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sc302    1,712

Just takes doing it once or twice or in my case 2-3 times a week from 2002-2008. 

 

Windows 10 usb printer shared out. Couldn’t get another windows 10 computer to connect much less print. Gave up at the 60 minute mark...it is much more cost effective to get a network printer than try to share out that old usb printer for people to directly print to it, plus explaining that they have to keep the computer on so that other devices can print would go over like a fart in church.  

 

Having a domain controller would have easily allowed me to setup printing by simply sharing out the printer.  Not much reading necessary, just go into the server manager and choose to setup the domain.  If you can read screens you can successfully set it up.  The complicated part is when you click next without reading....if only I could get people to read.  Setting up other options is a bit more difficult, best practices sure more difficult yet....setting up a domain, read the screens.

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patseguin    1,281

OK since all of you have a pretty good idea of my business's needs, let me ask this. How important for my needs is RAID? I've never had a hard drive go bad in any of the servers I've ever owned. Could I maybe do a configuration of 2x 2TB or 4TB SAS hard drives in RAID 1 (or is it RAID 0?) so I have a single mirrored drive and then just make sure I back up daily?

 

I'm working on trying out a Lenovo build but it's so difficult in the storage configuration section.

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sc302    1,712

If you lose a drive, this isn’t uncommon, are you willing to lose everything up until your last successful backup.  

 

Are you willing to wait until you fully bring the system back up then restore info to to start working. 

 

Raid is there incase there is a drive failure so you don’t lose hours of productivity or hours of work. Raid 6 is the recommended raid level. Out of my many servers and sans I work with daily I would say about 1/3 has experienced at least 1 drive failure, some multiple. 

 

Are you willing to gamble with a 33% chance that your system may experience a drive failure causing loss of business?  Is it worth that extra 500-800 to have a contingency to keep your system up if one does fail?  If you aren’t up for a week, what is your potential loss of work, how far does that push back projects esp if you had a backup failure the night before and lost all of yesterday’s work due to the drive failing 1 minute before the backup takes place?

 

only you can answer if you are willing to gamble that, if it were me I would spend the extra...no small business I have ever done work for could sustain that type of loss. 

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DevTech    1,517
1 hour ago, patseguin said:

OK since all of you have a pretty good idea of my business's needs, let me ask this. How important for my needs is RAID? I've never had a hard drive go bad in any of the servers I've ever owned. Could I maybe do a configuration of 2x 2TB or 4TB SAS hard drives in RAID 1 (or is it RAID 0?) so I have a single mirrored drive and then just make sure I back up daily?

 

I'm working on trying out a Lenovo build but it's so difficult in the storage configuration section.

You are on the "small" side of "small business"

 

RAID-0 - NEVER

RAID-1 - probably ok, but make sure you know what to do with it

RAID-anything else you won't bother to learn it and it will be a pain, just avoid it

 

no RAID at all might also work if you store a spare hard drive in the case or nearby shelf and do Backblaze.com or equivilent more often than once a day which is the way these services work.

 

If drive fails, you slap in spare and restore, maybe an hour of downtime 

 

BUT really, over and over I suggest a Samsung 970 Pro 4 TB - so so unlikely to fail anyways... spare it or RAID-1 it...

 

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sc302    1,712

On raid whatever there is nothing to learn. On a good Raid card it auto rebuilds when you put in a new drive.  You would probably want to verify rebuild and may want to get support involved to help verify this but that is why you have support in a big box system.  If building yourself to keep cost down, you want to learn about what you are doing it may not do anything automatically. Even Raid 1 can be a chore due to lack of automatic capabilities (knowing to swap drives when drive 0 fails due to lack of automatic fail over, knowing to rebuild due to lack of automatic rebuild....that kind of stuff that I have had to do with crappy low budget/no budget “servers”)

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patseguin    1,281
42 minutes ago, DevTech said:

You are on the "small" side of "small business"

 

RAID-0 - NEVER

RAID-1 - probably ok, but make sure you know what to do with it

RAID-anything else you won't bother to learn it and it will be a pain, just avoid it

 

no RAID at all might also work if you store a spare hard drive in the case or nearby shelf and do Backblaze.com or equivilent more often than once a day which is the way these services work.

 

If drive fails, you slap in spare and restore, maybe an hour of downtime 

 

BUT really, over and over I suggest a Samsung 970 Pro 4 TB - so so unlikely to fail anyways... spare it or RAID-1 it...

 

SO I'd configure 2x 4TB 970's. I'd have 4TB usable space with a mirrored drive. Am I correct?

