gigafactory Tesla Vehicle/Gigafactory/Solarcity/Solar Roof News and Updates Megathread

[Unobscured Vision]

Yep. Elon's got this well in hand, and he knows the regulations well enough to know if he's breaking them or not (unless it's something obscure and seldom-used). I'm willing to bet he went over this with Legal before making any announcements, so I'm sure he knows what he's doing.

[theyarecomingforyou]

32 minutes ago, Unobscured Vision said:

Yep. Elon's got this well in hand, and he knows the regulations well enough to know if he's breaking them or not (unless it's something obscure and seldom-used). I'm willing to bet he went over this with Legal before making any announcements, so I'm sure he knows what he's doing.

I doubt that very much. It seems like a desperate move to prop up the share price after all the negativity recently. One only has to look at the way he baselessly accused someone of being a paedophile just because they publicly criticised him for using a disaster as a PR opportunity, the Model 3 production delays and major issues with its solar roof project. And Musk only recently survived an attempt from investors to remove him from the company. Financial experts have also looked into his claim to take the company private and questioned how it would even work.

 

He's an egotist and capitalist, doing whatever it takes to further his own ambitions without regard for others.

[Emn1ty]

27 minutes ago, theyarecomingforyou said:

I doubt that very much. It seems like a desperate move to prop up the share price after all the negativity recently. One only has to look at the way he baselessly accused someone of being a paedophile just because they publicly criticised him for using a disaster as a PR opportunity, the Model 3 production delays and major issues with its solar roof project. And Musk only recently survived an attempt from investors to remove him from the company. Financial experts have also looked into his claim to take the company private and questioned how it would even work.

 

He's an egotist and capitalist, doing whatever it takes to further his own ambitions without regard for others.

Uh... yeah. Cause the whole basis of Tesla and Space X are about his own selfishness. Cause they were so profitable and all that. /s

[theyarecomingforyou]

14 minutes ago, Emn1ty said:

Uh... yeah. Cause the whole basis of Tesla and Space X are about his own selfishness. Cause they were so profitable and all that. /s

Well yes, actually. They're about profiting from government funding once the technology becomes marketable and positioning themselves to exploit resources in space, like mining asteroids. Companies like Amazon and Facebook didn't appear as a mega corporations from the get-go; they built themselves up to corner the market. Musk is not an altruist; he is the furthest from it. One only has to read the reports of the awful working conditions at Tesla factories to see that.

[DocM]

31 minutes ago, theyarecomingforyou said:

Well yes, actually. They're about profiting from government funding once the technology becomes marketable

 

Tesla took a govt loan offered by Obama to all takers and paid it off 10 years early, with interest.

 

SpaceX didn't take loans: it competitively bid on NASA development contracts offeted to all takers, and won them.

 

Further, the tech they developed has and will continue to save the govt FAR more than the cost of those contracts. Every USAF launch they do saves the govt between $80m and $300m over what they'd been paying. Ditto for NASA.

 

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and positioning themselves to exploit resources in space, like mining asteroids. 

 

SpaceX doesn't isn't focussed on  asteroid mining, though they will likely  launch those who are. In short, they're  a taxi service.

 

Other companies/govts are or will be focussed on asteroid mining, and many of them will be hiring people trained at the Colorado School of Mines Space Resource program. 

 

Mars is different; if you're setting up a base or colony in-situ resource utilization (ISRU) for survival is a given.

 

Whoever goes would need to do ISRU, and after this week's international SpaceX Mars Workshop for those interested in participating it may be crowded,

 

SpaceX Mars Workshop participants,

SpaceX 
Tesla
NASA HQ
JPL/Caltech
NASA AMES 
NASA AMES Bay Area Environmental Research Institute
NASA Glenn 
NASA JSC 
Aerospace Corporation
European Space Agency
Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA)
Mohammed Bin Rashid Space Centre (MBRSC) UAE
EchoStar
Aeronautical Systems, Inc
Lunar and Planetary Labortory 
Caterpillar Inc 
Honeybee Robotics
Maxar 
Bechtel Corporation 
Ball Aerospace 
Schlumberger 
Freestyle Analytical & Quantitative Services, LLC 
Planetary Science Institute 
MIT
Laboratory for Atmospheric and Space Physics U. Colorado, Boulder 
Arizona State University 
University of Arizona ASU Research Enterprise (ASURE)  
Colorado School of Mines (Space Resources Program)
University of Colorado, Boulder 
University of Florida
Brown University 
University of Central Florida
University of Western Ontario

