At least 17 dead in Florida school shooting, law enforcement says

[+Mirumir Subscriber¹]

In Russia, we've just recently had the worst mass knife stabbing attack at school. No one died, but more than a dozen people were badly injured.

 

And four years ago, we had our first school shooting.

 

There's also been an increased rate of army cadets going berserk and shooting their mates while undergoing military training.

 

Crazy people will always find the means to do crazy things.

[techbeck]

Just now, Mirumir said:

In Russia, we've just recently had the worst mass knife stabbing attack at school. No one died, but more than a dozen people were badly injured.

 

And four years ago, we had our first school shooting.

 

There's also been an increased rate of army cadets going berserk and shooting their mates while undergoing military training.

 

Crazy people will always find the means to do crazy things.

Just like with anything else, id the cause and you can find a cure.  People just do not start going crazy for no reason.

[+Mirumir Subscriber¹]

1 minute ago, techbeck said:

Just like with anything else, id the cause and you can find a cure.  People just do not start going crazy for no reason.

Depression or some kind of a new psychological disorder that hasn't been studied yet.

[techbeck]

7 minutes ago, Mirumir said:

Depression or some kind of a new psychological disorder that hasn't been studied yet.

Depression is nothing new.   Personally, I think it has more to do with upbringing than anything else.  Kids need to learn respect and people need to learn how to properly parent.  More and more single parents and lots of people are having unplanned, or unwanted, kids.  And then the law, or officials, do not allow parents to actually parent.  Spanking can be consider as abuse.  So is washing your mouth out with soap and many other things.  I got spanked as a kid and it didnt hurt.  Embarrassed me and got my attention though.  

 

Kids are also taught how not to lose at something.  Participation trophies is a good example of this.  Growing up, you either won or lost.  If you lost, made you try harder and get better and learn the meaning of hard work.  Not kids get a "good job" for losing and when they lose for real, they don't know how to take it.  My once niece is a prime example of this.   But I will stop ranting.

[LaP]

2 minutes ago, techbeck said:

Depression is nothing new.   Personally, I think it has more to do with upbringing than anything else.  Kids need to learn respect and people need to learn how to properly parent.  More and more single parents and lots of people are having unplanned, or unwanted, kids.  And then the law, or officials, do not allow parents to actually parent.  Spanking can be consider as abuse.  So is washing your mouth out with soap and many other things.  I got spanked as a kid and it didnt hurt.  Embarrassed me and got my attention though.  

 

Kids are also taught how not to lose at something.  Participation trophies is a good example of this.  Growing up, you either won or lost.  If you lost, made you try harder and get better and learn the meaning of hard work.  Not kids get a "good job" for losing and when they lose for real, they don't know how to take it.  My once niece is a prime example of this.

Rispek has nothing to do with someone killing 17 people. Rispek is grossly overrated these days.

 

We did not have any respect when we were young in the 70ies and 80ies. We would bring our walkman to school and put it in our hoodies to listen to music without the prof noticing it. We would trespass on private property just for the fun of it. Stealing candies at the store. Drink under 18. Fight at school. Beat the kids at Arcade. Listen to metal and wear provocative shirts. I would say kids these days are a lot more conservative than we were. Maybe a bit too much. Sometime it's a good thing to have fun.

 

There's mainly three big differences between USA and Canada. Guns nuts (the word nuts is important here cause there's many guns in Canada). Price of health care (it's free in Canada). Religious conservatism (eastern Canada mostly doesn't care about religion at all). IMO it's more than likely one of those 3 differences the reason why there's more shooting in USA than Canada.

 

My condolence to the families. Leaving this world so young is very sad and a tragedy

[techbeck]

8 minutes ago, LaP said:

Respect has nothing to do with someone killing 17 people. Respect is grossly overrated these days.

 

FTFY    And I respectfully disagree.

