forced shutdown due to game crashing PC ... no longer can boot PC...


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1 minute ago, DevTech said:

The lack of video from the on-board GPU is a clue.

 

With the video card removed it should default to that output unless there is a BIOS override. 

 

But any BIOS override you set, should have been cleared with the CMOS clear.

 

For sure.  The bios was reset the two times I was finally able to get in.  I have been leaving out the battery and remove the plug from the desktop.  going to try again in the morning

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2 minutes ago, AndyD said:

I appreciate the help either way. I just want the thing to boot up again and not worry about building a new pc for now

There is nothing about your config that warrants a new build so that's a good objective to keep it working if possible.

 

Most 4770K reach over 4 GHZ on a reliable overclock - did you ever fool around with changing detailed BIOS settings for overclocking or anything - no great point to the question other than trying to imagine how the RESET isn't quite working...

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2 minutes ago, AndyD said:

For sure.  The bios was reset the two times I was finally able to get in.  I have been leaving out the battery and remove the plug from the desktop.  going to try again in the morning

I don't like this remove battery and leave it idle stuff - too much like voodoo.

 

You didn't confirm the use of the actual jumper for the CMOS reset which is all you need to do for a fraction of a second and it's done. period.

 

The "remove the battery" voodoo is from laptops which don't have a reset jumper.

 

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New summary:

 

1. confirm use of actual jumper for CMOS reset.

 

2. borrow a ps/2 keyboard from someone just in case USB has been weirdly damaged.

 

3. if the CMOS clear is not working, and all else fails we might want to download the latest beta BIOS from ASUS and try a FLASH with of course some risk if it dies in the middle. Right now, the actual BIOS appears corrupted...

 

4. it might also be useful to move to the cardboard diagnostic stage of removing the mobo to a piece of cardboard and plugging in only PSU, keyboard, 1 RAM, and video cable.

 

Also, has the CPU ever been removed and reseated as part of your process. A damaged socket pin can cause oddities.

 

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11 minutes ago, DevTech said:

There is nothing about your config that warrants a new build so that's a good objective to keep it working if possible.

 

Most 4770K reach over 4 GHZ on a reliable overclock - did you ever fool around with changing detailed BIOS settings for overclocking or anything - no great point to the question other than trying to imagine how the RESET isn't quite working...

I don't do any overclocking on any hardware - I never saw the point.  If I ever felt the need I needed to overclock, I upgraded.  I haven't because besides some of the technical issues I've faced the pc has been working well enough. 

 

8 minutes ago, DevTech said:

I don't like this remove battery and leave it idle stuff - too much like voodoo.

 

You didn't confirm the use of the actual jumper for the CMOS reset which is all you need to do for a fraction of a second and it's done. period.

 

The "remove the battery" voodoo is from laptops which don't have a reset jumper.

 

I started to remove the battery after trying the memok button on the board which the manual mentions will clear the settings. directkey doesn't seem to help either. I wasn't seeing a difference so I figured the best way to make sure the bios settings are wiped is by removing the cmos battery

 

Otherwise, the only changes I usually make in the bios is to enable virtualization and turning the asus logo off.  and i guess the times I need to change boot order

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, AndyD said:

I wasn't see a difference so I figured the most surefire way to make sure the bios settings are wiped is by removing the cmos battery

That is the less sure way. There are capacitors that retain voltage so there is an unknown time which can be very long depending on design.

 

There will be a jumper pin always where you pull the jumper from pin 2-3, plug it into 1-2 and then back to 2-3

 

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4 minutes ago, DevTech said:

New summary:

 

1. confirm use of actual jumper for CMOS reset.

see above

4 minutes ago, DevTech said:

2. borrow a ps/2 keyboard from someone just in case USB has been weirdly damaged.

probably will be hard to do but if delete works then this shouldnt be the reason?

4 minutes ago, DevTech said:

3. if the CMOS clear is not working, and all else fails we might want to download the latest beta BIOS from ASUS and try a FLASH with of course some risk if it dies in the middle. Right now, the actual BIOS appears corrupted...

i can't get the pc to boot off of anything, though.

4 minutes ago, DevTech said:

4. it might also be useful to move to the cardboard diagnostic stage of removing the mobo to a piece of cardboard and plugging in only PSU, keyboard, 1 RAM, and video cable.

yeah, if i can't get the pc start up tomorrow I may have to do this but it will probably have to wait a few weeks when I can

4 minutes ago, DevTech said:

Also, has the CPU ever been removed and reseated as part of your process. A damaged socket pin can cause oddities.