Edited August 9, 2018 by DocM

[bguy_1986]

Throwing in my 2 cents.  I don't think he started SpaceX/Tesla solely to get rich.  He seen a need.  We were pretty stagnant in both industries.  We weren't seeing a lot of innovation.  

 

He's got a huge voice now, and he's got a little bit of an ego that keeps growing. I hope it's not all going to his head IMO.  Not trying to throw insults his way, I don't know that I'd be any better.  He probably needs to start another company or something or go back to concentrating on innovating instead of the politics of running businesses. ?  It's concerning to me that he would so quickly call someone a pedophile.  

[theyarecomingforyou]

6 minutes ago, DocM said:

Tesla took a govt loan offered by Obama to all takers and paid it off 10 years early, with interest.

 

SpaceX didn't take loans: it competitively bid on NASA development contracts offeted to all takers, and won them.

 

Further, the tech they developed has and will continue to save the govt FAR more than the cost of those contracts. Every USAF launch they do saves the govt between $80m and $300m be over what they'd been paying.

It doesn't matter if it saves money at first, as companies always seek to profit once they have established themselves. Look at what Facebook was when it launched and compare it now, where it is simply an advertising platform. And the success of private space companies has only happened due to NASA's repeated funding cuts and political interference.

6 minutes ago, DocM said:

SpaceX doesn't isn't focussed on  asteroid mining, though they will likely  launch those who are. In short, they're  a taxi service.

 

Other companies/govts are or will be focussed on asteroid mining, and many of them will be hiring people trained at the Colorado School of Mines Space Resource program. 

 

Mars is different; if you're setting up a base or colony in-situ resource utilization for survival is a given.

 

SpaceX, NASA, ESA, JAXA or Canada would all need to do it, and after this week's international SpaceX Mars conference they'll all likely be involved. 

Yeah, and Amazon started as a book company. Space technology offers profits the like of which have never been seen on the planet. There is a massive competitive advantage to being one of the first companies in the market. Like with Facebook, YouTube, Apple, etc, the money is there is be made once they have achieved market dominance, not in the early days.

[DocM]

3 minutes ago, theyarecomingforyou said:

It doesn't matter if it saves money at first, as companies always seek to profit once they have established themselves. 

 

Making a profit is how they stay in business, duh. 

 

3 minutes ago, theyarecomingforyou said:

Space technology offers profits the like of which have never been seen on the planet. There is a massive competitive advantage to being one of the first companies in the market. 

 

Very old saying: "How do you become a $1B space company? Start out with $100B"

 

99% of  space companies fail,

 

Those who are willing to take the risks and work the hardest get the largest reward. Since both SpaceX and Tesla workers get shares in the company they share in those rewards.

 

BTW: Tesla's safety record is about the same as other auto companies. You hear a lot because the UAW is trying to force a unionization of Tesla workers via PR shills.

 

Problem: UAW screwed over the workers at that factory so bad under the GM deal they want nothing to do with UAW again. EVER. 

 

A hilarious occurrence in Detroit is how often workers at the UAW headquarters go on strike for "unfair labor practices" ?

[theyarecomingforyou]

33 minutes ago, DocM said:

Making a profit is how they stay in business, duh. 

In a capitalist society. Space exploration should be a cause to unite humanity, to move towards grander goals and not be a tool for a handful of individuals to become obscenely rich and powerful.

33 minutes ago, DocM said:

Very old saying: "How do you become a $1B space company? Start out with $100B"

 

99% of  space companies fail,

 

Those who are willing to take the risks and work the hardest get the largest reward. Since both SpaceX and Tesla workers get shares in the company they share in those rewards.