 

@sc302I get where you're coming from. How many drives are required for RAID 6? Do you agree with Devtech on going with maybe 2 SSD's in RAID1 since they will have an extremely low failure rate?

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DevTech    1,517
18 minutes ago, patseguin said:

SO I'd configure 2x 4TB 970's. I'd have 4TB usable space with a mirrored drive. Am I correct?

 

@sc302I get where you're coming from. How many drives are required for RAID 6? Do you agree with Devtech on going with maybe 2 SSD's in RAID1 since they will have an extremely low failure rate?

So don't forget that none of gets to sit down with you and do a full needs assessment.

 

We are at the other end of a long tunnel using our imagination for what things are like for you and have built up a mental model over the course of the thread...

 

So with RAID, I imagine you are in some little town outside of Buffalo on a sales call and you get a call from the office that there is this flashing red light on the RAID ARRAY (if you get one) - so what do you do next? you've never done it, so there is a panicked search for the manual, maybe it gets found, maybe an employee pulls out the wrong drive etc - you do embroidery, so I.T. has to be no more complicated than the PCs you use every day

 

That's my take... Far easier to pull up a Backblaze web interface (or similar product) and restore a few hours of lost data. You could even have coverage on every client PC as well...

 

EDIT: also never forget RAID does not protect from data damage like DEL *.* - that damage is faithfully mirrored!

 

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sc302    1,712

Raid 6 is 4 drives.  

 

I wont disagree but not sure.   I have a 970 in my computer at home which essentially runs 24x7 but I am not running a database on it or having that many transactions on it or having multiple users accessing it at any given time.  I am skeptical of a 970 being the right solution, I can not say it is wrong or right.  I will say I am not 100% on board with that.  It is consumer grade, Samsung does make enterprise grade at a higher cost.  

 

Ssd has been around for a while and while I think everything and everyone should have it, I think it depends.  Spinning drives have a much higher failure rate, but I have heard people with large transactions (graphic design/cad) prematurely killing ssd drives due to the amount of read writes these programs do.   Which brings me to I am uncertain. 

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DevTech    1,517
15 minutes ago, sc302 said:

Raid 6 is 4 drives.  

 

I wont disagree but not sure.   I have a 970 in my computer at home which essentially runs 24x7 but I am not running a database on it or having that many transactions on it or having multiple users accessing it at any given time.  I am skeptical of a 970 being the right solution, I can not say it is wrong or right.  I will say I am not 100% on board with that.  It is consumer grade, Samsung does make enterprise grade at a higher cost.  

 

Ssd has been around for a while and while I think everything and everyone should have it, I think it depends.  Spinning drives have a much higher failure rate, but I have heard people with large transactions (graphic design/cad) prematurely killing ssd drives due to the amount of read writes these programs do.   Which brings me to I am uncertain. 

It is the writes that kill.

 

I have done it with huge C++ compiles.

 

But the Samsung 970 Pro is designed for heavy write loads ("Pro" = write focus) and uses long lasting 3D NAND Flash that is better than Intel/Microm Flash

 

The only way to get more longevity is to go with more spare cells or Enterprise SLC Flash. The Samsung has a few gigs of SLC as a chache on board but a whole drive of SLC is not affordable by anyone here!

 

You could buy a 4TB, provision at 3TB and it would last FOREVER (i.e. until computer is obsolete in 15 years)

 

The fantastic IOPS and Q-Depth on the Samsung make it just as good as enterprise for multi-user and DB loads that would FAR EXCEED an embroidery shop using FileMaker!

 

EDIT: it will probably still last 4 years at 4TB without the over=provision since is comes with spare cells of course that are sized for anticipated usage model, which fro the Pro is write-heavy

 

EDIT: consumer stuff often does not  have the high temp rating for high-density rack mounting "blades"

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goatsniffer    56

IDK, the shop has 5 whole people and does embroidery. If he's not already thinking quantum architecture he might as well be painting with feces on a cave wall waiting for the dinosaurs to go to sleep so he can go out foraging. You guys are talking about Hypervisors, but you should be thinking Ludicrousvisors which are much faster depending on the size of your helmet.

 

Seriously, this thread got out of control halfway through the first page. Peen measuring more than helpful information.

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DevTech    1,517
3 minutes ago, goatsniffer said:

IDK, the shop has 5 whole people and does embroidery. If he's not already thinking quantum architecture he might as well be painting with feces on a cave wall waiting for the dinosaurs to go to sleep so he can go out foraging. You guys are talking about Hypervisors, but you should be thinking Ludicrousvisors which are much faster depending on the size of your helmet.