 

Nope.  Same heatsink that I bought when I built the pc is still the same one attached.  It's a corsair watercooled enclosed cooler.  

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Just now, DevTech said:

That is the less sure way. There are capacitors that retain voltage so there is an unknown time which can be very long depending on design.

 

There will be a jumper pin always where you pull the jumper from pin 2-3, plug it into 1-2 and then back to 2-3

 

I was looking for that but I didn't see it mentioned in the manual. it only mentions the memok button.  doesn't even bother mentioning there is a directkey on it as well but it didnt make a difference

 

And yeah, I figured it can hold it for a period of time. That's why I decided to take a break and try again in the morning

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1 minute ago, AndyD said:

i can't get the pc to boot off of anything, though.

No. All modern mobos will detect a BIOS in the root dir of a FAT-32 formatted USB and automatically FLASH a BIOS update during the early boot stage which you are well past.

 

This process is specifically designed for corrupted BIOS and BAD FLASHES

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2 minutes ago, Mindovermaster said:

Dev is talking about #1 here: https://www.asus.com/support/FAQ/1000851

Ok.  I see that now.  Terrible design on this motherboard - the letters were a bit away from the two pins and barely legible.  I'll keep that in mind going forward.  Thank you

 

5 minutes ago, DevTech said:

No. All modern mobos will detect a BIOS in the root dir of a FAT-32 formatted USB and automatically FLASH a BIOS update during the early boot stage which you are well past.

 

This process is specifically designed for corrupted BIOS and BAD FLASHES

Ok, I did think I needed to get to a boot menu.  I will look into it in the morning if I can't get it to boot

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2 minutes ago, AndyD said:

Ok, I did think I needed to get to a boot menu.  I will look into it in the morning if I can't get it to boot

https://www.asus.com/support/faq/1012219

 

Just so you know the terminology used by ASUS

 

1. Download preferably a newer BIOS from ASUS site - look for beta versions or anything with a newer date since if the BIOS is currently confused as it appears to be, it won't normally update unless NEW BIOS IS NEWER.

 

2. put the download in the root - if download is compressed, unpack the raw BIN (or whatever) file to the root.

 

3. use a USB 2.0 stick, NOT 3.0

 

4. I haven't confirmed this, but apparently the on-board micro-computer can perform this operation WITHOUT a CPU chip or RAM in the mobo!

 

5. The last time I did this was before you bought your computer! So I can't recall how you know when the FLASH is complete... It is so low-level that there is no screen or anything, it probably just BEEPS...

 

 

 

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30 minutes ago, AndyD said:

I don't do any overclocking on any hardware - I never saw the point.  If I ever felt the need I needed to overclock, I upgraded.

Ignoring that you paid a few dollars extra for the unlocked "K" version, one fantastic thing about (mild) overclocking is that it becomes a training program to get you very familiar with your BIOS!

 

And it can expose issues with your PC worth fixing. Always safe if you stay really low on the overvolting. But it's not the performance kicker it used to be in the old days so the main point is a bit of tech fun and some worthwhile education and maybe, just maybe a tiny bit of system longevity before needing the next upgrade.

 

Free tech education and a few extra FPS, now that's a deal...

 

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2 minutes ago, DevTech said:

Ignoring that you paid a few dollars extra for the unlocked "K" version, one fantastic thing about (mild) overclocking is that it becomes a training program to get you very familiar with your BIOS!

 

And it can expose issues with your PC worth fixing. Always safe if you stay really low on the overvolting. But it's not the performance kicker it used to be in the old days so the main point is a bit of tech fun and some worthwhile education and maybe, just maybe a tiny bit of system longevity before needing the next upgrade.

 

Free tech education and a few extra FPS, now that's a deal...

 

Well, and, if you get the K version, you really should overclock it. It's meant for it...

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9 hours ago, DevTech said:

https://www.asus.com/support/faq/1012219

 

Just so you know the terminology used by ASUS

 

1. Download preferably a newer BIOS from ASUS site - look for beta versions or anything with a newer date since if the BIOS is currently confused as it appears to be, it won't normally update unless NEW BIOS IS NEWER.

 

2. put the download in the root - if download is compressed, unpack the raw BIN (or whatever) file to the root.

 

3. use a USB 2.0 stick, NOT 3.0

 

4. I haven't confirmed this, but apparently the on-board micro-computer can perform this operation WITHOUT a CPU chip or RAM in the mobo!

 

5. The last time I did this was before you bought your computer! So I can't recall how you know when the FLASH is complete... It is so low-level that there is no screen or anything, it probably just BEEPS...

 

 

 

Ok a few things...

