Russia banned from the 2018 Winter Olympics in PyeongChang

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techbeck    5,262
7 minutes ago, Mirumir said:

Thanks for proving that Russia's case isn't a unique one, but the country is being unfairly singled out.

 

Either implement a zero-tolerance policy or remain to be hypocrites.

 They're not being singled out. They had a large number of infractions there for a why they were a band. I just think the band was too broad. A few set group of Russians ruin it for the rest and I don't think that's right. They were caught cheating so therefore there needs to be penalties but I think they should penalize the individual not the whole team. Other countries have been penalized throughout the years but that was an individual basis again Russia had a high number of violations. The rest of the people have drugs in your system got approval the proper way.

 

Hopefully the Russians will can compete on a neutral basis because I going to miss watching them in the Olympics

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+FloatingFatMan    13,619

Russia was banned not because of individual cheats, but because of state run cheating.

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Circaflex    3,064
8 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

Russia was banned not because of individual cheats, but because of state run cheating.

Which was unraveled by one of THEIR scientists/doctors(Grigory Rodchenkov). His journal and testimony is what sealed the deal.

 

It doesn't surprise me to see a certain individual pointing the finger at the West, putting blame on everyone else except their own. This thread is about Russia being banned, I don't care what you think about the US or how the US some how is targeting Russia. Face the facts, Russian athletes were doping and were caught, Russian officials were caught tainting specimens and lying, their own chemist Grigory Rodchenkov has gone on record stating what he has done and has the journal to prove it. How this person can continue to twist this as "Western media being the bad guy again," I don't know what to tell you. Just swallow your pride and admit Russia messed up here severely. If this thread continues down the road it is headed, I will just have the mods lock it up. I am tired of the same old people turning this into a Russia vs USA, every chance they get.

Edited by Circaflex
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wakjak    7,549
52 minutes ago, Circaflex said:

His journal and testimony is what sealed the deal.

And the fact that WADA actually was able to corroborate everything Rodchenkov said.

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+FloatingFatMan    13,619
36 minutes ago, Mirumir said:

In the future, WikiLeaks will release info about state run cheating in the western countries and we'll have the last laugh.

 

 

We're still waiting...

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+Mirumir    5,300
3 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

We're still waiting...

When I said "in the future", I had a slightly longer timeline in my mind, counting in years possibly, not minutes or hours.

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+FloatingFatMan    13,619
14 minutes ago, Mirumir said:

When I said "in the future", I had a slightly longer timeline in my mind, counting in years possibly, not minutes or hours.

So in other words, you HOPE that "one day", Wikileaks MIGHT have something like this to accuse western governments of, but you don't really know that they have because you're just making it all up?

 

Right.. Gotcha.

 

Try again when this actually happens. If ever.

 

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Nefarious Trigger    7,069
48 minutes ago, Mirumir said:

When I said "in the future", I had a slightly longer timeline in my mind, counting in years possibly, not minutes or hours.

So, grasping at imaginary straws!

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+Mirumir    5,300
44 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

So in other words, you HOPE that "one day", Wikileaks MIGHT have something like this to accuse western governments of, but you don't really know that they have because you're just making it all up?

 

Right.. Gotcha.

 

Try again when this actually happens. If ever.

 

No, I know because I've studied the Cold War.

 

Doping at the Olympics has been an acute problem since the 1960's.

 

It's a cat and mouse game. 

 

Both the USA and USSR were trying to develop new performance enhancing drugs for which no tests had been done at the games yet.

 

New tests were added at each Olympiad and newer drugs kept on appearing.

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+FloatingFatMan    13,619
12 minutes ago, Mirumir said:

No, I know because I've studied the Cold War.

 

Doping at the Olympics has been an acute problem since the 1960's.

 

It's a cat and mouse game. 

 

Both the USA and USSR were trying to develop new performance enhancing drugs for which no tests had been done at the games yet.

 

New tests were added at each Olympiad and newer drugs kept on appearing.

Sure, sure...

 

And I know you're just making stuff up because I studied the back of a pack of cigarettes I found in the street last year.

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+Mirumir    5,300
49 minutes ago, MikeChipshop said:

Or... and bear with me here, I know you have an issue understanding a lot of things, but THEY GOT CAUGHT CHEATING. 

You know? Are you sure? Do you possess some uber cool telepathic mind-reading abilities?

