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A man who traveled from Norway to Florida to surprise his father-in-law was accidentally shot dead

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adrynalyne    12,629
7 minutes ago, Nick H. said:

I can't believe I'm writing this, but I agree with the others on this situation. As I mentioned earlier, with a penchant to own a gun in a country where you are allowed why would it not be the first thing you go for if you feel in danger? I'd probably go for a baseball bat myself but have the gun close-by if I owned one. The fault was the son-in-law's. He knew where he was flying to, he knew the risks of gun ownership and he should have realized that the combination of his actions was going to have dangerous consequences.

The father-in-law will blame himself for what happened and he will have to live with it for the rest of his life. But from the information in the article I feel sorry for him.

Agreement or disagreement isn’t really relevant here. This is a large part of the problem with gun ownership in the US. Situational awareness and appropriate response is not something a lot of people know or understand. You can’t just go around shooting people who startle you. It’s not legal, and it isn’t right. This should have gone to court to be dealt with there. Guilt isn’t an appropriate punishment for poor judgement. We all have to be held responsible for our actions. Let’s turn this on it’s side for a moment. Would you feel the same if the one who got shot was a 4 year old? People should not just get to die for lapse in judgement. A 4 year old wouldn’t know any better. 
 

As an aside, I carry. 15+1 in the chamber. Not once have I resorted to reaching for my waste in response to being startled. Only one person at work even knows I am armed. Of course I also don’t get startled in public because situational awareness. 
 

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adrynalyne    12,629
14 minutes ago, Human.Online said:

I'm not a gun owner

I'm not really a gun defender

I personally believe there are some major flaws in America's gun system that need addressing

I personally believe there are some major flaws in America's gun culture that need addressing

 

BUT

 

This guy had his cage rattled once.

Then it happened again.

Then a guy jumped out of the bushes at him on his property.

 

Anyone would react.  Your reaction may differ from mine.  Mine would certainly involve a weapon (I carry a baseball bat when needed because hey it's the UK, what you gonna do).  People's reactions and weapons differ from place to place and culture to culture.

 

Did he physically react out of panic?  Quite probably.  But that's a valid reaction!

 

Sorry, I have sympathy for the shooter, not the guy who jumped out of the bushes.

I get it, he was startled and reacted. However he still needs to be held responsible for his actions. Legally. The law doesn’t recognize guilty feelings as a appropriate consequence to much of anything. 

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Nick H.    10,113
3 minutes ago, adrynalyne said:

Would you feel the same if the one who got shot was a 4 year old? People should not just get to die for lapse in judgement. A 4 year old wouldn’t know any better. 

If the 4 year old pounded on the front door, got scared off and then thought it would be a good idea to return later at night and bang on the back door I would have to talk with the parents.

 

I agree that he should go through the proper process and be held accountable. I'm just saying that an admission of guilt and the remorse he surely feels for the situation should be taken in to account when the sentence (should) be given. I'm saddened by the lack of restraint when it comes to gun ownership in the U.S. but if they are going to be lax with their laws then the country is going to suffer these types of situations.

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techbeck    6,968
33 minutes ago, adrynalyne said:

Please show me where in the statute that shows stand your ground applies here with DEADLY force. 
 

Only 1b authorizes deadly force. Which goes back to what I said earlier—charges should have been filed and this should have gone to court to be proven a legal shooting. 
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

Deadly force if he or she reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony.

 

 

A suspicious person...and intruder...was scared away previously from the FIL property.  Then later at night, when it was dark and at the back door of the house, it happened again.  So it is reasonable to believe the guy was on edge and thought someone was out to get him.   And when someone jumps out infront of someone else, especially in the dark/low light, you have little time to react and asses the situation. 

 

Again, sucks and I bet the FIL feels really bad...but kind of stupid on the guys part considering he was scared away a few hours earlier.  That should have been sign enough to not try it again.