[Circaflex]

15 minutes ago, LaP said:

Guns nuts (the word nuts is important here cause there's many guns in Canada)

I think this is the biggest problem. Amendment this, amendment that, Murica! I've said it before and I will say it again, there is absolutely no reason a civilian needs any of the following:

 

Fully automatic gun

30 Round clips/Extended clips

Silencers

Armor piercing/penetrating rounds

The list can go on...

 

Anytime you bring these items up, generally the first response I receive is "because I can and our Amendment protects that!" No, you really don't need those types of items, no one except military/police officers do.

[Mockingbird]

With tears rolling down her face, Lori Alhadeff screamed into a microphone, glared into a camera, and begged the President to address the nation's deadly gun epidemic.

 

Alhadeff's 14-year-old daughter, Alyssa, was one of 17 people killed during Wednesday's school shooting in Parkland, Florida. Alhadeff's grief was coupled with anger and a demand for answers.

 

"I just spent the last two hours putting [together] the burial arrangements for my daughter's funeral, who's 14!"

 

 

Alhadeff's pleas left CNN anchor Brooke Baldwin struggling to speak.

 

"I'm sorry, it's just," started the anchor, before pausing to try to collect herself. Baldwin was hosting her "CNN Newsroom" program from on the ground in Florida, and had just watched Alhadeff along with her audience. Joined by Democratic US Rep. Ted Deutch of Florida, Baldwin fought back tears, and asked her guest for assistance.

 

"Congressman, help me out," she said. "Just hearing that mother, I'm sorry, it got me."

 

Deutch agreed.

 

"What that grieving mother said is the most powerful message that everyone needs to hear," he said. "We need action. We have to do something."

[DocM]

1 hour ago, shockz said:

There is absolutely zero reason why once should have this type of weapon available to them outside police or military. None. 

 

Treat the symptoms? Stop letting nutjobs have access to assault weapons. Problem solved. Even better, prevent the sale of these weapons to anyone else outside military and police. I seriously doubt our founding fathers ever envisioned guns that can take out 20 kids in a matter of minutes in the hands of ordinary citizens, let alone having unrestricted and undocumented sales occur of said weapons.

.223 is also commonly used as a small game round.  Medium and large game hunters use .270 - .300 and .308 rounds which are much more powerful than the .223.

 

The military chose .223 as a combat  round because a soldier could carry more shots/kg of carried mass.  The main advantage to AR-15's form factor is it's ability to accept accessories, not it's power. 

 

As far as semi-automatics go, they make up the vast majority of hunting rifles. Everything else is cosmetic or convenience , as per the images I posted upthread. 

 

Banning guns based on looks or a supposed military connection is dumb. Hell, the Russians use the ubiquitous .22 as a sniper rifle, so ban it too?

[Emn1ty]

13 minutes ago, Circaflex said:

I think this is the biggest problem. Amendment this, amendment that, Murica! I've said it before and I will say it again, there is absolutely no reason a civilian needs any of the following:

 

Fully automatic gun

30 Round clips/Extended clips

Silencers

Armor piercing/penetrating rounds

The list can go on...

 

Anytime you bring these items up, generally the first response I receive is "because I can and our Amendment protects that!" No, you really don't need those types of items, no one except military/police officers do.

Most people don't have any of those items. Fully Automatics aren't readily available or even legal for the most part, 30 round clips aren't either in most states. Silencers don't do what people think they do, which is why they aren't called silencer but suppressors. Most people think they work like in movies where they can be standing right next to people and not be heard. But they don't reduce the sound nearly that much, and mostly are only affective at minimizing the muzzle flare of a weapon. Armor piercing and penetration rounds iirc aren't legal either without specific permits or paperwork.

 

TLDR; what you listed isn't easily obtainable and more often than not is entirely illegal without significant hoops being jumped through.

 

2 minutes ago, Mockingbird said:

With tears rolling down her face, Lori Alhadeff screamed into a microphone, glared into a camera, and begged the President to address the nation's deadly gun epidemic.

 

Alhadeff's 14-year-old daughter, Alyssa, was one of 17 people killed during Wednesday's school shooting in Parkland, Florida. Alhadeff's grief was coupled with anger and a demand for answers.