 

Seriously, this thread got out of control halfway through the first page. Peen measuring more than helpful information.

If you want to make such a comment, that's your choice but maybe it would make sense to read the whole thing first before engaging comment?

 

It had a lot of standard Enterprise advice at the start because it looked like an Enterprise config.

 

Then the thread adapted to focus down on a small embroidery shop and just how much home-savvy vs business support is needed.

 

Along the way it was a FUN ride and very active and the OP got lots of material to ponder on - all a GOOD THING (tm)

 

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DevTech    1,517

I just got back from a computer conference on processing of data.

 

Unlike previous years where there was a debate on the merits of cloud vs on-premise, the tipping point appears to finally have happened.

 

But what a nice experience to see people working hard to push an industry forward. What a contrast to some of the pettiness seen in this thread and elsewhere...

 

Circaflex: you need to get out of the basement for a while. How anyone enjoys being a TROLL beats me, but your Trolling is just juvenile.

 

Goatsniffer: you need to contribute something to help patseguin like the many people in this thread. His search for an ideal config is ongoing and if he wants to second-guess every last detail of a significant expenditure, there is nothing odd about that. People volunteer their time to help others and the person being helped can pack and choose ideas  that THEY decide are useful to them. Try making one yourself, before denigrating the work of many people.

 

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patseguin    1,281

I tried doing another Dell build and it told me something about needing iDRAC Server Manager. That wasn't even listed as an option so I had to abandon it. I'm now trying Lenovo and it's even more complicated. I wonder if maybe I need to get on the phone with Dell and talk to someone about a config. I just fear they are going to unnecessarily beef up the system to make money. I'm kind of thinking now about getting a low end Xeon processor and 4x 4TB SAS hard drives in RAID 6. Then I'll keep a daily backup on an external drive and then find a good cloud backup solution and back up to cloud weekly, or even nightly assuming the backups are differential.

 

On a side note, Shopworks offers cloud servers. They price it at like $300/month. I suppose that's not bad if I was going to lease a new server for that much anyways. I'm just not sure our internet is good enough for all the workstations to connect to a cloud server and access the databases that way.

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sc302    1,712

I will build a low budget dell server for you and send you the specs.   I won’t go ssd for os drives and will keep it under 5k. Will go for the enterprise drac, you will need to hook that card up to your network and give it a static IP (outside of your dhcp scope) 

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patseguin    1,281
14 minutes ago, sc302 said:

I will build a low budget dell server for you and send you the specs.   I won’t go ssd for os drives and will keep it under 5k. Will go for the enterprise drac, you will need to hook that card up to your network and give it a static IP (outside of your dhcp scope) 

What do you and everyone else think about Lenovo? Here's a config I just did:

 

Base

ThinkSystem ST250 3.5" Chassis Base

1

Processors

Intel Xeon E-2104G 4+2C 65W 3.2GHz Processor

1

Memory

ThinkSystem 16GB TruDDR4 2666MHz (2Rx8, 1.2V) UDIMM

1

Storage

ThinkSystem ST250 4x3.5" SATA/SAS Backplane

1

Select Storage devices - configured RAID

1

ThinkSystem RAID 930-8i 2GB Flash PCIe 12Gb Adapter

1

Primary Array - RAID 6

1

ThinkSystem 3.5" 4TB 7.2K SAS 12Gb Hot Swap 512n HDD

4

ThinkSystem M.2 5100 480GB SATA 6Gbps Non-Hot Swap SSD

1

Optical Drive

ThinkSystem External USB DVD-RW Optical Disk Drive

1

Power

ThinkSystem ST250 250W Fixed PSU

1

2.8m, 10A/120V, C13 to NEMA 5-15P (US) Line Cord

1

Others

ThinkSystem ST250 Motherboard

1

Feature Enable TPM 1.2

1

OS & Software

Windows Server 2019 Essentials - MultiLang (not preinstalled)

1

Microsoft Windows Server 2019 Client Access License (10 User)

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sc302    1,712

Lenovo is good.  Confusing to build.  A little more expensive then dell. Support is a bit worse than dell. 

 

 

Did you call a dell rep, do you have one?   Did you work out specs with them?  Tell them what your needs are?   Did you call a var and have them help you out with a few different server builds?  I can put you in touch with some of mine, there is also a var or two on reddit.com/r/sysadmin who view the weekly am I getting **** topic who would help you out.  

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patseguin    1,281
4 minutes ago, sc302 said:

Lenovo is good.  Confusing to build.  A little more expensive then dell. Support is a bit worse than dell. 

