For Australia, a difficulty with determining the effect of the law was that gun deaths were falling in the early 1990s. No study has explained why gun deaths were falling, or why they might be expected to  continue to fall. Yet most studies generally assumed that they would have continued to drop without the NFA. Many studies still found strong evidence for a beneficial effect of the law. From the perspective of 1996, it would have been difficult to imagine more compelling future 
evidence of a beneficial effect of the law. Whether or not one wants to attribute the effects as being due to the law, everyone should be pleased with what happened in Australia after the NFA—the 
elimination of firearm massacres (at least up to the present) and an immediate, and continuing, reduction in firearm suicide and firearm homicide.

 

 

Edited October 2, 2017 by DocM

[trag3dy]

1 minute ago, Slugsie said:

A quick google search on the link between mental health and mass shootings suggests that the link is a lot less certain than the public might tend to believe.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/most-mass-shooters-arent-mentally-ill-so-why-push-better-treatment-as-the-answer/2016/05/17/70034918-1308-11e6-8967-7ac733c56f12_story.html?utm_term=.7433823e440c

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4318286/

 

*Note, it's very late for me, I'm tired, and I only skimmed the articles. 

I have trouble believing a sane, logical, and rational person can justify doing something like this. At the very least one would have to be a sociopath (in my unprofessional opinion).

[JoseyWales]

Look at all the gun grabbers spewing even before the blood has dried..

 

Little FYI.. Room was full of anti-fa propaganda and the guy was shot by an FBI hostage team, he did not kill himself. Another left winger has gone off the rails and the press and politicians are pulling out the "never let a good tragedy go to waste" handbook..

 

A perfect example of what all the fake news and hype created by the MSM propaganda machine will get you. A nut job out to kill all the "white Nazi scum"  at a "racist" country concert. I watched them early this morning reporting on it, they were giddy.. It was sickening to watch..

[kcbworth]

2 minutes ago, JoseyWales said:

Look at all the gun grabbers spewing even before the blood has dried..

 

Little FYI.. Room was full of anti-fa propaganda and the guy was shot by an FBI hostage team, he did not kill himself. Another left winger has gone off the rails and the press and politicians are pulling out the "never let a good tragedy go to waste" handbook..

 

A perfect example of what all the fake news and hype created by the MSM propaganda machine will get you. A nut job out to kill all the "white Nazi scum"  at a "racist" country concert. I watched them early this morning reporting on it, they were giddy.. It was sickening to watch..

What the ######

[+Red King Subscriber²]

Quote

 

While the rest of the nation mourned the stunning mass shooting that killed more than 50 people and injured hundreds more, a CBS executive on Monday whacked the victims.

As first reported by the Daily Caller, Hayley Geftman-Gold posted on her Facebook page that she had no sympathy for the victims, who were attending a country music festival Sunday on the Las Vegas Strip.

 

http://www.lifezette.com/polizette/cbs-exec-fired-after-dissing-vegas-shooting-victims/

http://www.businessinsider.com/las-vegas-shooting-cbs-hayley-geftman-gold-2017-10 (Doesn't work with uBlock)

[wakjak]

11 minutes ago, kcbworth said:

What the ######

Don't mind them, they're part of the mentally ill. Everything is the fault of a liberal scumbag. Blah blah blah, broken record. 

 

Edit : yay I got a thumb down from the guy who said we should get rid of Blacks and Muslims. 

[+Zagadka Subscriber²]

Just now, J. X. Maxwell said:

http://www.lifezette.com/polizette/cbs-exec-fired-after-dissing-vegas-shooting-victims/

http://www.businessinsider.com/las-vegas-shooting-cbs-hayley-geftman-gold-2017-10 (Doesn't work with uBlock)

Yea, that was just... horrible. Horrible, horrible person.

[wakjak]

Just now, J. X. Maxwell said:

http://www.lifezette.com/polizette/cbs-exec-fired-after-dissing-vegas-shooting-victims/

http://www.businessinsider.com/las-vegas-shooting-cbs-hayley-geftman-gold-2017-10 (Doesn't work with uBlock)

And they were fired immediately for it. Point being? 