Society should take that risk, not individuals seeking to profit through monopolisation of the industry. That's what the United States did with the Space Race and it united the country. It's hard to get behind space exploration when it will be used to exert control over people, rather than for the betterment of society.

33 minutes ago, DocM said:

BTW: Tesla's safety record is about the same as other auto companies. You hear a lot because the UAW is trying to force a unionization of Tesla workers via PR shills.

Oh dear, how dare people demand businesses protect their workforce! Outrageous!

[Unobscured Vision]

Nobody is saying otherwise, bud .. the issue with the Labor Unions is that they are very corrupt and usually run by some very unscrupulous individuals. Far more so than anyone would want to imagine. I used to believe in Unions until I got completely hosed by the Steelworkers Union ... never again will I trust one. EVER.

 

And to address your assertion that he's an egoist and a capitalist ... wrong. He's a self-professed Socialist. HE'S ONE OF YOURS. His pattern of behavior and action says that he's an altruist and solidly service-to-others. Tesla's employees make more per hour than he does (1.0 for them versus 0.9 for Elon). How is that, in any way, "egoist"? Because he's tired of the Wall Street shills (who are egoists and capitalists) short-selling and actually manipulating Tesla's stock prices?!

 

Your assertions concerning Elon's character and motivations in this matter are wildly askew versus reality.

[Emn1ty]

2 hours ago, theyarecomingforyou said:

In a capitalist society. Space exploration should be a cause to unite humanity, to move towards grander goals and not be a tool for a handful of individuals to become obscenely rich and powerful.

Society should take that risk, not individuals seeking to profit through monopolisation of the industry. That's what the United States did with the Space Race and it united the country. It's hard to get behind space exploration when it will be used to exert control over people, rather than for the betterment of society.

Oh dear, how dare people demand businesses protect their workforce! Outrageous!

The working conditions at SpaceX are something they disclose at the gate and compensate their workers for (it's why their salaries are 10-20% above market). And they aren't the only company or industry to have similar working conditions. The tech sector is rife with companies that don't pay out overtime and typically pad salaries to make up for long hours (because it's cheaper). So while you rant and get angry about SpaceX's working conditions realize that they are probably one of the only companies that really put that up-front and center. Not to mention most of their employees get a massive resume bump for working there for a couple years (they average burnout rate of SpaceX).

That said, many of Elon's programs show that their goal is to increase the quality of life for everyone. First off, Tesla is trying to get people to not only use zero emission vehicles but trying to get them available for the common consumer. On top of that, they're working on automated driving which eliminates much of the drawbacks of long commutes. Then we look at their solar panels, which give people independence from the grid and safety when the grid fails. This extends to entire countries which have proven the value of having some of Tesla's battery technology.

Then we can take a look at The Boring Company, who's general goal is to provide fast (and free) transit solutions to help minimize the hours wasted in commutes and transit. Lastly, we move to SpaceX, who's entire goal is to make space affordable and accessible. So much so that when opportunity strikes it even pivots to trying to make international commutes faster.

Oh, and almost forgot; the global satellite internet project they've put out. Sure you could argue it's for them to stay better connected with their space operations, but it'll be free internet for anyone with access to it.

You can argue all you want about this being "for the money", or "for control" over people; but at the end of the day that's just your opinion. Speculation. The vast majority of these things do not harm people, they help. Regardless of how "evil" you think the intentions are or how big an ego Musk has.

[DocM]

3 hours ago, theyarecomingforyou said:

In a capitalist society. Space exploration should be a cause to unite humanity, 

 

Most of humanity has capitalist economies, even "communist" China.

Quote

Oh dear, how dare people demand businesses protect their workforce! Outrageous!

 

Back in the late 1960's I'd have agreed with you wrt most unions, but those were the days of Walter Reuther, George Meany, John L. Lewis etc. Very honorable men. 

