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Jerry Jones gives Cowboys players ultimatum: Stand for anthem or sit for game

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oldtimefighter    3,070
19 minutes ago, Astra.Xtreme said:

Oh really, so now my "dumb ######" comment is racist?  Please please explain that one for us.  I'm very interested in hearing what you have to say on that one...

 

First personal attack tactics and now you're wrongfully pulling the race card?  Do you even listen to yourself?  All that without even the slightest attempt at providing an explanation or adding to the conversation.  If you're just going to run your mouth with childish remarks, don't waste our time.

Explanation? Again? OK? Let's quote you again first...

4 hours ago, Astra.Xtreme said:

Last I checked, minorities in the USA are more privileged and treated more equally than ever before in this country's history.  Sure there is still progress to be made, but the population isn't fighting against them.  The high crime rates and constant victim mentality aren't helping their case.

Blacks are more privileged? WTF? Fun fact... News flash! Blacks don't want to be treated more equal than ever before but want to be treated as equals. #facepalm No, they don't have to shut up because some white people don't like to hear about it. "High crime rates" are irrelevant and have more to do with economic situations than race or are you saying black people are more prone to crime and that is not racist either?

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Astra.Xtreme    2,794
19 minutes ago, oldtimefighter said:

Explanation? Again? OK? Let's quote you again first...

Blacks are more privileged? WTF? Fun fact... News flash! Blacks don't want to be treated more equal than ever before but want to be treated as equals. #facepalm No, they don't have to shut up because some white people don't like to hear about it. 

Well let's see....  Where are we today vs 60 years ago?  Or even 10 years ago?  And you realize this isn't just about blacks, right?  You know, since they aren't the only minority group in the USA...  Overall the trend continues to increase with minority groups having people of influence whether it be athletes, political figures, musicians, successful role models, etc etc.  Again, nobody is trying to push these people down.  We all have the same opportunities in this country.  What else are we possibly supposed to do?  So I'll say it again... who are they fighting against?  It's sure looking like they don't even know.  This is why people are frustrated over it.  They're complaining to nobody and doing nothing to try to fix it.

 

And I'll say it to you again....  a millionaire black athlete complaining about racial oppression is pretty ironic and solves NOTHING....

 

19 minutes ago, oldtimefighter said:

"High crime rates" are irrelevant and have more to do with economic situations than race or are you saying black people are more prone to crime and that is not racist either?

Um statistics...  It's not racist to say that a certain demographic commits the most crime. Those are just facts.  And seeing as some real racism is based on facts, if the statistics decrease, there is less reason for the discrimination.  Fixing one will naturally fix the other, but it still has to start there.  http://www.naacp.org/criminal-justice-fact-sheet/  These things are shame and everybody should be working to fix them.  If everybody is to be treated the same, then we should act and treat others the same.  THIS INCLUDES EVERYBODY.  That's just common sense...

 

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techbeck    6,908
1 hour ago, Depicus said:

"...The men and women (veterans) who got ###### off for people standing and who took offense to it...."

 

I think you did........

Nope, never said all of them or else that is what I would have said. Saying veterans, plural, does not mean every veteran of else again, I would have said all.  Plural means more than one.  Some don't mind, some do. 

Edited by techbeck

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benthebear    315
6 hours ago, Circaflex said:

No it is not the same thing. For every offended Veteran there is another non-offended veteran. Not everyone who has served finds this disrespectful, there are many who have voiced their opinion in support of these peaceful protests.

I'm one of those non-offended veterans. You can't mandate patriotism. Period.

 

Well, not at the Government level.

 

In basic training we were told that regardless of what our career field was, our main job was to break sh-- and kill people to protect the Constitution. Not the flag and not the anthem. It was drilled into us that people would use the rights granted to them by the Constitution in ways that we, personally, would not always agree with, but we would have no issue dying for their right to do so. 

 

Do I take offense to people who kneel during the anthem, or sit for the pledge? Hell no. That was the point of the sacrifice. For people to be able to express themselves how ever they see fit. If you're a veteran who does take offense, then I think you missed the whole point of your enlistment.

 

There's no right time or place for a peaceful protest. It's when ever you want it to be. Now, yeah, I see what Jerry Jones is doing, and it's his very right to enforce whatever policy (within the law) he wants. But I take great issue when elected officials from the branches of Government start calling for action against people who exercise their rights and aren't breaking any laws.  

 

And finally, I roll my eyes when ever someone say, "but the soldiers!" Please. I invite you to go to any military installation's BX/PX around the time of Retreat. You'll see plenty of service people messing around inside, or running to get inside, so that they don't have to be outside to face the flag (or direction of music) to render a salute during the anthem. It's kind of comical to watch.

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+Human.Online    8,443
10 hours ago, techbeck said:

Nope, never said all of them or else that is what I would have said. Saying veterans, plural, does not mean every veteran of else again, I would have said all.  Plural means more than one.  Some don't mind, some do. 