 

 

But anyway, not going to argue to death.  My opinion on the situation,

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adrynalyne    12,629
8 minutes ago, techbeck said:

Deadly force if he or she reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony.

 

 

A suspicious person...and intruder...was scared away previously from the FIL property.  Then later at night, when it was dark and at the back door of the house, it happened again.  So it is reasonable to believe the guy was on edge and thought someone was out to get him.   And when someone jumps out infront of someone else, especially in the dark/low light, you have little time to react and asses the situation. 

 

Again, sucks and I bet the FIL feels really bad...but kind of stupid on the guys part considering he was scared away a few hours earlier.  That should have been sign enough to not try it again.

You are just showing how gray an area this law is and how it should have gone to court. He didn’t even see the person long enough to know who he was. How did he identify death or great harm was imminent? No, sorry, he flat out panicked. If you cannot assess the situation, then situational awareness failed as it often does for inexperienced and unqualified gun owners. If you are going to wield deadly force, you should be responsible enough to train on how and when to use appropriately. That is a responsibility all gun owners should accept. Unfortunately....it doesn’t always happen. 

9 minutes ago, Nick H. said:

If the 4 year old pounded on the front door, got scared off and then thought it would be a good idea to return later at night and bang on the back door I would have to talk with the parents.

 

I agree that he should go through the proper process and be held accountable. I'm just saying that an admission of guilt and the remorse he surely feels for the situation should be taken in to account when the sentence (should) be given. I'm saddened by the lack of restraint when it comes to gun ownership in the U.S. but if they are going to be lax with their laws then the country is going to suffer these types of situations.

The law isn’t as lax as it appears here. The law enforcement on the other hand...

Edited by adrynalyne

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techbeck    6,968
8 minutes ago, adrynalyne said:

You are just showing how gray an area this law is and how it should have gone to court. He didn’t even see the person long enough to know who he was. How did he identify death or great harm was imminent? No, sorry, he flat out panicked. 

Situation where he had little time to react/asses the situation.  The guy jumped right out in front of him.  He could have waited and HOPED it was nothing, or acted.   And considering this happened before and again at night when most crimes happen, he chose to act first.  Fault him if you want, but the Norway guy was at just as much fault as the FIL.

 

Anyway, my point has been made. 

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adrynalyne    12,629
Just now, techbeck said:

Situation where he had little time to react/asses the situation.  The guy jumped right out in front of him.  He could have waited and HOPED it was nothing, or acted.   And considering this happened before and again at night when most crimes happen, he chose to act first.  Fault him if you want, but the Norway guy was at just as much fault as the FIL.

Would you feel the same if it was a four year old? There is a reason situational awareness is so important. 

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techbeck    6,968
1 minute ago, adrynalyne said:

Would you feel the same if it was a four year old? There is a reason situational awareness is so important. 

Silly argument.  It is a lot easier to asses the threat of a 4 year old than it is a grown man.  Considering you can tell by the height and build of a 4yr old easy over a grown human.

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adrynalyne    12,629
5 minutes ago, techbeck said:

Silly argument.  It is a lot easier to asses the threat of a 4 year old than it is a grown man.  Considering you can tell by the height and build of a 4yr old easy over a grown human.

 

if there is no time to assess the threat, age doesn’t matter. 


If he had time to tell the height, he had time to assess the threat. Are you telling me that height and build plays a factor in whether you live or die? 

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techbeck    6,968
2 minutes ago, adrynalyne said:

if there is no time to assess the threat, age doesn’t matter. 


If he had time to tell the height, he had time to assess the threat. Are you telling me that height plays a factor in whether you live or die? 

Look, I am sure there are some scenarios where I would agree with you.  But I am talking about this case and this case alone.  And from what I read, and IMO, the FIL did not do anything wrong.  Cannot put in what ifs in this case to prove your point and try to convince others to agree with you.  Each situation is different and has to be evaluated as such.