 

"I just spent the last two hours putting [together] the burial arrangements for my daughter's funeral, who's 14!"

Alhadeff's pleas left CNN anchor Brooke Baldwin struggling to speak.

 

"I'm sorry, it's just," started the anchor, before pausing to try to collect herself. Baldwin was hosting her "CNN Newsroom" program from on the ground in Florida, and had just watched Alhadeff along with her audience. Joined by Democratic US Rep. Ted Deutch of Florida, Baldwin fought back tears, and asked her guest for assistance.

 

"Congressman, help me out," she said. "Just hearing that mother, I'm sorry, it got me."

 

Deutch agreed.

 

"What that grieving mother said is the most powerful message that everyone needs to hear," he said. "We need action. We have to do something."

If you want policy to be built entirely on emotion, then sure. Listen to her. But I prefer to understand a problem rather than just react to such appeals to emotion. Not to sound cold, but there's far more to it than just guns no matter how many tears this woman provides.

 

I have a feeling that if we take away guns in these scenarios, we might just see more cars and more bombs as an alternative weapon. The problem here isn't the guns, it's the fact that we're so complacent with these kinds of people we can't do anything about it until they've already done their damage. Whether or not we can solve that is another issue. The attacker being apprehended alive is a step in the direction of hopefully understanding what goes through these people's minds.

[Circaflex]

1 minute ago, Emn1ty said:

Most people don't have any of those items. Fully Automatics aren't readily available or even legal for the most part, 30 round clips aren't either in most states. Silencers don't do what people think they do, which is why they aren't called silencer but suppressors. Most people think they work like in movies where they can be standing right next to people and not be heard. But they don't reduce the sound nearly that much, and mostly are only affective at minimizing the muzzle flare of a weapon. Armor piercing and penetration rounds iirc aren't legal either without specific permits or paperwork.

 

TLDR; what you listed isn't easily obtainable and more often than not is entirely illegal without significant hoops being jumped through.

Autos - My understanding is some states it is legal, however most of these guns are very old and the "new" ones are 30+ years old

Extended/30 round clips can be purchased in Nevada, not too far from California.

Suppressors - 42 states currently allow private ownership of suppressors. Pretty easy to get if you want.

AP Rounds - Green tips are pretty common and easy enough to come by and those have tungsten cores that act as armor piercing.

 

Now, please don't take this the wrong way, but are you pro guns? Specifically, guns and or accessories that really no normal civilian for range/home protection use needs?

 

[Mockingbird]

15 minutes ago, Emn1ty said:

f you want policy to be built entirely on emotion, then sure. Listen to her. But I prefer to understand a problem rather than just react to such appeals to emotion. Not to sound cold, but there's far more to it than just guns no matter how many tears this woman provides.

 

I have a feeling that if we take away guns in these scenarios, we might just see more cars and more bombs as an alternative weapon. The problem here isn't the guns, it's the fact that we're so complacent with these kinds of people we can't do anything about it until they've already done their damage. Whether or not we can solve that is another issue. The attacker being apprehended alive is a step in the direction of hopefully understanding what goes through these people's minds.

The time for change is when a tragedy like this happened.

 

The same deflections keep coming back again.

 

The perpetuator chose an AR-15 because it's easy to obtain and great for inflicting mass casualties.

 

The problem with bombs is that they are more difficult to obtained.

 

The problem with cars is that it's harder to inflict mass casualties. What's he going to do? Ram into the building and then individual classrooms?

[Emn1ty]

2 minutes ago, Circaflex said:

Autos - My understanding is some states it is legal, however most of these guns are very old and the "new" ones are 30+ years old

Extended/30 round clips can be purchased in Nevada, not too far from California.

Suppressors - 42 states currently allow private ownership of suppressors. Pretty easy to get if you want.

AP Rounds - Green tips are pretty common and easy enough to come by and those have tungsten cores that act as armor piercing.

