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Santa Fe High School shooting

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FloatingFatMan    18,768
1 hour ago, adrynalyne said:

In this particular case, how would have gun control or outright banning affected them finding bombs? People intent on causing harm don’t care about laws. 

 

The root of the issue may involve guns but it’s not the cause. 

Actually, I never mentioned gun control...  The root of the problem isn't even your easy availability of guns. The root problem, IMO, is the societal attitude towards guns, and that they're the first thing people seem to reach for to solve their problems.

 

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adrynalyne    12,323
6 hours ago, FloatingFatMan said:

Actually, I never mentioned gun control...  The root of the problem isn't even your easy availability of guns. The root problem, IMO, is the societal attitude towards guns, and that they're the first thing people seem to reach for to solve their problems.

 

So my question remains; how do the bombs play into that theory?

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FloatingFatMan    18,768
8 minutes ago, adrynalyne said:

So my question remains; how do the bombs play into that theory?

They don't, this particular case is abnormal among US school shootings in that he had some, even though he didn't use them.

 

The point is though that no matter the form it takes, people in the US seem to reach for a weapon FIRST to solve their problems, instead of talking to someone about them.  Having a gun saturated society just means that when someone goes postal, they can inflict a LOT of damage in a very short time.

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SuperKid    90
On 5/18/2018 at 5:22 PM, ncoday said:

This about this article:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/london-murder-rate-new-york-compare-worse-stabbings-knife-crime-teenagers-statistics-figures-a8286866.html

 

"The Sunday Times compared the crime figures of London and New York, and found that for the first time in modern history the murder rate in the UK capital was higher than that in the Big Apple."

 

Think about that people, the UK where they essentially banned guns has a higher murder rate in a major city than NYC.

 

By the way, I dare anyone to claim that the Independent is even remotely conservative. They are quite liberal in their reporting, there are just some inescapable facts that cannot be hidden or covered up.

Do you think we should all have the right to have guns in the UK? Will this solve the high murder rate reported in the news article?

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Nashy    1,661
On 5/19/2018 at 10:42 AM, trag3dy said:

Considering the guy also had bombs he was looking to hurt people no matter what. The absence of guns wouldn't have changed that.

 

IMO this isn't a mental health case either, the kid just looks like a psychopath to me.

Ahh so that's the loop hole.  So long as they have another weapon, it's certainly not the guns.  Got it.

How many people did the bombs get again?

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adrynalyne    12,323
33 minutes ago, Nashy said:

Ahh so that's the loop hole.  So long as they have another weapon, it's certainly not the guns.  Got it.

How many people did the bombs get again?

How many people did the bombs in Boston get? Because the bombs are unexploded, they are inconsequential and not part of the problem? Not sure why you are downplaying this. This individual was intent on killing and guns may have been a method but it wasn’t his only one in mind. Clearly if guns hadn’t been available he would have used something else. 

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exotoxic    684
6 hours ago, SuperKid said:

Do you think we should all have the right to have guns in the UK? Will this solve the high murder rate reported in the news article?

You can legally own certain shotguns and rifles but you have to go through a whole process of interviews (including 3rd parties), background checks and your home security and storage has to be checked by the police before they will give you a license.

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+trag3dy    4,099
1 hour ago, Nashy said:

Ahh so that's the loop hole.  So long as they have another weapon, it's certainly not the guns.  Got it.

How many people did the bombs get again?

That's beside the point.

 

This guy wanted to kill people. Guns are just one of the things he attempted to use to achieve that goal.

 

So maybe let's try to fix the real problems yeah? What is compelling kids to go into schools to kill others? That's the real issue. Guns certainly make it easier but they are not the cause.


As a side note all the "sensible gun laws" in the world wouldn't have changed this because the guns he used were stolen.

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Nashy    1,661
4 minutes ago, trag3dy said:

That's beside the point.

 

This guy wanted to kill people. Guns are just one of the things he attempted to use to achieve that goal.

 

So maybe let's try to fix the real problems yeah? What is compelling kids to go into schools to kill others? That's the real issue. Guns certainly make it easier but they are not the cause.