Without qualification (such as "some", "many"), using the plural refers to the group as a general whole.

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Depicus    946

I see the Donald has just tweeted "Why is the NFL getting massive tax breaks while at the same time disrespecting our Anthem, Flag and Country? Change tax law!"

 

Where as a good leader would ask "Why is the NFL getting massive tax breaks? Change tax law!"

 

And benthebear yes nothing has changed, in the 1980's I worked with US forces in Germany and exactly the same thing happened then, everybody disappeared when they came to lower the flag at the end of the day.

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Jason S.    1,499

This thread has totally derailed. Let's get it back on track or it'll be locked. Thank you.

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+Raze    16,619
23 hours ago, techbeck said:

Of course....and glad he said something.   People were just getting more upset and angry and causing more issues.
 

Peaceful, sure, right time/place, no.  Also, I am curious how many of these players are actually doing something outside if the NFL and not just 2min per week as a "look at me" stunt.  Kaepernick didnt do anything at first, but now he is and I applaud him for it.  Standing around accomplishes very little, if anything at all.

 

The NFL and the players are very much involved in outside charitable activities and giving back to their communities and have been for decades.  Here are just a few examples -

 

https://www.looktothestars.org/news/14160-which-nfl-player-gives-the-most-to-charity

 

https://www.sbnation.com/2017/8/29/16220676/athletes-teams-contributions-charities-houston-flood-hurricane-harvey

 

https://www.sbnation.com/2017/9/29/16375378/nfl-players-charity-donations-jj-watt-hurricane-harvey-patrick-peterson-foundation

 

http://www.nflfoundation.org/community

 

http://www.nflfoundation.org/

 

https://www.nflpa.com/community-mvp

 

http://proplayerinsiders.com/nfl-player-team-news-features/making-impact-top-10-nfl-player-foundations/

 

 

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+ncoday    432
21 hours ago, oldtimefighter said:

Which profession doesn't have convicted felons again? Do you have stats showing the NFL has a higher rate of convicted felons than other professions? http://www.utdallas.edu/news/2015/8/25-31660_UT-Dallas-Criminologist-Tackles-Perception-of-NFL-_story-wide.html

 

The military does have exceptions to disallow convicted felons to serve but that is not absolute and in fact we do have convicted felons serving in the military. Oh yeah... It's not only convicted felons that have problems with law enforcement.

 

I know thinking is HARD but please try to make a better point in the future.

I don't know, we're not talking about every profession, we're just talking about the NFL. Also didn't say they have a higher rate, just that it is hard to take someone seriously when they complain about the police when they themselves are convicts.

 

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+ncoday    432
1 hour ago, Raze said:

I wonder how much of that is mandated by the team/league and how much was actually done out of the charity of their own heart, such as what JJ Watt did. 

 

Just like with every profession, there are a few bad apples, but in general all the police & NFL players are good people. However, what we have here is the NFL lumping all police into the same bucket and saying all of them are crooked.

 

Kind of hypocritical wouldn't you say?

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oldtimefighter    3,070
19 minutes ago, ncoday said:

I don't know, we're not talking about every profession, we're just talking about the NFL. Also didn't say they have a higher rate, just that it is hard to take someone seriously when they complain about the police when they themselves are convicts.

 

It's hard to take you seriously when you state something that is irrelevant and totally false. Who are these convicts you speak of? I provided a link showing NFL felony rates among players is lower than the general public. The reason the players are protesting is because of racial injustice they have experienced in life and/or to their family and friends.

Edited by oldtimefighter
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techbeck    6,908
6 hours ago, Nefarious Trigger said:

Without qualification (such as "some", "many"), using the plural refers to the group as a general whole.

Assuming a lot, but fair enough I guess.

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+ncoday    432
14 minutes ago, oldtimefighter said:

It's hard to take you seriously when you state something that is irrelevant and totally false. Who are these convicts you speak of? I provided a link showing NFL felony rates among players is lower than the general public. The reason the players are protesting is because of racial injustice they have experienced in life and/or to their family and friends.

How about this?

https://www.usatoday.com/sports/nfl/arrests/

 

Or this one where Michael Bennett from the Seahwaks claimed he was mistreated, but when the police released the body cam footage, he suddenly shut up and stopped spewing lies:

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2017/09/29/nfl-player-owes-las-vegas-cops-apology-union-leader-says.html

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oldtimefighter    3,070
57 minutes ago, ncoday said:

How about this?

https://www.usatoday.com/sports/nfl/arrests/

 

Or this one where Michael Bennett from the Seahwaks claimed he was mistreated, but when the police released the body cam footage, he suddenly shut up and stopped spewing lies:

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2017/09/29/nfl-player-owes-las-vegas-cops-apology-union-leader-says.html

Why do I care about arrests (aka only SOME are felony convictions) of NFL players over the last 17 years? Most of these players are NOT in the league anymore let alone taking a knee on game day. LOL Michael Bennett? Are we moving away from NFL players convicted of felonies now? He has none and the incident in question is still under investigation. He is not even protesting because of the police but the violence in Charlottesville. I am not interested in any other replies from you unless you have some actual facts or relevant information in regards to your original point.

