4K HDTV and Upscaling - Can 1080p from a PC be upscaled by a 4K HDTV?

[PGHammer]

I'm actually surprised that more reviews (mini or otherwise) have not tackled this (for multiple reasons); however, I am asking exactly this question.  The reason I am asking it is simple enough- I am, in fact, currently using a TV as a display (however, said TV is less capable than my normal PC display)  Then my TV gets upgraded, not only with the script be flipped (the TV display will outstrip the PC's capabilities by a rather significant margin).  The PC is, in fact, capable of 1080p (that is, in fact, the default when connected to its normal display) - is it possible 9let alone feasible) to feed the HDTV 1080p and let the TV's own display engine handle the upscaling chores? (I'm not referring to YouTube - the TV has a separate app for that.)  If it is indeed possible (and I see no technical reason why it wouldn't be), what settings (Windows) make sense for content that will be upscaled?  While I am looking at the upcoming Toshiba FireTV Edition, the same question SHOULD, in fact, apply to any 4K TV (or any HDTV that upscales, external inputs, for that matter).

[DevTech]

On 6/1/2018 at 9:30 PM, PGHammer said:

I'm actually surprised that more reviews (mini or otherwise) have not tackled this (for multiple reasons); however, I am asking exactly this question.  The reason I am asking it is simple enough- I am, in fact, currently using a TV as a display (however, said TV is less capable than my normal PC display)  Then my TV gets upgraded, not only with the script be flipped (the TV display will outstrip the PC's capabilities by a rather significant margin).  The PC is, in fact, capable of 1080p (that is, in fact, the default when connected to its normal display) - is it possible 9let alone feasible) to feed the HDTV 1080p and let the TV's own display engine handle the upscaling chores? (I'm not referring to YouTube - the TV has a separate app for that.)  If it is indeed possible (and I see no technical reason why it wouldn't be), what settings (Windows) make sense for content that will be upscaled?  While I am looking at the upcoming Toshiba FireTV Edition, the same question SHOULD, in fact, apply to any 4K TV (or any HDTV that upscales, external inputs, for that matter).

1. Ideal option is two 1080 Ti in SLI which handles almost every current game at 4K

 

2. Upscaling 1080p to 4K is 100% a specific feature of the exact model and brand of TV that you purchase. Usually good upscaling is a feature found in top models of premium "Prosumer" lines in various brands and those TVs will have faster CPUs and sometimes a specialized licensed upscale chip. It might be cheaper to buy two 1080 ti GPUs than a premium Prosumer level TV

 

This describes the 4K scaling chip in the Sony XBR TV line:

 

https://www.sony.ca/en/electronics/4k-resolution-4k-upscaling-tvs

 

3. A separate upscaling box can be purchased but it is probably cheaper to buy two 1080 ti GPUs

 

4. Cheapo upscaling actually looks like cheapo upscaling and will vary from TV to TV depending on brand, line, and model.

 

[Mindovermaster Moderator]

2 hours ago, DevTech said:

1. Ideal option is two 1080 Ti in SLI which handles almost every current game at 4K

AFAIK, not many games support SLI...

[DevTech]

3 hours ago, Mindovermaster said:

AFAIK, not many games support SLI...

Some major ones do and to run those games with all the same effects turned on with a 4K resolution currently needs more than one 1080 ti

 

The GPU power has not kept pace with the rapid price reduction of 4K TVs

 

The situation is even worse if you give it more thought since just maintaining the same shader effects and anti-aliasing does not do the 4K resolution the justice it deserves where the kick-you-in-the-pants visual improvement will come from an increased polygon count in the 3D models, along with 4K texture rasterization.

 

But since the current top-end GPUs can't even handle the upscale of "low resolution" polygon models, it might be quite some time before installing games on 4K computers will have a 4K 3D asset pipeline.

 

If you own a 1080, the best option right now is to run the 4K monitor at a 2K resolution. You won't notice the difference until hi-res 3D models hit the market and by then your 1080 will be obsolete!

 

Personally, I don't have time to play games so if any reader here knows of any games with a full 4K render pathway, I would be quite interested to find out.

 

 

 

 

[DevTech]

NVIDIA's suggestions for 4K game dev:

 

https://developer.nvidia.com/4k-ultra-high-resolution-development

 

 

Some quotes, and item #6 is where I feel there is a large attention gap. Current 4K is all about #2:

 

 

2) Provide the Highest Resolution Textures

 

Texture content that is optimized to avoid magnification at 1080p resolution will magnify at 4K, leading to blurry textures when you get up close to surfaces. To maximize the quality at 4K screen resolution, provide the highest texel density you possibly can in your game by using the largest possible texture sizes. For example, for textures where the player can get close enough for 1:1 texel to pixel ratio, 4096 x 4096 textures will provide the highest quality. This is especially important for textures which provide detail, such as albedo textures, normal maps, and displacement maps, but can also be important for procedurally generated textures, such as light maps, which can be generated at higher resolution for display on 4K screens.

 

4) Optimize for SLI

 

4K UHD has four times the pixels of 1080p – which means four times the pixel workload. Scaling with SLI multi-GPU setups will be even more important to ensure the smoothest experience at 4K resolutions. Be careful to avoid the usual SLI pitfalls, such as interframe dependencies, CPU-GPU sync points, and improper use of queries.

You can find the SLI developer documentation here.