 

1.  Motherboard is actually z87-plus.  I apparently got this mixed up with another PC.  Explains why the manual didn't mention Flashback or why I didn't see some of the features on the board mentioned in the manual 😬.  I also didn't see the bios flash button on the motherboard till this morning - somehow kept missing it. I blame the power cable (but likely due to my frustration)

2.  I wasn't seeing a way to flash the bios without going into the bios but with Flashback i was able to without having to power on the PC

3.  That seemed to work!!  Or it's a fluke and it decided to let me boot up again.  I will never know this for sure till I need to shut down the PC again.  Hopefully that next time will be when I upgrade

 

9 hours ago, Mindovermaster said:

Well, and, if you get the K version, you really should overclock it. It's meant for it...

 

9 hours ago, DevTech said:

The destiny of "K" CPUs --> Born To Be Wild!

 

Yes yes I know guys :P.  I bought the CPU thinking I would one day but I never needed to. I don't really want to spend any time messing around with overclocking if I don't feel like there is a need.

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40 minutes ago, AndyD said:

Ok a few things...

 

1.  Motherboard is actually z87-plus.  I apparently got this mixed up with another PC.  Explains why the manual didn't mention Flashback or why I didn't see some of the features on the board mentioned in the manual 😬.  I also didn't see the bios flash button on the motherboard till this morning - somehow kept missing it. I blame the power cable (but likely due to my frustration)

2.  I wasn't seeing a way to flash the bios without going into the bios but with Flashback i was able to without having to power on the PC

3.  That seemed to work!!  Or it's a fluke and it decided to let me boot up again.  I will never know this for sure till I need to shut down the PC again.  Hopefully that next time will be when I upgrade

 

 

Yes yes I know guys :P.  I bought the CPU thinking I would one day but I never needed to. I don't really want to spend any time messing around with overclocking if I don't feel like there is a need.

1. go into BIOS and select "Load Optimized Defaults" which will have the effect of making sure every possible CMOS RAM data area is updated to clear corruption.

 

2. Then do the tedious but useful examination of all the important settings to the way you want them and save them.

 

3. Some important settings to check:

 

- turn OFF the AUTO setting for main CPU/RAM settings - the BIOS tries to be too smart these days and will do dynamic overclocking along with dynamic overvolting by default in many mobos - more of a problem in newer mobos.

- CPU Virt on (I know you do that, but Load Optimized will reset it)

- various power state settings can be backed off the "full Intel" if you have sleep/hyber issues which was a problem for that generation of Intel tech

- In the CPU menu, turn Load Line Calibration to MAX - this uses a tiny bit more power but increases stability and I do it for ALL motherboards if they are premium enough to have the setting.

- in the same menu area it might have an option for phases or stages of regulator chips - turn it to the max number available to ensure full current to the CPU at the cost of minor power increase

- if you have all the DRAM sockets populated, it is a good idea to overvolt the DRAM slightly and slow down RAM timings slightly. From the 2000's onward mobo makers have been too aggressive and assume only 2 of 4 slots will typically be populated.

 

4. double check that you have a fan present and still spinning to push air (preferrably cool outside air) directly onto the motherboard near the CPU.  A small additional cost to water cooling that many forget, since CPU air coolers did that by default. There is a ton of high pwer voltage regulators surrounding the CPU that need active cooling to perform at full capacity. 12 Volts from the PSU being converted to 1 volt for the CPU at 40 or more AMPS!

 

 

----------------------------

 

On overclock, as your experience shows, anyone that desperately NEEDS more CPU power just does an upgrade. Doing a moderately useful overclock that is 100% reliable, is just a deeply satisfying tech enthusiast side activity. If it is no fun, then there is no point to it. You learn a lot of useful tech things, but the human brain does not learn well if something isn't fun and since we can't learn everything, the limited resources of our brains are most efficient if we stick to fun stuff to light up those neurons!

 

 

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With a successful outcome, my thoughts stray to the root cause which is unclear.

 

BIOS corruption is usually related to some sort of power fluctuation or voltage spike:

 

1. make sure the spike protector on your power bar has not triggered - it dies to protect you and on a good bar, there is a LED indicator when that happens. Bar needs to be replaced in that case.

 

2. Make sure grounded stuff is grounded and you will know if your building is old enough to have ground fault issues. There are cheap testers for that. 

 

3. Despite best intentions, local lightening storms and sometimes industrial repair equipment can spike through...

 

4. Make sure all family members know to not plug vacuum cleaners and other electrical appliances into the same wall outlet as the PC. Depending on house wiring quality that rule may need to apply to the entire circuit breaker run the PC is on.