Edited by oldtimefighter

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+Human.Online    8,443
1 hour ago, techbeck said:

Assuming a lot, but fair enough I guess.

Yes, it is an assumption.  But it's a prevalent assumption, which tends to define the way that the majority interpret language.  Some would call it a structure or a rule.

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+Fulcrum    201
1 hour ago, ncoday said:

This one was DISGUSTING. And then they hired him again!

image.thumb.png.6502a8f2d75853d58fc52dcec2be435b.png

19 hours ago, Astra.Xtreme said:

Um statistics...  It's not racist to say that a certain demographic commits the most crime. Those are just facts.  And seeing as some real racism is based on facts, if the statistics decrease, there is less reason for the discrimination.  Fixing one will naturally fix the other, but it still has to start there.  http://www.naacp.org/criminal-justice-fact-sheet/  These things are shame and everybody should be working to fix them.  If everybody is to be treated the same, then we should act and treat others the same.  THIS INCLUDES EVERYBODY.  That's just common sense...

It's not racist to say a certain demographic commits the most crime, but it's at least not wholly factual once you look at the contributing factors which your NAACP link describes. It's not racist, it's a little misleading, and if you take it in and of itself, you are WRONG, and would not serve the thesis of a research paper supported by the facts in the NAACP link you provided.

 

I think the only thing you need to know is the protesting is an effort to bring attention to legislation which is described in your NAACP link, and this is how laws are changed.

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+Raze    16,619
2 hours ago, ncoday said:

I wonder how much of that is mandated by the team/league and how much was actually done out of the charity of their own heart, such as what JJ Watt did. 

 

Just like with every profession, there are a few bad apples, but in general all the police & NFL players are good people. However, what we have here is the NFL lumping all police into the same bucket and saying all of them are crooked.

 

Kind of hypocritical wouldn't you say?

I've not heard or read of anything that would suggest the NFL is mandating anything in regards to the players charitable activities.   And I haven't seen anything from the NFL or players saying all of the police are crooked.

 

Do you have any sources for these things?

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Rippleman    3,850
On 10/9/2017 at 10:27 AM, oldtimefighter said:

What? No it is not... LOL These protests have NOTHING to do with the flag or the anthem. People who block streets during an act of civil disobedience are not protesting streets.

 

Are you the official spokesperson for ALL veterans or something? I heard from DOZENS of actual veterans (some I know personally) who have said they have no problem with the protests and in fact that is why they fought which is to preserve our freedoms.

One could reverse the question: Are you spokesperson for people who are not vets?

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Rippleman    3,850
23 hours ago, Mando said:

man, what irks me about it is,

Doesnt trump and pence (the retard gang) not understand being down on one knee is seen as an international mark of respect, pledging allegiance to a nation state or nations flag..... ignorant oranged faced baboons the pair of them.

 

I havnt seen this action once as a sign of disrespect, ignoring the anthem and flag and sitting on the bench would be 100x worse!

 

Pair of single celled amoebas the pair of them. If intelligence were sticks of dynamite, the two of them couldnt muster up a fart between them. Im sure if either of them were not upper class white mummies boys they might actually get the point of the peaceful protestation.

 

 

if trump said they should kneel, they would all stand. This isn't about respect, this is what kids in school, to authority, to people they don't like etc just  to be defiant. I have 3 kids and seen it over the course of a decade.

added: Question: are you smarter and better educated then Trump and the Pence guy?

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+Raze    16,619
3 minutes ago, Rippleman said:

Are you spokesperson for people who are not vets?

 

1 minute ago, Rippleman said:

if trump said they should kneel, they would all stand. This isn't about respect, this is what kids do just to be defiant. 

added: Question: are you smarter and better educated then Trump and the Pence guy?

Come on, Rippleman, neither of those questions have anything to do with the topic.  You're just trolling.

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Rippleman    3,850
1 minute ago, Raze said:

 

Come on, Rippleman, neither of those questions have anything to do with the topic.  You're just trolling.

 

1) There was assertion made while doing the very same thing. He said"Are you the official spokesperson for ALL veterans or something?" A fair question is ask it back. 

2) If someone believes someone to be of extreme low intelligence, I was curious to see how he felt about himself in relation to that. He said " If intelligence were sticks of dynamite, the two of them couldn't muster up a fart between them."