 

Crooked union activities were pretty much limited to Jimmy Hoffa of the Teamsters, who was deeply involved with the Lucchese and Gambino crime families, and the East Coast dock wokers, construction and other trade unions.  They've kept the FBI busy for 80 years; "The Soprano's"  was more fact than fiction.

 

Then it got worse. Which is why so many US workers have abandoned the unions since the 1970's. 

[theyarecomingforyou]

8 hours ago, Unobscured Vision said:

Nobody is saying otherwise, bud .. the issue with the Labor Unions is that they are very corrupt and usually run by some very unscrupulous individuals. Far more so than anyone would want to imagine. I used to believe in Unions until I got completely hosed by the Steelworkers Union ... never again will I trust one. EVER.

So all unions are bad and people should just trust businesses to look out for workers? Keep lapping up the capitalist propaganda. Perhaps you should campaign to improve unions and their practices rather than undermine them and the benefits they provide their workers.

Quote

And to address your assertion that he's an egoist and a capitalist ... wrong. He's a self-professed Socialist. HE'S ONE OF YOURS.

No, he absolutely is not. I could call myself an elephant but that doesn't make it so. Socialism is about workers controlling the means of production and sharing in the economic output. He has blocked unionisation, paid low wages and ordered mandatory overtime for workers. He is a billionaire and can afford to pay employees out of his own wealth but instead demands extremely loyalty and hardwork for a pittance whilst telling them the company isn't profitable yet. He is the epitomy of a capitalist.

 

That you would even claim he's a socialist—regardless of his proclamations—demonstrates you don't even know what socialism is. I mean Musk called Marx a capitalist - the man is clearly detatched from reality.

Quote

His pattern of behavior and action says that he's an altruist and solidly service-to-others. Tesla's employees make more per hour than he does (1.0 for them versus 0.9 for Elon). How is that, in any way, "egoist"? Because he's tired of the Wall Street shills (who are egoists and capitalists) short-selling and actually manipulating Tesla's stock prices?!

Musk is a billionaire - he doesn't need to make any money. Meanwhile his workers are paid below the industry average and have substantialy worse working conditions. As for short-selling, I'm absolutely against it but that doesn't excuse him potentially breaking the law by manipulating the share price himself.

7 hours ago, Emn1ty said:

The working conditions at SpaceX are something they disclose at the gate and compensate their workers for (it's why their salaries are 10-20% above market). And they aren't the only company or industry to have similar working conditions. The tech sector is rife with companies that don't pay out overtime and typically pad salaries to make up for long hours (because it's cheaper). So while you rant and get angry about SpaceX's working conditions realize that they are probably one of the only companies that really put that up-front and center. Not to mention most of their employees get a massive resume bump for working there for a couple years (they average burnout rate of SpaceX).

Oh, so everything's good because they say it's a terrible job when people apply? Well, that's fine then! ?

Quote

That said, many of Elon's programs show that their goal is to increase the quality of life for everyone. First off, Tesla is trying to get people to not only use zero emission vehicles but trying to get them available for the common consumer. On top of that, they're working on automated driving which eliminates much of the drawbacks of long commutes. Then we look at their solar panels, which give people independence from the grid and safety when the grid fails. This extends to entire countries which have proven the value of having some of Tesla's battery technology.

Then we can take a look at The Boring Company, who's general goal is to provide fast (and free) transit solutions to help minimize the hours wasted in commutes and transit. Lastly, we move to SpaceX, who's entire goal is to make space affordable and accessible. So much so that when opportunity strikes it even pivots to trying to make international commutes faster.

Oh, and almost forgot; the global satellite internet project they've put out. Sure you could argue it's for them to stay better connected with their space operations, but it'll be free internet for anyone with access to it.

You can argue all you want about this being "for the money", or "for control" over people; but at the end of the day that's just your opinion. Speculation. The vast majority of these things do not harm people, they help. Regardless of how "evil" you think the intentions are or how big an ego Musk has.

It's all being done for profit. He's trying to capitalise on a cause that people believe in. If he was a socialist or altruist he couldn't be a billionaire. He is a capitalist and egotist, seeking only to benefit himself and his legacy.

