what do you think a goth is?


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,Jan 26 2004, 20:41] well, lets say that I dont deny that that can happen, but then I think is as worse as the other one, you cant describe a group mentallity by studying just one subject and as a consecuence you cant apply the group mentallity to an individual since it doesnt matter how similar are the ideologies on a group, all of the are different in a different way

Ah... That would be where we disagree, then... You believe that all the people that fall within a stereotype are inherently different in that they are of a different concsiousness, if you will, whereas I believe that they are the same as part of a category, which makes the stereotype what it is - just another form of classification... I'd love to keep arguing this (It's fun. ;)), unfortunatley I have to go now. Hope someone else picks up where I left off.

[Edit] Just changed a few things.

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Ah... That would be where we disagree, then... You believe that all the people that fall within a stereotype are inherently different in that they are of a different concsiousness, if you will, whereas I believe that they are the same as part of a category, which makes the stereotype what it is - just another form of classification... I'd love to keep arguing this (It's fun. ;)), unfortunatley I have to go now. Hope someone else picks up where I left off.

just a question, if every mind is a whole word, how people can be the same? ok, they can be similar, but not the same :)

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hehe anyways, i think i have gone off topic and i can go on, but point taken saint dark.

thanks 4 actually taking the ttime to visit my site, and yes I did indeed pilther that from another site, however I did so because I agreed with the content which exemplified my views on the subject, however could not represent my views without said alterations, as to looking as I do, I do so because I feel comfortable doing so, not because I feel a need 2 copy, and so follow a lead

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,Jan 26 2004, 19:48] just a question, if ebery mind is a whole word, hoe people can be the same? ok, they can be similar, but not the same :)

eh?

mayberry yonder traffic lilly delivers tree?

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thanks 4 actually taking the ttime to visit my site, and yes I did indeed pilther that from another site, however I did so because I agreed with the content which exemplified my views on the subject, however could not represent my views without said alterations, as to looking as I do, I do so because I feel comfortable doing so, not because I feel a need 2 copy, and so follow a lead

are you sure you are quoting the right person? :huh:

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eh?

mayberry yonder traffic lilly delivers tree?

well, just a mistake in a couple of vowels, CRUCIFY ME FOR THAT!!! :rolleyes:

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it is indeed quite plausible at this point that I am quoting the wrong person. I shall attribute that 2 fatigue, having just pulled an all-nighter to finish a lab report based around photosynthesis, and then decided 2 c if interest in my thread had wained, or if I had attracted any more flames, but the current discourse seems 2 b of a higher level than that which I observed earlier. :)

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...Conformist ******s...

Suffer the pain of unfathomable sadness.

Haha.

I can't take anyone seriously that simply has a handgun as their avatar...

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,Jan 26 2004, 20:48] just a question, if every mind is a whole word, how people can be the same? ok, they can be similar, but not the same :)

Just a last thing to leave you with before I head off to sleep - it's true, all people are different, absolutely no one is the same - but wrap your mind around this one: they would all have to be similar enough for the stereotype to be created in the first place, right?

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I was indeed incorrect in my quote, I meant 2 quote gawdflesh, and thereby form a reply. :wacko:

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Just a last thing to leave you with before I head off to sleep - it's true, all people are different, absolutely no one is the same - but wrap your mind around this one: they would all have to be similar enough for the stereotype to be created in the first place, right?

yes, but that doesnt make valid an stereotype since an stereptype is a whole

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Just a last thing to leave you with before I head off to sleep - it's true, all people are different, absolutely no one is the same - but wrap your mind around this one: they would all have to be similar enough for the stereotype to be created in the first place, right?

That is true...

However, although stereotypes can be useful, what happens when someone does a variety of different things, each of which tend to belong to separate stereotypes?

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I haven't read the entire thread (it's long), but has anyone really talked bad about goths? If not, then there is nothing wrong with stereotyping a group. After all, we aren't saying that you're all the same... we're just making the distinction that your particular lifestyle makes you fall into a different mold than "rocker" or "rapper."

I mean, most of us would admit that we fall in the category of "nerd" (at least I don't mind), in the view of general society. So why is it so bad to be a "goth?"

Oh, and I do think that stereotypes DO evolve with the people that are stereotyped. Today's "hippy" is not exactly the same as the 70's "hippy."

The world would be boring if we didn't have hippies, rockers, rappers, goths, etc.

Opinions?

I don't blame you for not reading the whole thread, it is long. But if you HAD read the whole thread, you would know that yes, people have said some "bad" things about Goths that are rooted in ignorance of a lifestyle they do not understand, and for some reason even hate in some cases, judging by some of the posts in this thread. By the way some people are describing their version of the meaning of Goth, you almost get the impression they are talking about some kind of satanic cult, or a group of people that hate others... which is just not the case, and, as Saint Dark and others have said, is based in widespread misunderstanding and false stereotypes due to either certain people that have misrepresented the group or movement, or people that just plain make things up about people they do not understand. Not all stereotypes are TRUE, many of them are just plain garbage that people have literally concocted out of thin air, based loosely on things they have heard, maybe things that are based in the folklore of a certain culture or subculture, and since these people have generally been on the fringes of society and tend to not care what others think, the stereotypes are then widely considered fact by the people that are ignorant to the truth of the matter. Or they have had a negative experience with a few individuals they consider part of said group or stereotype, and use that experience with those few individuals to show everyone they are correct... which is interesting, because if you have to go around to people saying "see, see! I told you I was right!", they obviously knew that their original opinion was not actually based in fact.