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Astra.Xtreme    2,794
1 hour ago, Fulcrum said:

It's not racist to say a certain demographic commits the most crime, but it's at least not wholly factual once you look at the contributing factors which your NAACP link describes. It's not racist, it's a little misleading, and if you take it in and of itself, you are WRONG, and would not serve the thesis of a research paper supported by the facts in the NAACP link you provided.

 

I think the only thing you need to know is the protesting is an effort to bring attention to legislation which is described in your NAACP link, and this is how laws are changed.

Yeah my intention wasn't to debate each of those bullet points, as I agree it would be very difficult to get exact statistics.  If something is wrong on that site, please list out the corrections.  I highly doubt those stats are too far from the truth, so you can still see the overall trend and the biggest problems that need to be addressed.  Racism and discrimination isn't going to go away by itself.  Things need to be done.

 

The whole problem is their method of protesting.  They aren't targeting something specific and aren't proposing any ideas. You mention their effort to bring attention to legislation, but what legislation is that?  What and who are they fighting against?  Honestly, I don't think they even know and it sure seems like a lot of this is completely fabricated (see Michael Bennett's disgusting lies). Instead they "protest" against the national symbol pf this country, which is so much bigger than their small social problem. That's what people are upset about.  These people are role models and should be going out into the community and doing something.  JJ Watt did a huge fundraiser for hurricane relief and he personally made a massive difference to people's lives.  He could have simply worn a t-shirt during the national anthem, but that would have done nothing.  A privileged millionaire athlete, with hundreds of millions of eyes on their every move, should do something that actually makes a difference.  We're all on the same side and people will follow their lead, if they actually make the effort to lead.

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+Raze    16,619
14 minutes ago, Astra.Xtreme said:

Yeah my intention wasn't to debate each of those bullet points, as I agree it would be very difficult to get exact statistics.  If something is wrong on that site, please list out the corrections.  I highly doubt those stats are too far from the truth, so you can still see the overall trend and the biggest problems that need to be addressed.  Racism and discrimination isn't going to go away by itself.  Things need to be done.

 

The whole problem is their method of protesting.  They aren't targeting something specific and aren't proposing any ideas. You mention their effort to bring attention to legislation, but what legislation is that?  What and who are they fighting against?  Honestly, I don't think they even know and it sure seems like a lot of this is completely fabricated (see Michael Bennett's disgusting lies). Instead they "protest" against the national symbol pf this country, which is so much bigger than their small social problem. That's what people are upset about.  These people are role models and should be going out into the community and doing something.  JJ Watt did a huge fundraiser for hurricane relief and he personally made a massive difference to people's lives.  He could have simply worn a t-shirt during the national anthem, but that would have done nothing.  A privileged millionaire athlete, with hundreds of millions of eyes on their every move, should do something that actually makes a difference.  We're all on the same side and people will follow their lead, if they actually make the effort to lead.

 

I posted this earlier in the thread.    Link

 

 

Where has it been said they are, "they "protest" against the national symbol pf this country"?

 

Protest or dissent is a part of our heritage.  We may not like what or how or where they are protesting, but it is their right.

 

This says it well for myself -

 

4gKVvWM.jpg?1

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Mando    5,117
4 hours ago, Rippleman said:

 

1) There was assertion made while doing the very same thing. He said"Are you the official spokesperson for ALL veterans or something?" A fair question is ask it back. 

2) If someone believes someone to be of extreme low intelligence, I was curious to see how he felt about himself in relation to that. He said " If intelligence were sticks of dynamite, the two of them couldn't muster up a fart between them."

1) I never said anything of the sort in this thread, i suspect you have mixed me up with someone else buddy. The only post ive added before this reply is the one re: sticks of dynamite.

 

2) My intelligence has nothing to do with it, I can grasp the English language, can Trump? Jeesh preteen children can grasp it. I can also muster up a fart all on my own for what its worth.

 

But to answer your question Rippleman, I guess im relatively intelligent, im not the most intelligent in my field of work for example, but im doing ok thanks, started off as a healthcare clinician, retrained into IT support and its certainly keeping me in a comfortable life, working in Biomedical Invitro Research sector, as a SNR Tier 4 infrastructure engineer. So not the daftest brush in the paint pot.

 

Education is not a sign of intelligence, its the sign of being able to absorb information & retain it. 

 

I also know how to be civil and a decent human being, he does not, this however does not need intelligence. I was also not born with a silver spoon in my mouth and got $1m dollars from daddy to start out in business.

Quote

I have a good brain, i know good words

Quote

.......the island of Puerto Rico is surrounded by water......ocean water........ 

Quote

“My uncle used to tell me about nuclear before nuclear was nuclear” 

Yup, a real Stephen Hawkins huh.......

 

Wake up USA hes giving you a diddy ride to feather his own nest and his oil and financial sector buddies at the expense of the US citizens. And stating the exact opposite.

 

I digress, this is derailing the original post.

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