 

6) Perform Adaptive Tessellation Based on Screen Space Metrics

 

Tessellation is a great fit for 4K displays, as the additional detail will be even more impressive at high resolutions. To get the most of adaptive tessellation on 4K, make sure you're using adaptive techniques which take into account screen resolution when determining tessellation factor. You'll want to be using more triangles at 4K, and screen-space tessellation metrics will naturally provide this.

 

 

 

[goretsky Supervisor]

Hello,

 

Last year, Ars Technica reviewed a specialized cable that claims to upscale video from 1080p to 4K:  https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/09/theres-a-directional-120-hdmi-cable-that-actually-improves-your-picture-quality/

 

Regards,

Aryeh Goretsky

[DevTech]

31 minutes ago, goretsky said:

Hello,

 

Last year, Ars Technica reviewed a specialized cable that claims to upscale video from 1080p to 4K:  https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/09/theres-a-directional-120-hdmi-cable-that-actually-improves-your-picture-quality/

 

Regards,

Aryeh Goretsky

Thanks for the weird product of the year link!

 

https://www.pcper.com/reviews/General-Tech/Marseille-mCable-Gaming-Edition-Remove-Aliasing-HDMI-Cable

 

https://youtu.be/MjJzibFTaqA

 

https://www.marseilleinc.com/cinema-edition/

 

https://www.marseilleinc.com/gaming-edition/

 

I can't decide if this is very useful or not for a PC 1080P to 4K upscale. It seems to have various limitations on frame rate etc and the 4K upscale is 4:2:0 instead of 4:4:4 

 

I would guess that the chip implanted in the cable is similar to the upscale chip in a cheap or mid priced TV and so the "Gaming Edition" of the cable which provides anti-aliasing which a TV scaler might not focus on, has possible usage in some scenarios. From the review it seems like a good option for a PS2, PS3, XBox 360 and maybe a PC with a very crappy GPU.

 

From the photos and review video, the visual improvement was too subtle to be worth the money and time spend fiddling with it, at least for my approach to things where I prefer to wait and spend more to get greater value.

 

Scaling with the Sony XBR chip or a NVIDIA 1080 is going to be light years better.

 

Anyways, thanks to the OP for the original question since I am now aware of the deficiencies with the flood of cheap 4K TVs on the market. I'm gong to hold out for a Sony XBR or equivalent when the time comes for the big 4K switch-over.

 

 

 

[Mando]

On 6/4/2018 at 2:48 AM, Mindovermaster said:

AFAIK, not many games support SLI...

huh? 

https://www.game-debate.com/news/10694/complete-list-of-compatible-nvidia-sli-supported-games

 

id say thats a good few, and tbh if you ramp down AA and AF (not really needed at 4k res) on a single 1080ti itll handle 4k reasonably well, but as dev states, if you want everything cranked up on a single ti go 2k.

 

RE: question, why the heck would you want a crappy TV to upscale, you have the perfect upscaling tech in the GPU (s), superior to any upscaler thrown into a commerical TV. Heck even DSR does what you need ad is supported on all 9 series Nvs upwards iirc. I run 4k textures downscaled to 1080p via DSR while I wait for HDR monitors to drop in price.

[Mindovermaster Moderator]

4 minutes ago, Mando said:

huh? 

https://www.game-debate.com/news/10694/complete-list-of-compatible-nvidia-sli-supported-games

 

id say thats a good few, and tbh if you ramp down AA and AF (not really needed at 4k res) on a single 1080ti itll handle 4k reasonably well.

 

RE: question, why the heck would you want a crappy TV to upscale, you have the perfect upscaling tech in the GPU (s), superior to any upscaler thrown into a commerical TV.

Just what I hard, that's all. I never messed with SLI/X-fire, so...

[Mando]

3 hours ago, Mindovermaster said:

Just what I hard, that's all. I never messed with SLI/X-fire, so...

im the same tbh mate, last time was Voodoo II SLI so i could hit a heady 1024x768 in F16 MRF :P at least that gave you 2x the perf modren SLI doesnt i believe, rather up the single card, hence rocking a 1080ti F.E. from EVGA.

[DevTech]

4 hours ago, Mando said:

huh? 

https://www.game-debate.com/news/10694/complete-list-of-compatible-nvidia-sli-supported-games

 

id say thats a good few, and tbh if you ramp down AA and AF (not really needed at 4k res) on a single 1080ti itll handle 4k reasonably well, but as dev states, if you want everything cranked up on a single ti go 2k.

 

RE: question, why the heck would you want a crappy TV to upscale, you have the perfect upscaling tech in the GPU (s), superior to any upscaler thrown into a commerical TV. Heck even DSR does what you need ad is supported on all 9 series Nvs upwards iirc. I run 4k textures downscaled to 1080p via DSR while I wait for HDR monitors to drop in price.

I think the assumption here is that the OP was curious to know if a small TV upgrade would give him decent 4K scaling since the cost of both a 4K TV and a new GPU probably exceeds his budget.

 

Since "decent" is very subjective, it might work depending on the health of his physical eyesight and his "minds eyesight" - For me, I'd notice the crappy upscaler in an instant and then would never be able to "unsee" how crappy it is.

 

I'm guessing the equation is something like this:

 

any GPU + Sony XBR > NVIDIA 1080 + cheap 4K TV > current-GPU + lower-mid-priced 4K TV with middle-muddle upscaler chip.

 

For gaming, as you state, the NVIDIA is likely the only suitable option for people with both types of functional eyesight.

 

EDIT: The "equation" above refers to cost. Sony XBR (or equivilent) + NVIDIA 1080 would give max visual performance for both gaming and upscaling DVDs and other legacy sources but the cost is more.