 

Now, please don't take this the wrong way, but are you pro guns? Specifically, guns and or accessories that really no normal civilian for range/home protection use needs?

 

I'm neither pro nor anti-gun. I'm more so tired of people attacking the guns when it's somewhat of a cop-out argument because it requires absolutely no real progress be made as it deals with a constitutional amendment. So instead of attacking something from the absolute worst and slowest way possible (which betrays your actual willingness to help people) perhaps attack it from a direction that can actually affect change and perhaps stop more than just gun related mass killings? I personally see this as a mental health problem and a preparedness problem, not a gun problem.

 

As for Autos, there are strict regulations on how they must be stored and even then the number of grandfathered automatics used to commit these crimes is zero. All automatic weapons used in these have either been illegally modified or illegally obtained (afaik). Extended rounds are also legal in other countries, you can simply purchase them online. Doesn't make them any less illegal. Just as I can buy knives that are illegal in california from Amazon pretty easily; however that doesn't make it an easily abused system (it's largely not).

 

Regarding suppressors, that doesn't address my point at all.

 

AP Rounds - "act as armor piercing" isn't armor piercing. In fact all resources I find state green tips are not armor piercing.

 

12 minutes ago, Mockingbird said:

The same deflections keep coming back again.

 

1. The perpetuator chose an AR-15 because it's easy to obtain and great for inflicting mass casualties.

 

2. The problem with bombs is that they are more difficult to obtained.

 

3. The problem with cars is that it's harder to inflict mass casualties. What's he going to do? Ram into the building and then individual classrooms?

1. The AR-15 was automatic? As far as I know, the AR-15 is just as easy to do mass damage with as any other semi-auto firearm. Strangely enough longarms are much harder to conceal than pistols so your statement is debatable. It would be easier to approach a campus with a pistol than a rifle.

 

2. True, but difficulty obtaining them isn't a deterrent, as we've seen with firearms.

 

3. Depends on the campus and the car, the attacks by ISIS have demonstrated otherwise.

[macrosslover]

1 hour ago, Mockingbird said:

The time for change is when a tragedy like this happened.

 

The same deflections keep coming back again.

 

The perpetuator chose an AR-15 because it's easy to obtain and great for inflicting mass casualties.

 

The problem with bombs is that they are more difficult to obtained.

 

The problem with cars is that it's harder to inflict mass casualties. What's he going to do? Ram into the building and then individual classrooms?

The time for change is not when something like this immediately happens, we see how well the Patriot Act worked out.  You need to have a clear separation of emotions from an event like this before you say let's pay long-lasting legislation and that can only come with some passage of time between a particular incident and the passage of legislation.

 

As to your other statements, the AR-15 is not the boogeyman.  Any semiautomatic handgun, with proper aim, could have inflicted the type of casualties he did.  Doesn't matter what type of gun he used really, since he purchased it legally and thus he probably would have been able to purchase any type of gun legally, so no matter what laws you want to pass after the fact, we have to assume he would have still been able to legally obtain a firearm.

 

Bombs or bomb making materials are really not that hard to obtain.  Most people don't have the knowledge to put the stuff together or care enough to look for that knowledge and even the most crazy person is hesitant dealing with something that can go boom to him/her before its intended use.

 

Considering he pulled the fire alarm and people were heading outside, it's conceivable, with a rented box truck, he could have run down a few people and killed as many.  The gun makes it quicker, easier for people, but it's not the only tool capable of inflicting mass casualties as you like to say.

[techbeck]

3 hours ago, Mockingbird said:

What's he going to do? Ram into the building and then individual classrooms?

Not making any other vehicles references other than to counter your argument about vehicles.  Been a number of incidents where nut jobs have indeed run into a bunch of people with cars and killed several.  For example, Mohamed Lahouaiej-Bouhlel.  Nut jobs exist out of the classroom as well.