 

Because I know that on January 1, 2016 WADA added meldonium to a list of banned substances at short notice, not giving the Russian athletes enough time to rid their systems of the drug, and then, to make things worse, they retroactively applied the new ban to the samples of the Russian athletes from the past...which is how this McClaren dude came up with such an astronomical number of 1,000 Russian doping athletes.

 

For the record, the average size of the Russian Olympic team is 300 athletes.

 

The damage had been done, and 1/3 of the team, 96 athletes were banned from going to Rio.

 

Then, forward a year later, this report comes up in September of this year:

 

Quote

 

WADA clears 95 Russian athletes implicated in McLaren Report due to ‘insufficient evidence’

 

The World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) has closed its investigation in regard to 95 of the 96 Russian athletes implicated in its McLaren Report as there 'simply may not be sufficient evidence required to sanction', it has told RT.

 

 

As for the allegations of swapping samples at Sochi, that's a cool fantasy. 

 

I'm certain the Russian whistleblower  story-teller and traitor who shared his fantasy with the NYT will be handsomely rewarded. 

 

As you know, Russia is being fined $15 million by the IOC which is a blatant extortion in itself because there was no court decision. What's happened to the innocent until proven guilty mantra you are all so fond of? It doesn't apply to the Russians, because you think we are different, I know.

 

And I'm sure the traitor will get a nice cut from that amount.

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Andrew    2,750

Topic cleaned.

 

I won't hesitate to close it if the topic is derailed again or there is any more flame baiting.

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MikeChipshop    3,409
1 hour ago, Mirumir said:

You know? Are you sure? Do you possess some uber cool telepathic mind-reading abilities?

Do I need too? (Hint: No). You can try your best to spread your nonsense and Russian propaganda on this site, but until there's actually hard evidence to back up your claims then no one is going to buy it.

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techbeck    5,262
3 hours ago, Mirumir said:

In the future, WikiLeaks will release info about state run cheating in the western countries and we'll have the last laugh.

If that happens, I will be with the rest condemning it.   But I would not be laughing about it as I am not laughing about this either.   And perhaps you need to go back and read the link I posted where it shows what athletes were banned or had medals strip because guess what, not only Russians are listed.

Edited by techbeck

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theyarecomingforyou    9,425

Russia engaged in state sanctioned cheating and has been rightfully banned. It was aware of the rules and conspired to circumvent them, which is a clear violation of the principles of the Olympics. It was right to ban Russia from the Olympics.

 

There is a separate issue of countries like the UK and US exploiting the medical exemptions of the Olympics to aid the performance of athletes. UK athletes like Bradley Wiggins and US athletes like Serena Williams and Simone Biles all benefited from medical exemptions allowing them to take performance enhancing drugs. The difference is that they are playing within the rules, it's just that the rules are unfair.

 

There is plenty of criticism to go around but what Russia did is demonstrably worse and absolutely deserving of a ban.

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Circaflex    3,064
2 hours ago, Mirumir said:

I'm certain the Russian whistleblower  story-teller and traitor who shared his fantasy

So you're under the belief that he created a fake journal, and Russia never doped? The Russian officials never tainted specimens? Are you saying, Russia did not cheat and did not use performance enhancing drugs?

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetorch/2016/07/19/486595080/report-russia-used-mouse-hole-to-swap-urine-samples-of-olympic-athletes

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/05/13/sports/russia-doping-sochi-olympics-2014.html

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+Mirumir    5,300

 

Quote

Usmanov urges IOC to let Russia flag fly at 2018 Olympics

 

LAUSANNE, Switzerland (AP) — A leading Russian sports official has urged the IOC to reverse a ban on the country's flag from the Pyeongchang Olympics.

Alisher Usmanov, the president of the International Fencing Federation, said the legal principle of "No guilt, no punishment" means clean Russian athletes are being denied "basic human rights."

 

"Even though discrimination in any shape or form contradicts the principles of the Olympic Movement, the IOC's decision certainly does put clean Russian athletes on an uneven playing field with athletes from other countries,"

 

 

Quote

Top figure skater is face of Russia’s Olympic dilemma

 

Figure skater Evgenia Medvedeva is speaking out against the International Olympic Committee’s ban on Russian athletes competing for the nation in the forthcoming Winter Olympics.

 

“In 2014, I was 14 years old,” the 18-year-old competitor wrote in a statement Tuesday to the IOC’s executive board, per Ice Network. “I have not even entered the adult national team of my country.