As a side note all the "sensible gun laws" in the world wouldn't have changed this because the guns he used were stolen.

You wanna use this to push your rubbish argument that gun laws don't need changing, then I am to.  That's a real problem whether you want to bury your head further in the sand or not.

1 hour ago, adrynalyne said:

How many people did the bombs in Boston get? Because the bombs are unexploded, they are inconsequential and not part of the problem? Not sure why you are downplaying this. This individual was intent on killing and guns may have been a method but it wasn’t his only one in mind. Clearly if guns hadn’t been available he would have used something else. 

I don't think I'm downplaying that part at all.  I'm just trying to stop the constant downplaying of guns not ever being the problem by some people on this site.  I agree that in this case, things are certainly different, but that's not to say it's not yet another reminder than guns in the USA are one hell of an issue.

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+trag3dy    4,099
4 minutes ago, Nashy said:

You wanna use this to push your rubbish argument that gun laws don't need changing, then I am to.  That's a real problem whether you want to bury your head further in the sand or not.

I don't think I'm downplaying that part at all.  I'm just trying to stop the constant downplaying of guns not ever being the problem by some people on this site.  I agree that in this case, things are certainly different, but that's not to say it's not yet another reminder than guns in the USA are one hell of an issue.

It's not really the real problem though. Unless you're implying guns somehow make people go out and kill others.

 

I guess we're also ignoring statistics that say violent crime in the US is going down year by year and has been since the 1980's. That includes school shootings.

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Nashy    1,661
33 minutes ago, trag3dy said:

It's not really the real problem though. Unless you're implying guns somehow make people go out and kill others.

 

I guess we're also ignoring statistics that say violent crime in the US is going down year by year and has been since the 1980's. That includes school shootings.

I disagree.  I think it is a major, major part of the problem.  But it's a pointless argument so lets not bother with it.

Not ignoring them, but lets use school shootings.  If you think it's decreasing quick enough... well, that's a little bit sad.  I hope you and your family never are on the wrong side of your love for guns, and I mean that sincerely.

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adrynalyne    12,323
1 hour ago, Nashy said:

You wanna use this to push your rubbish argument that gun laws don't need changing, then I am to.  That's a real problem whether you want to bury your head further in the sand or not.

I don't think I'm downplaying that part at all.  I'm just trying to stop the constant downplaying of guns not ever being the problem by some people on this site.  I agree that in this case, things are certainly different, but that's not to say it's not yet another reminder than guns in the USA are one hell of an issue.

Guns are only a problem in that they are an easy use item. A killer will kill regardless of the tool. Would you agree?

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Nashy    1,661
2 hours ago, adrynalyne said:

Guns are only a problem in that they are an easy use item. A killer will kill regardless of the tool. Would you agree?

No, I don't agree.  I have no doubt that if at least some of these loons found it far harder to get a weapon, we would see far less shootings.  That's the bit that the gun crowd simply don't seem to comprehend.  It WILL make a difference, I don't understand how so many argue against that.

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adrynalyne    12,323
6 minutes ago, Nashy said:

No, I don't agree.  I have no doubt that if at least some of these loons found it far harder to get a weapon, we would see far less shootings.  That's the bit that the gun crowd simply don't seem to comprehend.  It WILL make a difference, I don't understand how so many argue against that.

Well then we will have to agree to disagree. 

I’ve not argued against gun change, simply that the misuse is a symptom of something else entirely. 

 

Knife crime rises in England and Wales as London murders surge

 

 

According to the Office for National Statistics (ONS), police recorded 39,598 offences involving a knife or sharp instrument in 2017 - up from 32,468 in the previous 12 months.

 

https://news.sky.com/story/knife-crime-rises-in-england-and-wales-as-london-murders-surge-11346934

 

I’m sure this would have been guns had they been more readily available. 

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Nashy    1,661
5 minutes ago, adrynalyne said:

Well then we will have to agree to disagree. 

I’ve not argued against gun change, simply that the misuse is a symptom of something else entirely. 

 

Knife crime rises in England and Wales as London murders surge

 

 

According to the Office for National Statistics (ONS), police recorded 39,598 offences involving a knife or sharp instrument in 2017 - up from 32,468 in the previous 12 months.