[DocM]

7 hours ago, Circaflex said:

Autos - My understanding is some states it is legal, however most of these guns are very old and the "new" ones are 30+ years old

You can own a fully automatic weapon at the Federal level, but it requires a load of paperwork and an anal exam by BATF.  If you're approved you need to pay a special tax and remain in good standing.  Even then, some states ban them.

 

Quote

Extended/30 round clips can be purchased in Nevada, not too far from California.

Suppressors - 42 states currently allow private ownership of suppressors. Pretty easy to get if you want.

 

Did you know that in many European countries !silencers/suppressors are not only allowed but hunters are encouraged to use them? Their purpose is to reduce noise pollution and hearing injuries. There are even models for air guns.

 

Extended magazine bans are ineffective even if they were implemented federally.  Take 2 smaller mags, tape them together and flip the stack. Takes less time than you'd think. Run dry? More taped stacks in a pocket.

 

 

Quote

AP Rounds - Green tips are pretty common and easy enough to come by and those have tungsten cores that act as armor piercing.

 

When it comes to body armor, unless the body armor has ceramic plates all heavy class pistol and  most rifle ammo is "armor piercing." Soft body armor can only stop light to medium handgun rounds.

 

Quote

 

Now, please don't take this the wrong way, but are you pro guns? Specifically, guns and or accessories that really no normal civilian for range/home protection use needs?

 

 

For home protection a 12 gauge shotgun is better, a firearm profoundly more deadly than an AR-15 at close range. Mine's a Saiga 12.

 

Again, the AR-15 in .223/5.56 NATO is less powerful than 75% of the semi-auto hunting rifles on the market, and it's rate of fire no greater. Such semi-auto rifles make up the vast majority of the hunting rifle market. 

 

What AR-15 style rifles offer the hunter is light weight (ever trudge through 20 miles of back country? 2-3 lbs matters), a degree of water resistance (handy when hunting in a  swamp or inclement weather) and Picatinny rails which add the ability to easily swap sights, attach  a flashlight or other conveniences. 

 

Besides all that, AR-15 based rifles are commonly used in match competitions.

 

 

That they "look military" is irrelevant to the conversation. 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2018 by DocM

[+Mirumir Subscriber¹]

 

Quote

 

“Round 2 of Florida” threat made to Broome HS say deputies

 

SPARTANBURG Co., S.C. (WSPA)–School officials say a ninth grader has been arrested after threatening students and staff at Broome High School.

 

Spartanburg School District 3 said in a news release that the threat was posted on Snapchat. Another student reported the threat to officials on Wednesday.

 

Sheriff’s deputies investigated the threat and charged with student with disturbing schools.

 

School officials were made aware of the threat early Thursday morning. They said additional security is being provided at Broome High School to ensure students’ safety.

 

School officials also recognized the student who tipped off authorities about the threat.

 

“The District would like to commend the student who came forward with information. It is this kind of courage to speak out that can and will prevent tragedies,” District 3 Superintendent Kenny Blackwood said in a statement.

 

 

[ncoday]

11 hours ago, Circaflex said:

Autos - My understanding is some states it is legal, however most of these guns are very old and the "new" ones are 30+ years old

Extended/30 round clips can be purchased in Nevada, not too far from California.

Suppressors - 42 states currently allow private ownership of suppressors. Pretty easy to get if you want.

AP Rounds - Green tips are pretty common and easy enough to come by and those have tungsten cores that act as armor piercing.

 

Now, please don't take this the wrong way, but are you pro guns? Specifically, guns and or accessories that really no normal civilian for range/home protection use needs?

 

Fully-auto weapons are VERY highly regulated by the ATF. It takes an application process that spans sometimes YEARS to get approved to buy one. Then, you need to have the money to afford it. They are not cheap, typically $30,000 and up from my experience.

 

Suppressors are also VERY highly regulated by the ATF. I've heard of the application process taking 8-12 MONTHS to get approved.

 

Armor piercing rounds are useless unless you are shooting at people wearing body armor and that only happens if you are specifically targeting police and even then they may not work depending on the armor level of hte officer's vest. They go from a Level 1 to a Level 4 I believe. A level 4 vest would stop a green tip .223 round if I am remembering correctly.