6 hours ago, DocM said:

Most of humanity has capitalist economies, even "communist" China.

And most communities have murderers and paedophiles; just because something is endemic doesn't mean it is acceptable. Capitalism is responsible for rampant wealth inequality, poverty, selfishness, environmental damage, political corruptions and much more. It inherently pits people against each other whilst the ruling class is able to amass control with great ease. That's not to say that socialism or communism have been done right to date but the resources of the planet should be utilised for the benefit of all and the environment should be protected for the long term benefit of society. Capitalism will only get worse with automation and the reduction of human workforces. Should businesses be allowed to build robots just so they can profit whilst millions are unable to find work or support themselves? Because that's what we'll see with automation of taxis, trucking, manufacturing, etc. The current trajectory of capitalism is utterly unsustainable.

Quote

Back in the late 1960's I'd have agreed with you wrt most unions, but those were the days of Walter Reuther, George Meany, John L. Lewis etc. Very honorable men. 

 

Crooked union activities were pretty much limited to Jimmy Hoffa of the Teamsters, who was deeply involved with the Lucchese and Gambino crime families, and the East Coast dock wokers, construction and other trade unions.  They've kept the FBI busy for 80 years; "The Soprano's"  was more fact than fiction.

 

Then it got worse. Which is why so many US workers have abandoned the unions since the 1970's. 

Unions were taken over by capitalists and undermined by relentless capitalist propaganda against them. I don't doubt that many unions are unfit for purpose but I would rather see them reformed or new, effective unions replace them than to trust capitalists to do the right thing by their workers. Right now they provide some benefits to members - without them they provide none. I wouldn't call that an improvement.

[DocM]

OK, enough already. I'm done with you taking this thread far afield. Please take your class and political warfare crap to the appropriate forums. 

Edited August 10, 2018 by DocM

[SteveL]

I thought this was a forum dedicated to SCIENCE. Could everyone stop this non-sense?

[theyarecomingforyou]

As expected, Musk was lying about having secured funding to take Tesla private. He claims he is talking with a Saudi Arabia's sovereign wealth fund but that talks are ongoing, which is vastly different from the impression given in the tweet. Further, it's based on the assumption that most shareholders will hold onto shares when going private but that won't be an option for many big funds.

 

He is a charlatan, plain and simple. Now he faces a class-action lawsuit and is under investigation by the SEC.

[DocM]

Tesla closed up at $356.41. The market isn't worried, but the shorters are terrified being down $4B.

 

And this is still the wrong sub-forum.

[dipsylalapo Supervisor]

First and only warning, please let's keep this topic on topic. 

 

Goes for everyone, that this topic was created for the discussion of specific products mentioned in the title. Let's keep all talk about character and politics etc etc out. 

[DocM]

The Tesla Model 3 "Production Hell"  is ending: 5,000/week last month is up to ~7,000/week this week on its way to 10,000/week. 420,000 on order, and more orders are being as they're delivered. 

 

The teardowns by Detroit's Munro & Associates and a lab hired by German automakers estimate 25% to 30% profit per car. Munro says it has the best battery and computer they've ever seen, and a major battery update is coming next year.

 

Top Gear

 

[Unobscured Vision]

Ahhh   Want one. Want this and a Model S. I will have both, mark my words.  

[Jim K Global Moderator]

Ok, is this thread also about the auto segment of Tesla?

 

Should the title be updated?

[Unobscured Vision]

Ahh oops. Guess I messed that part up. Please do, @Jim K. Thanks.

Looks like it will take a Mod to change the topic title, it won't allow me to do it. Just checked.

[Unobscured Vision]

Oh dear ...  ... massive fallout incoming from this one.

 

 

/sigh .... bad move.

[IsItPluggedIn]

I feel like maybe, just maybe, Elon is doing this on purpose. To lower the stock price so he can buy it back at a cheaper price and take it private.

 

Either that or the stress has got to him and he has lost it.

 

 

[Beittil]

Sigh... I just don't get it. All these media types freaking the ###### out over Elon being Elon... Just let te guy be for a darn change. Geez.