 

5. Since the original issue seemed to be gaming related, you could have had some sort of internal power fluctuation, related to Load Line Calibration or more likely an overload on the PCIe bus:

 

Some GPUs have a BIOS you can access and some GPUs have actual BIOS/Firmware updates and either though setting or update you want to reduce the power draw on the PCIe bus to balance more to the external connectors direct from the PSU to the GPU. Even though something like a 1080 requires the external connectors, the PCIe bus power can still be set to draw too much which is just really bad design thinking IMO.

 

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9 hours ago, DevTech said:

1. go into BIOS and select "Load Optimized Defaults" which will have the effect of making sure every possible CMOS RAM data area is updated to clear corruption.

 

2. Then do the tedious but useful examination of all the important settings to the way you want them and save them.

 

3. Some important settings to check:

 

- turn OFF the AUTO setting for main CPU/RAM settings - the BIOS tries to be too smart these days and will do dynamic overclocking along with dynamic overvolting by default in many mobos - more of a problem in newer mobos.

- CPU Virt on (I know you do that, but Load Optimized will reset it)

- various power state settings can be backed off the "full Intel" if you have sleep/hyber issues which was a problem for that generation of Intel tech

- In the CPU menu, turn Load Line Calibration to MAX - this uses a tiny bit more power but increases stability and I do it for ALL motherboards if they are premium enough to have the setting.

- in the same menu area it might have an option for phases or stages of regulator chips - turn it to the max number available to ensure full current to the CPU at the cost of minor power increase

- if you have all the DRAM sockets populated, it is a good idea to overvolt the DRAM slightly and slow down RAM timings slightly. From the 2000's onward mobo makers have been too aggressive and assume only 2 of 4 slots will typically be populated.

 

4. double check that you have a fan present and still spinning to push air (preferrably cool outside air) directly onto the motherboard near the CPU.  A small additional cost to water cooling that many forget, since CPU air coolers did that by default. There is a ton of high pwer voltage regulators surrounding the CPU that need active cooling to perform at full capacity. 12 Volts from the PSU being converted to 1 volt for the CPU at 40 or more AMPS!

 

 

----------------------------

 

On overclock, as your experience shows, anyone that desperately NEEDS more CPU power just does an upgrade. Doing a moderately useful overclock that is 100% reliable, is just a deeply satisfying tech enthusiast side activity. If it is no fun, then there is no point to it. You learn a lot of useful tech things, but the human brain does not learn well if something isn't fun and since we can't learn everything, the limited resources of our brains are most efficient if we stick to fun stuff to light up those neurons!

 

 

This is all good stuff but probably not something I'll look into when I'm building a new pc. I'm very much afraid of the pc shutting down again and running into the same issue. Given the other issues I've run into I keep thinking the motherboard is on its way out.  I need it to last till at least this summer hah

 

8 hours ago, DevTech said:

With a successful outcome, my thoughts stray to the root cause which is unclear.

 

BIOS corruption is usually related to some sort of power fluctuation or voltage spike:

 

1. make sure the spike protector on your power bar has not triggered - it dies to protect you and on a good bar, there is a LED indicator when that happens. Bar needs to be replaced in that case.

 

2. Make sure grounded stuff is grounded and you will know if your building is old enough to have ground fault issues. There are cheap testers for that. 

 

3. Despite best intentions, local lightening storms and sometimes industrial repair equipment can spike through...

 

4. Make sure all family members know to not plug vacuum cleaners and other electrical appliances into the same wall outlet as the PC. Depending on house wiring quality that rule may need to apply to the entire circuit breaker run the PC is on.

 

5. Since the original issue seemed to be gaming related, you could have had some sort of internal power fluctuation, related to Load Line Calibration or more likely an overload on the PCIe bus:

 

Some GPUs have a BIOS you can access and some GPUs have actual BIOS/Firmware updates and either though setting or update you want to reduce the power draw on the PCIe bus to balance more to the external connectors direct from the PSU to the GPU. Even though something like a 1080 requires the external connectors, the PCIe bus power can still be set to draw too much which is just really bad design thinking IMO.

 

I checked firmware for GPU but there hasn't been any since the issues with evga gpu heating issues.

 

I forced the shutdown because my gpu and cpu were not released after the crash even after 10 mins (and task manager would not respond after several tries). The corruption likely because of that?

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2 hours ago, AndyD said:

This is all good stuff but probably not something I'll look into when I'm building a new pc. I'm very much afraid of the pc shutting down again and running into the same issue. Given the other issues I've run into I keep thinking the motherboard is on its way out.  I need it to last till at least this summer hah

 

I checked firmware for GPU but there hasn't been any since the issues with evga gpu heating issues.