[ncoday]

4 hours ago, ncoday said:

Fully-auto weapons are VERY highly regulated by the ATF. It takes an application process that spans sometimes YEARS to get approved to buy one. Then, you need to have the money to afford it. They are not cheap, typically $30,000 and up from my experience.

 

Suppressors are also VERY highly regulated by the ATF. I've heard of the application process taking 8-12 MONTHS to get approved.

 

Armor piercing rounds are useless unless you are shooting at people wearing body armor and that only happens if you are specifically targeting police and even then they may not work depending on the armor level of hte officer's vest. They go from a Level 1 to a Level 4 I believe. A level 4 vest would stop a green tip .223 round if I am remembering correctly.

Also to add, the green tip 5.56 rounds, commonly referred to as M855, are NOT armor piercing. They just have a steel tip for long distance penetration due to the nature of the round. 

[techbeck]

The kids doing these kind of things are from the same generation then the kids who eat those stupid tide pods and who do other stupid things.  World is getting dumber and dumber.   About time to watch Idiocracy again.

[DocM]

The excrement just hit the fan; the FBI admits it should have acted, and Florida's Governor demands FBI Director Wray resign. Heads gonna roll over this one.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/16/us/fbi-nikolas-cruz-shooting.html

 

 

[+Warwagon MVC]

27 minutes ago, DocM said:

The excrement just hit the fan; the FBI admits it should have acted, and Florida's Governor demands FBI Director Wray resign. Heads gonna roll over this one.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/16/us/fbi-nikolas-cruz-shooting.html

 

 

Seeing how the FBI dropped the ball, The next person that leaves a comment like that on youtube will have the fires of hell rain upon him.

[techbeck]

17 minutes ago, DocM said:

The excrement just hit the fan; the FBI admits it should have acted, and Florida's Governor demands FBI Director Wray resign. Heads gonna roll over this one.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/16/us/fbi-nikolas-cruz-shooting.html

 

 

Bunch of idiots.  A lot of these incidents could be prevented by just following procedure and using your head.

 

More needs to go in to looking for the warning signs.  Kids are just going nuts and the whole ban gun view aside, I am more interested in why this is happening to begin with.   Didn't hear about these things when I was growing up.  Occasional arguments ending in fists flying.  Bloody lip hear and there...

[DocM]

24 minutes ago, warwagon said:

Seeing how the FBI dropped the ball, The next person that leaves a comment like that on youtube will have the fires of hell rain upon him.

 

Oh, CRAP!....it wasn't the YouTube video 

 

https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-statement-on-the-shooting-in-parkland-florida

 

Quote

February 16, 2018

 

FBI Statement on the Shooting in Parkland, Florida

On January 5, 2018, a person close to Nikolas Cruz contacted the FBIs Public Access Line (PAL) tipline to report concerns about him. The caller provided information about Cruzs gun ownership, desire to kill people, erratic behavior, and disturbing social media posts, as well as the potential of him conducting a school shooting.

Under established protocols, the information provided by the caller should have been assessed as a potential threat to life. The information then should have been forwarded to the FBI Miami Field Office, where appropriate investigative steps would have been taken.

We have determined that these protocols were not followed for the information received by the PAL on January 5. The information was not provided to the Miami Field Office, and no further investigation was conducted at that time.

FBI Director Christopher Wray said:

"We are still investigating the facts. I am committed to getting to the bottom of what happened in this particular matter, as well as reviewing our processes for responding to information that we receive from the public. Its up to all Americans to be vigilant, and when members of the public contact us with concerns, we must act properly and quickly."

"We have spoken with victims and families, and deeply regret the additional pain this causes all those affected by this horrific tragedy. All of the men and women of the FBI are dedicated to keeping the American people safe, and are relentlessly committed to improving all that we do and how we do it."

 

[techbeck]

^^

incompetence at its finest.