 

“For me personally, Pyeongchang [South Korea] should be the first chance to plunge into the unique atmosphere of the Olympic Games. I do not understand why I and my Russian teammates can lose this chance.”

 

On Tuesday, the IOC announced they had banned Russian from participating in the Winter Games after the nation was found tampering with over 100 urine samples during 2014’s Sochi Games in an attempt to conceal steroid usage. The country was also hit with a $15 million fine.

 

Expected to be a gold-medal contender, Medvedeva, a two-time world champion, scoffed at the idea she and her fellow Russians would be able to compete under the name “Olympic Athlete from Russia” (OAR), drug tests pending, and is unsure if she will compete.

 

“I cannot accept the option that I would compete in the Olympic Games without the Russian flag as a neutral athlete,” Medvedeva said. “I am proud of my country, it is a great honor for me to represent it at the Games. It gives strength and inspires me during the performances.”

 

58 minutes ago, Circaflex said:

So you're under the belief that he created a fake journal, and Russia never doped? The Russian officials never tainted specimens? Are you saying, Russia did not cheat and did not use performance enhancing drugs?

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetorch/2016/07/19/486595080/report-russia-used-mouse-hole-to-swap-urine-samples-of-olympic-athletes

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/05/13/sports/russia-doping-sochi-olympics-2014.html

Is there any other evidence out there of Russia tampering with the samples at Sochi other than the account of just ONE individual? There was another butt-hurt couple being jealous at other teammates I believe that chose to immigrate to the States. They are all part of what we call Russia's Fifth Column. That's it. No investigation (a biased IOC or WADA report doesn't count), no trial, no evidence.

 

The issue is politically motivated.

 

Nothing surprises me anymore. There are also forces out there that challenge the choice of Russia as the host of the FIFA World Cup next year.

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theyarecomingforyou    9,425
7 minutes ago, Mirumir said:

 

Is there any other evidence out there of Russia tampering with the samples at Sochi other than the account of just ONE individual? There was another butt-hurt couple being jealous at other teammates I believe that chose to immigrate to the States. They are all part of what we call Russia's Fifth Column. That's it. No investigation (a biased IOC or WADA report doesn't count), no trial, no evidence.

There was a 97-page report into the matter that found overwhelming evidence of Russian interference, corroborating earlier evidence that had been received by the IOC. It's not all based on the testimony of one person, as you claim. Dr Rodchenkov was only part of the equation.

 

From the report:

Quote

The veracity of Dr. Rodchenkov’s statements to The New York Times article is supported by the forensic analysis of the IP which included laboratory analysis of the salt content of samples selected by the investigative team.  The London WADA accredited Laboratory, at the request of the IP, advised that of the forensically representative samples tested, 6 had salt contents higher than what should be found in urine of a healthy human. The forensic examination for marks and scratches within the bottle caps confirmed that they had been tampered with.  Both findings support the evidence of Dr. Rodchenkov.

Then there was the mass destruction of samples when an investigation was initiated into the matter. It's clear Russia had something to hide.

 

Then there's the physical evidence:

Quote

Dr Rodchenkov prepared a schedule of 37 athletes whose samples were potentially a problem if another accredited laboratory were to analyze them.  A meeting was held with Deputy Minister Nagornykh in which the jeopardy of the laboratory was discussed were something not done to deal with the selected samples. The upshot of that meeting was that Deputy Minister Nagornykh
resolved to call in the “magicians”.  That night the FSB visited the laboratory and the next day sample bottles were in the laboratory without their caps.  The IP found that these samples all had negative findings recorded on ADAMS.
 
The IP forensic examination of these bottles found evidence of scratches and marks confirmed tampering. A urine examination of 3 of the samples showed that the DNA was not that of the athlete involved.

As for you claim that there is no evidence, that's not true. Many athletes were cleared due to a lack of evidence but that doesn't in any way suggest they are innocent. There is plenty of evidence to support Russia's meddling in the anti-doping tests but not enough to meet the threshold required to sanction individual athletes. It's also worth noting that Dr Rodchenkov, the main witness, was not available to provide evidence against the athletes.

 

If it's all just an international conspiracy against Russia then you must be able to provide some evidence of that. Afterall, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

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LaP    1,764
On 07/12/2017 at 3:21 AM, FloatingFatMan said:

 

After a bit more thought on this, and a little reading up, are you seriously comparing known and proven drug cheats to people with known medical conditions who were/are not taking any performance enhancing drugs?  Do you seriously want to go there, and end up looking even more ridiculous? 