 

https://news.sky.com/story/knife-crime-rises-in-england-and-wales-as-london-murders-surge-11346934

 

I’m sure this would have been guns had they been more readily available. 

I bet a lot of those would have involved guns.  But I wonder how many more deaths and attacks there would have been if it was as simple to get a gun.

You are right, there is certainly a lot of factors at play, and I certainly don't mean to come across as saying that a change in gun control would fix it 100%.  But I'm also not prepared to say, and defend doing absolutely and utterly nothing unless they can 100% fix it.  Expecting a different result when nothing has been done is really turning out to not be working.

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+ncoday    432
23 hours ago, SuperKid said:

Do you think we should all have the right to have guns in the UK? Will this solve the high murder rate reported in the news article?

I cannot say with certainty as the US & UK are very dissimilar cultures. Solve it completely, no. Help a great deal, I think that is likely.

 

Violent crime has actually been on the decline in the US since the 1990's while gun ownership has been on the rise. This can be verified by looking the FBI's crime statistics: https://ucr.fbi.gov/

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SuperKid    90
3 hours ago, ncoday said:

I cannot say with certainty as the US & UK are very dissimilar cultures. Solve it completely, no. Help a great deal, I think that is likely.

 

Violent crime has actually been on the decline in the US since the 1990's while gun ownership has been on the rise. This can be verified by looking the FBI's crime statistics: https://ucr.fbi.gov/

For me, guns scare me. If I see someone holding a gun I am scared. I don't like it when I see armed police with guns they make me so nervous. I guess I have just been bought up like that.

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Mockingbird    2,786

According to Texas Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick, the real causes of school shootings are: Violent video games, Removing religion from schools, Abortions and 'broken' families, Irresponsible gun owners, Too many entrances to schools, and Unarmed teachers.

 

Apparently, guns wasn't one of them.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/20/us/texas-lieutenant-governor-dan-patrick-reasons-for-school-shootings/index.html

 

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adrynalyne    12,323
7 minutes ago, Mockingbird said:

According to Texas Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick, the real causes of school shootings are: Violent video games, Removing religion from schools, Abortions and 'broken' families, Irresponsible gun owners, Too many entrances to schools, and Unarmed teachers.

 

Apparently, guns wasn't one of them.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/20/us/texas-lieutenant-governor-dan-patrick-reasons-for-school-shootings/index.html

 

He is right. Guns aren’t the cause. They are the tool used due of the cause. I can see you haven’t been reading this thread. 

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Mockingbird    2,786
15 minutes ago, adrynalyne said:

He is right. Guns aren’t the cause. They are the tool used due of the cause. I can see you haven’t been reading this thread. 

You can make that argument for literally anything.

 

"Nukes aren't the problem, therefore I should be able to own one!"

 

"Chemical weapons aren't the problem, therefore I should be able to have some!"

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+trag3dy    4,099
21 minutes ago, Mockingbird said:

You can make that argument for literally anything.

 

"Nukes aren't the problem, therefore I should be able to own one!"

 

"Chemical weapons aren't the problem, therefore I should be able to have some!"

Just a little bit of false equivalence there. Unless you too are implying guns are making people go out and kill.

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Mockingbird    2,786
1 minute ago, trag3dy said:

Just a little bit of false equivalence there.

Nope. That would be when someone compared school shootings to smoking earlier.

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+trag3dy    4,099
7 minutes ago, Mockingbird said:

Nope. That would be when someone compared school shootings to smoking earlier.

Ironically smoking leads to more preventable deaths yearly than guns. Smoking is in fact the #1 cause of preventable deaths in the US yearly.

 

But hey... facts.

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Mockingbird    2,786
9 minutes ago, trag3dy said:

Ironically smoking leads to more preventable deaths yearly than guns. Smoking is in fact the #1 cause of preventable deaths in the US yearly.

  

 But hey... facts.

...which has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand

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+trag3dy    4,099
1 minute ago, Mockingbird said:

...which has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand

It kind of does though. It illustrates how you're focusing solely on guns and completely ignoring the real cause.

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