 

 

Did you call a dell rep, do you have one?   Did you work out specs with them?  Tell them what your needs are?   Did you call a var and have them help you out with a few different server builds?  I can put you in touch with some of mine, there is also a var or two on reddit.com/r/sysadmin who view the weekly am I getting **** topic who would help you out.  

Yeah I just wanted to see how they compare to Dell. I already have a Dell small business credit line so I'll likely be using them still.

 

I didn't call anyone at Dell yet. I am curious so see what configuration you put together. Don't feel like you have to though.

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sc302    1,712

It will be some time before I get to a desktop but I don’t think you are in a rush. 

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sc302    1,712

As you know you never pay the price on the dell site when dealing with a rep, could be another thousand or more off. 

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patseguin    1,281
7 minutes ago, sc302 said:

It will be some time before I get to a desktop but I don’t think you are in a rush. 

Also, does Windows Server Essentials sound appropriate for me as opposed to Server Standard?

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patseguin    1,281

OK I'm getting pretty tired of thinking about this. Dell for whatever reason doesn't offer RAID6 as an option. Here's what I came up with this morning:

 

PowerEdge T340

PowerEdge T340 Server

Trusted Platform Module (TPM)

Trusted Platform Module 2.0

Chassis Configuration

3.5" Chassis up to 8 Hot Plug Hard Drives

SHIPPING

PowerEdge T340 Shipping

Processor

Intel® Xeon® E-2124 3.3GHz, 8M cache, 4C/4T, turbo (71W)

Processor Thermal Configuration

Standard Heatsink for PE T340

Memory DIMM Type and Speed

2666MT/s UDIMMs

Memory Configuration Type

Performance Optimized

Memory Capacity

16GB 2666MT/s DDR4 ECC UDIMM

RAID Configuration

C4, RAID 5 for 3 or more HDDs or SSDs (Matching Type/Speed/Capacity)

RAID/Internal Storage Controllers

PERC H330 RAID Controller, Adapter, Full Height

Hard Drives

(3) 4TB 7.2K RPM SATA 6Gbps 512n 3.5in Hot-plug Hard Drive

Additional Network Cards

On-Board Broadcom 5720 Dual Port 1Gb LOM

Embedded Systems Management

iDRAC9,Enterprise

Internal Optical Drive

DVD +/-RW, SATA, Internal

Rack Rails

No Rack Rails, No Cable Management Arm, No Casters

Bezel

No Bezel

BIOS and Advanced System Configuration Settings

Performance BIOS Setting

Power Cords

(2) 2X NEMA 5-15P to C13 Wall Plug, 125 Volt, 15 AMP, 10 Feet (3m), Power Cord, North America

Power Supply

Dual, Hot-plug, Redundant Power Supply 1+1, 495W

System Documentation

No Systems Documentation, No OpenManage DVD Kit

Operating System

Windows Server® 2019 Essentials,FI,No Med, No CAL, Multi Language

OS Media Kits

Windows Server® 2019 Essentials,Media Kit, Multi Language

Licenses

Bring Your Own VSAN Licenses

Client Access Licenses

10-pack of Windows Server 2019/2016 User CALs (Standard or Datacenter)

Advanced System Configurations

UEFI BIOS Boot Mode with GPT Partition

Shipping Information

US No Canada Ship Charge

Motherboard

PowerEdge T340 Motherboard

Shipping Material

PowerEdge T340 Ship Material

Group Manager

iDRAC Group Manager, Disabled

Password

iDRAC,Factory Generated Password

Dell Services: Hardware Support

Basic Next Business Day 12Months, 12 Month(s)

Deployment Services

No Installation

iDRAC Service Module

iDRAC Server Manager Enabled

Edit quantity
in Cart

$5,814.10

Save 37% on select PowerEdge T340 Tower Server through Dell Small Business.Details

Questions? Our Small Business Technology Advisors can help. Click to ChatDetails

No interest if paid in full within 90 days on qualifying XPS systems $699+^Details

- $2,151.78

Item Total:

$3,662.32

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DevTech    1,517

In 2019, it is plain nuts NOT to be using SSD unless you have enormous data requirements which you don't.

 

FileMaker on SSD is the only improvement you would actually notice on this upgrade for all the expense involved.

 

And frankly, the current jump in performance of NVMe over SATA SSD makes that yet ANOTHER Generational Quantum Jump.

 

Buy a new server in 2019, and be TWO generations behind right at the start?

 

(That qualifies you to get a job in the Enterprise I.T. field :) )

 

EDIT: Sigh, moan, groan... I will try and navigate the Dell server config to see if they are hiding engineering talent in some dusty corner...