 

The only hypocrisy here is your feeble attempts at excusing your country's consistent attempts at cheating whilst blaming others who are not.

I agree with you but what happened with Russia should raise concerns outside of just Russia. Sadly it seems nobody cares about it. Like Russia is the demon everything is fine. That's a very foolish attitude by WADA imo.

 

A list of names was published not too long ago with athletes taking prohibited drugs because of a medical condition. Now i don't know if the list was accurate but i don't remember anyone denying it or anything. But maybe it was denied i'm not following drugs abuse in sports too much. That list was sort of massive like personally i don't know many people who takes drugs because of medical condition and those who are could not be athletes like not even close because of said medical condition. So it raises some concerns honestly. Again maybe i'm wrong i'm not following the subject closely but it seems like more and more athletes are taking something because of a medical condition. And often the medical condition is sort of officially vague. I don't know anyway but for an outsider not following this too much it looks like it.

 

When you look at how easy it was for Russia to cheat it should raise big concerns imo. Let's remember that Armstrong was actually caught cheating twice but got away using fake medical papers signed by a real doctor. Is it still as easy to get a medical exemption using fake papers as it was when Armstrong got his?

 

In the end both Russia and US Postal team were caught in big part because of whistle blowers and not because the WADA did a tremendously good job. It should raise big concerns.

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theyarecomingforyou    9,425
30 minutes ago, LaP said:

A list of names was published not too long ago with athletes taking prohibited drugs because of a medical condition. Now i don't know if the list was accurate but i don't remember anyone denying it or anything. But maybe it was denied i'm not following drugs abuse in sports too much. That list was sort of massive like personally i don't know many people who takes drugs because of medical condition and those who are could not be athletes like not even close because of said medical condition. So it raises some concerns honestly. Again maybe i'm wrong i'm not following the subject closely but it seems like more and more athletes are taking something because of a medical condition. And often the medical condition is sort of officially vague. I don't know anyway but for an outsider not following this too much it looks like it.

The difference is that athletes with medical exemptions are not breaking the rules. Are the rules unfair? Absolutely, because the exemptions are clearly being used to enhance performance. But as the rules stand they are not cheating. Russia could have decided to exploit the same loopholes to allow performance enhancing drugs to be taken legally but instead chose a state organised scheme to cheat drugs tests, which is in clear violation of the rules.

 

Frankly the Olypmics has lost any credibility it may once have had. It's not about individual talent but the billions invested in developing athletes, methods of circumventing the rules and outright cheating. At the end of the day why do we even care that one person from a particular country can run slightly faster than another person from a different country?

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+exotoxic    464
1 hour ago, Mirumir said:

Yep and Saddam had WMD's.

I'm not anti Russia but the ban is fair, they were caught and have to pay the price. The medical exemptions i don't agree with, if you need to take something that is a banned substance you should in no way be allowed to compete.

 

I fully expect other countries such as the UK are running secret drug trials to get that extra edge, but unless you have evidence what can you do??

 

In swimming they have those over engineered fluid dynamic (??) suite that are expensive giving anyone who can't afford one a disadvantage right from the start, doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the Olympics but it's legal.

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+Mirumir    5,300
Quote

If it's all just an international conspiracy against Russia then you must be able to provide some evidence of that.

The evidence is all around us. It's not a conspiracy when you have a Western leader or a NATO general calling Russia an existential threat which must be contained and isolated on a regular basis.

 

The Western political elite allows itself to implement more provocative anti-Russian actions compared to the height of the Cold War: personal sanctions, troops and ABM deployment in the Baltics ("not one inch eastward"), economic sanctions, and now sports sanctions.

 

The pressure is being felt. But hey, listen, it's Russia who is the real aggressor.

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techbeck    5,262

Dr Mark Bonar has no part in the OP unless he has been tied to doping Olympic athletes.  So far, what I have seen is

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-sport-doping-britain/british-doctor-alleges-he-doped-150-sports-people-idUSKCN0WZ0TJ

Quote

 

The Sunday Times reported that Dr Mark Bonar prescribed banned drugs to 150 sports figures including several Premier League footballers.

The paper said Dr Bonar claimed his “clients” included an England cricketer, British Tour de France cyclists, a British boxing champion, tennis players and martial arts competitors as well as footballers.

 

 

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