 

I forced the shutdown because my gpu and cpu were not released after the crash even after 10 mins (and task manager would not respond after several tries). The corruption likely because of that?

1. That is a quality motherboard well before end of life. I am typing this right now on an overclocked 4770K with 32 gigs of RAM which performs like a dream with a Samsung NVMe drive. Although I would like to upgrade to a Socket-3647 Dual CPU powerhouse with 700 gigs of RAM, that WANT has not translated yet into a NEED.

 

What I'm saying is take a leap of faith, init and setup up your BIOS properly and watch it reboot OK. We will be here to support you if any issues. I'll even write a resume for you to get a second temp job to get a new motherboard on the 1 in a million chance it messes up.

 

2. The BIOS settings I suggested for you will make your computer far more stable and increase the chances that it lives a longer and happier life. You have a great CPU, a great PSU and a great GPU so let's try to zero in on the root cause and get it all running 100%. The 4XXX CPUs had weird oddities which could lead one to think a lot of bad things about what is going on, but it can be set up just great and the solution path is through tweaking your BIOS settings.

 

3. A forced shutdown could corrupt the Windows config but extremely unlikely these days. Corruption of the BIOS is impossible without some sort of Green Alien Energy from a power surge or spike... 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 2/11/2019 at 10:20 PM, DevTech said:

1. That is a quality motherboard well before end of life. I am typing this right now on an overclocked 4770K with 32 gigs of RAM which performs like a dream with a Samsung NVMe drive. Although I would like to upgrade to a Socket-3647 Dual CPU powerhouse with 700 gigs of RAM, that WANT has not translated yet into a NEED.

 

What I'm saying is take a leap of faith, init and setup up your BIOS properly and watch it reboot OK. We will be here to support you if any issues. I'll even write a resume for you to get a second temp job to get a new motherboard on the 1 in a million chance it messes up.

Hah thanks!  I'll look into it this weekend

 
On 2/11/2019 at 10:20 PM, DevTech said:

2. The BIOS settings I suggested for you will make your computer far more stable and increase the chances that it lives a longer and happier life. You have a great CPU, a great PSU and a great GPU so let's try to zero in on the root cause and get it all running 100%. The 4XXX CPUs had weird oddities which could lead one to think a lot of bad things about what is going on, but it can be set up just great and the solution path is through tweaking your BIOS settings.

Alright. I honestly really bothered with BIOS settings outside of making sure timings were correct for RAM but I feel like that has gotten better as it seems to pick it up correctly

 

On 2/11/2019 at 10:20 PM, DevTech said:

3. A forced shutdown could corrupt the Windows config but extremely unlikely these days. Corruption of the BIOS is impossible without some sort of Green Alien Energy from a power surge or spike... 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, i thought it was weird as well. I can't think of anything that would have caused a power surge plus seems unlikely that it would occur at the same time I forced a shut down

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It's Also a good idea to put any PC on a good UPS. I have 2 of these. I have my TV on a UPS as well. This will not help a bad power supply, but it will help if you are experiencing any sudden loss of power or brownouts (Too little power)

 

81HVPCKYF8L._SL1500_ (Small).jpg

 

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B000QZ3UG0/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

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13 minutes ago, warwagon said:

It's Also a good idea to put any PC on a good UPS. I have 2 of these. I have my TV on a UPS as well. This will not help a bad power supply, but it will help if you are experiencing any sudden loss of power or brownouts (Too little power)

 

81HVPCKYF8L._SL1500_ (Small).jpg

 

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B000QZ3UG0/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I have one of those on my router/modem/switch. Saved me many times. :) 

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19 minutes ago, warwagon said:

It's Also a good idea to put any PC on a good UPS. I have 2 of these. I have my TV on a UPS as well. This will not help a bad power supply, but it will help if you are experiencing any sudden loss of power or brownouts (Too little power)

 

81HVPCKYF8L._SL1500_ (Small).jpg

 

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B000QZ3UG0/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

A UPS with voltage regulation and surge suppression is definitely the best option.

 

At bare minimum, use a quality surge protector that has an indicator that the protection is still functioning.  They do have a limited lifespan depending on how many times it has to "protect" the connected devices.  Think of the Joule rating as a countdown.  The remaining "Joules" decreases as it mitigates surges.  The indicator will at least give you peace of mind that it's functioning correctly.

 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B017VXT1E4/ref=twister_B07JDH5HSR?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

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