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sc302    1,712

It isn’t nuts.  It is small business.  Big box takes a bit to catch up esp on their small business side. This isn’t data center or build your own white box.  Every big box/mass quantity manufacturer is on the same page.  The only one that might not be is Apple, but I don’t think they buy in the quantity as the big box players.  I don’t think you understand small business even a little bit. 

 

Fwiw I went from spinning disk to flash for a heavy back end database and I saw 0.00% gain in regards to speed.  I have 8gb fiber channel and I am using roughly 50Mb/s at any given time.  I didn’t need flash for speed. I got flash because it wasn’t that much more in my Sans and spinning disk has too many moving parts which eat away at power as well as the previous rack space. 

 

A single tower server for a small business it doesn’t matter. Ssd isn’t going to help as much as you think outside of launching apps faster and booting faster.  It is a always up server, fast boot isn’t a need neither is launching apps.  Business continuity is a need, focus more on that and less on cutting edge tech.  Maybe the high end rack servers will have what you are looking for, but that isn’t what he is looking at which is essentially a desktop with some redundancies at common points of failure. 

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DevTech    1,517
8 minutes ago, sc302 said:

It isn’t nuts.  It is small business.  Big box takes a bit to catch up esp on their small business side. This isn’t data center or build your own white box.  Every big box/mass quantity manufacturer is on the same page.  The only one that might but be is Apple, but I don’t think they buy in the quantity as the big box players.  I don’t think you understand small business even a little bit. 

 

Fwiw I went from spinning disk to flash for a heavy back end database and I saw 0.00% gain in regards to speed.  I have 8gb finer channel and I am using roughly 50Mb/s at any given time.  I didn’t need flash for speed. I got flash because it wasn’t that much more in my Sans and spinning disk has too many moving parts which eat away at power as well as the previous rack space. 

 

A single tower server for a small business it doesn’t matter. Ssd isn’t going to help as much as you think.  

What I understand is the concept of finding the maximum value for patseguin.

 

In that quest, I have zero interest in accepting any lazyness on the part of suppliers just because they like to traditionally gouge their customers knowing full well that most of them are not knowledgeable.

 

Again, that "Needs Assessment" that none of us get to do. A SSD will provide far less speed up if a DB is mostly reads. SSD shines brightly in write-heavy DB loads.

 

Still, in 2019, it's not my desire to help a supplier make more profit by looking at "good enough" - for a consumer of a product, business or otherwise, the most value for hard earned dollars should be the objective. At least that is where I am coming from. That is my BIAS here.

 

 

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DevTech    1,517

Dell Config DevTech-1

 

$2,419

 

  • 2 TB NVMe for everything (really think RAID is just not needed for this tech)
  • 2 TB single spinner for local backup
  • Windows Pro - needs SBS etc server upgrade via Dell Rep
  • Additional NVMe can be added via expansion ports and adapter card
  • Lowest video that could be selected was 1050 ti - Dell rep could probably downgrade that

 

https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/pdr/xps-8930-desktop/cto8930w10ph150s?selectionState=eyJPQyI6ImN0bzg5MzB3MTBwaDE1MHMiLCJNb2RzIjpbeyJJZCI6MywiT3B0cyI6W3siSWQiOiIzMkdCIn1dfSx7IklkIjo4LCJPcHRzIjpbeyJJZCI6IkdWVDk2S08ifV19LHsiSWQiOjY2NiwiT3B0cyI6W3siSWQiOiJHMEJGSkcxIn1dfV19&cartItemId=

 

XPS Tower Special Edition

 

Note: Dell supports their XPS line as BOTH a consumer and business product.

 

 

 

  • Intel® Core™ i7-9700[9th Gen Processor Intel® Turbo Boost Technology 8-Core/8-Thread 12M Cache]
  • Windows 10 Pro 64-bit English
  • 32GB DDR4 at 2666MHz; up to 64GB (Additional memory sold separately)
  • 2TB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD (Boot) + 2TB 7200RPM 3.5" SATA HDD (Storage)
  • NVIDIA® GeForce® GTX 1050 Ti 4GB GDDR5
  • Tray Load DVD-RW Drive (Reads and Writes to DVD/CD)
  • 802.11ac + Bluetooth 4.2, Dual Band 2.4&5 GHz, 1x1
  • Thunderbolt 3 PCIe Network and IO Card
  • 1 Year Hardware Service with Onsite

 

xps-tower-8930-cfl-se-pdp-1613-mod3.thumb.jpg.4c7c3c7a89897704057c73ec04db6c40.jpg

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