I'm sure I will be elaborating on these thoughts of mine later on in the thread, since many people here apparently believe with much conviction that stereotyping others based on things they have no comprehension of is acceptable, and is how you should deal with things they do not agree with, do not understand, or do not take part in them self.

Edited by CrimsonBlur
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I'm not sure what to think..

I know a couple of people that would call themselves Goth. They tend to fit many, but certainly not all of the stereotypes I've seen posted on this thread.

I myself tend to be the clean-cut, boy next door type. Average? I guess it depends on how you look at it. All I know is, my "Goth" friends tend to be more open-minded and accepting of different/unusual ideas I pose to them versus my more "normal" friends. This doesn't detract from my friendships with the more "normal" people, but it does say a lot about my "Goth" friends to me. This behavior, more than anything else about my "Goth" friends, is what sets them apart in my eyes.

BTW - If there's any word on this thread lacking any real, usable definition, it's the word "normal".. I recently read a bumper sticker that says: "A normal person is one you don't know very well". Scary, but oddly true to me.

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since many people here apparently believe with much conviction that stereotyping others based on things they have no comprehension of is acceptable, and is how you should deal with things they do not agree with, do not understand, or do not take part in them self.

I hope you're not talking about me, because I definitley don't believe that. In fact, I agree completely with everything Saint Dark has said up to this point - I only dispute to create arugment which leads people to think about what they're debating. And intellectual stimulation is good. :yes:

Okay... Really sleep now. :sleep:

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I hope you're not talking about me, because I definitley don't believe that. In fact, I agree completely with everything Saint Dark has said up to this point - I only dispute to create arugment which leads people to think about what they're debating. And intellectual stimulation is good. :yes:

Okay... Really sleep now. :sleep:

Based on the issues you have brought up, I believe you that you are simply putting the ideas up for debate, which is always good. If no one questions the true meaning of what they and others believe, what's the point in believing anything at all? So I understand what you are saying, I do the exact same thing ;)

And no, I didn't read one of your posts and direct my statements at you. But i AM wondering why you thought that in the first place... :shifty: :p

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Goths in my opinion are a bunch of people who do nothing but wallow in self pity, listen to loud crappy music (imo, remember), wear black all together to express their individuality. Then they say stuff like, 'You dont know where im coming from', the constantly refer to individualism then use 'us' when retorting. Goths who stay goths just take up space in this world they are non or counter-productive (not saying there the only ones). I find they pick at small stupid details and really just are going about getting a friend in a wrong way (imo, again). People who say they dont fall into anypart of this catagory (minus heavy rock) are not goth. They could fall into the catagory of alternative (not standard punk but something different about them that not everyone else does).

edit: they also seem to get this thrill from people being nervous of them. like they are more powerful. goths can be (borderline) cultists tampering with devilworship or be heading down that road (though they may deny it).

Also every goth i have met and been nice to has usually been pretty nice back and look for some belonging. I have befriended two goths thus far and they have changed from their old ways to becoming semi normal (whatever that is, just not as goth) they have admitted to me that they didnt like what they were before but felt it was the only place (way of life/friends) they fit into.

I dont mean to offend anyone but if I do I am not sorry for what I said. I still stand by my comment Goths for the most part are counter or non productive.

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The Cure's "17 Seconds"

The Cure's "Faith"

The Cure's "Pornography"

The Cure is goth. Listen to the above three albums. Really listen. Listen to the sound, complemented by haunting lyrics. Not haunting as in Halloween; but as in becoming aware of your being.

Goth is not a label, it's not a fashion trend.

Goth is a state of mind, just outside normal, but not abnormal.

Goths have a deeper sense of being, of feeling, of love and heartache. Goths read books! Goths listen to not just "gothic" music, but spiritual music, like classical - Beethoven, Bach, Brams, Tzchaikovsky, etc.

Once you listen, graduate to Siouxsie and the Banshees, Joy Division/early New Order, The Jesus and Mary Chain, Sonic Youth, and others....

Why the white makeup, red lipstick, black clothing? To make a statement about being taken as an individual.

Hahah. Yes, they are so much deeper than the rest of us. Geeez! And dont drag the good band Joy Division into this!

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Well I had a whole post written up about every issue I have with the gothic subculture but i think most of it has been exausted already in this thread so I will just post one of my main annoyances. Why is it that most Goths I meet think that just because they wear black clothes with patches and safety pins, it makes them somehow more deep and intellegent than the rest of us.

Many goths seem to adhere to this mentality. That they are some how more unique and intelligent than the rest of us. Not only is this insulting, but blatantly false. Ironically, since most goths (and by "goths," I refer to their "culture" or "subculture" as they've defined it) seem to think that they are somehow more intelligent, interesting and/or creative than the rest of us, this alludes to another character trait entirely, or namely, arrogance. Boring, arrogant, uninteresting, un-innovative gothics, whether "true" gothics or not.

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Goths have a deeper sense of being, of feeling, of love and heartache. Goths read books! Goths listen to not just "gothic" music, but spiritual music, like classical - Beethoven, Bach, Brams, Tzchaikovsky, etc.

Once you listen, graduate to Siouxsie and the Banshees, Joy Division/early New Order, The Jesus and Mary Chain, Sonic Youth, and others....

Why the white makeup, red lipstick, black clothing? To make a statement about being taken as an individual.

That is exactly the attitude I am talking about....... God.

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