[Slugsie]

13 minutes ago, JoseyWales said:

Little FYI.. Room was full of anti-fa propaganda and the guy was shot by an FBI hostage team, he did not kill himself. Another left winger has gone off the rails and the press and politicians are pulling out the "never let a good tragedy go to waste" handbook..

You got a reputable source on any of that? Every single news outlet I've checked says he was dead when they entered the room, although early reports said police shot him. Not one single report of any "anti-fa" material anywhere.

[+Zagadka Subscriber²]

I would really hate to be the person in charge of this investigation. If we ever find out the story behind why this happened... About the only lead is that woman yelling that people were going to die before the shootings, and that isn't much of a lead, even if it is connected.

[The Evil Overlord]

Regarding a post made a couple of pages back, the M16 has selective fire I believe, and can be 'locked' to single fire semi automatic, (effectively turning it into an overpowered ar15, of sorts) but like docm said, it is actually easy to reverse this 'lockout' if someone is competent.

[JoseyWales]

4 minutes ago, The Evil Overlord said:

Regarding a post made a couple of pages back, the M16 has selective fire I believe, and can be 'locked' to single fire semi automatic, (effectively turning it into an overpowered ar15, of sorts) but like docm said, it is actually easy to reverse this 'lockout' if someone is competent.

The ar-15 and m-16, while similar, are not the same and an AR can not be simply converted by tweaking it. Many parts have to be replaced and most 15's these days have to be milled to accommodate the different selector mechanism.

 

Back when they first came out you could tape two dimes behind the trigger on the guard and they would effectively fire full auto. That has since been designed out of them, the same as being able to easily convert one to full auto by swapping out parts. It can be done, just not easily..

[The Evil Overlord]

Just now, JoseyWales said:

The ar-15 and m-16, while similar, are not the same and an AR can not be simply converted by tweaking it. Many parts have to be replaced and most 15's these days have to be milled to accommodate the different selector mechanism.

 

Back when they first came out you could tape two dimes behind the trigger on the guard and they would effectively fire full auto. That has since been designed out of them, the same as being able to easily convert one to full auto by swapping out parts. It can be done, just not easily..

I did say, 'of sorts', I know they're 2 different beasts, I was merely trying to keep my response as simple as I could imagine.

[Memphis]

While it may be true, it's a poor time to make that comment.  It didn't really make sense to play the speculation game.  Anyone could easily say that the death toll would be higher if the assailants have grenades, helicopters and hellfire missiles, but it would be extremely poor taste as a political figure to bring that up when people are dead and dying.

 

It's actually spot on, the report I heard says they initially found him not due to people in the hotel reporting him, but the flash of the weapon visible from the ground. A suppressor would have made that an impossible way to locate him. Yeah it would eventually melt, but the question would be how many rounds (or different guns given he had ten) could he have gone through to suppress the flash before they all melted and he had a flash again?

 

[The Evil Overlord]

Just now, sidroc said:

 

It's actually spot on, the report I heard says they initially found him not due to people in the hotel reporting him, but the flash of the weapon visible from the ground. A suppressor would have made that an impossible way to locate him.

 

Weapon sound suppression of any kind has diminishing results when the waepon is fired full auto, there's a youtube video a page or 2 back.

I wouldn't take that other part as gospel neither, as unless you have intimate knowlege of the floorplan of the hotel, you cannot say where he is in the hotel apart from saying something like.. "he's there, 30 floors up, the broken window"

[Memphis]

Weapon sound suppression of any kind has diminishing results when the waepon is fired full auto, there's a youtube video a page or 2 back.
I wouldn't take that other part as gospel neither, as unless you have intimate knowlege of the floorplan of the hotel, you cannot say where he is in the hotel apart from saying something like.. "he's there, 30 floors up, the broken window"

Sound suppression is not what I was talking about, only an idiot uses a firearm with a suppressor for that. They identified which building he was in too from the flash. Obviously they would have figured these things out anyways, but it very well could have taken longer and yeah that is a what if, but that is exactly why wupressors are used at night, to gain previous time before detection of which way you are firing from.