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DramaInc    180

Lol America...where accidentally shooting and killing family is 'acceptable risk'.  And President Bone Spurs has the nerves to call other countres ****hole countries.  Look in the mirror bud.  

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adrynalyne    12,629
Just now, DramaInc said:

Lol America...where accidentally shooting and killing family is 'acceptable risk'.  

American here. I’m pointing out it’s not. 
 

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techbeck    6,968
3 minutes ago, DramaInc said:

Lol America...where accidentally shooting and killing family is 'acceptable risk'.  And President Bone Spurs has the nerves to call other countres ****hole countries.  Look in the mirror bud.  

Guy did not know it was a family member.  Thought it was an intruder.  So you either did not read the OP or understand it.  If the guy know who he was, he would not have been shot.  And not really sure what this has to do with what the President says.

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DramaInc    180
3 minutes ago, techbeck said:

Guy did not know it was a family member.  Thought it was an intruder.  So you either did not read the OP or understand it.  If the guy know who he was, he would not have been shot.  And not really sure what this has to do with what the President says.

Or maybe, if Civilians weren't allowed to have guns the whole situation would have ended differently.  I read the article, you just missed the entire point and also proved mine. 

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Steven P.    14,391

Ah well, thanks to relaxed gun ownership laws and that stand your ground law, not only is the son-in-law now dead (instead of recovering from a black eye or broken jaw) the killer will have to live with what he did to his daughters husband.

Edited by Steven P.
techbeck pointed out incorrect use of murderer

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techbeck    6,968
1 minute ago, DramaInc said:

Or maybe, if Civilians weren't allowed to have guns the whole situation would have ended differently.  I read the article, you just missed the entire point and also proved mine. 

I am not going to go into a whole gun ownership/rights debate.  There is a whole thread on that.   You also did not make much of a point other than calling the US a ###### hole country and show you do not like the current President.  Adn then assuming it is acceptable in the US to shoot family members.  But to each their own.

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techbeck    6,968
6 minutes ago, Steven P. said:

Ah well, thanks to relaxed gun ownership laws and that stand your ground law, not only is the son-in-law now dead (instead of recovering from a black eye or broken jaw) the murderer will have to live with what he did to his daughters husband.

No, not murder.  That would have meant the killing was planned/thought out.   If brought up on a crime, most likely a form of manslaughter

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+warwagon    13,309
42 minutes ago, adrynalyne said:

 He didn’t even see the person long enough to know who he was. How did he identify death or great harm was imminent?

We really don't know how far away the guy was from him. If he was just a few feet, and if this personal actual meant him harm with a knife or a gun, by the time I determined if he knew the guy or not he would have probably been dead. 

 

Moral of the story, don't ump out of the dark and scare someone who has never met you in the back yard of their house.  You'll live longer.

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macoman    2,676
21 minutes ago, warwagon said:

Moral of the story, don't ump out of the dark and scare someone who has never met you in the back yard of their house.  You'll live longer.

You took the words out of my thoughts... exactly right... I don't know about how they do it in Norway but in America we have a violent culture for centuries.

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LaP    2,208
On 10/4/2019 at 3:21 PM, macoman said:

I don't want to sound like an ass**** but this should win a Darwin award for been so stupid the guy from Norway.

The dad is as stupid as far as i'm concerned. Outside of a paranoiac who the **** kills someone on sight without properly assessing the situation? Surprising someone you love is not new. It's been done for eternity. My friends did it to me once and no i did not shot them.

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DramaInc    180
2 minutes ago, LaP said:

The dad is as stupid as far as i'm concerned. Outside of a paranoiac who the **** kills someone on sight without properly assessing the situation? Surprising someone you love is not new. It's been done for eternity. My friends did it to me once and no i did not shot them.

In civilized countries you dont expect to be shot for trying to do something nice for people.  

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LaP    2,208
55 minutes ago, adrynalyne said:

if there is no time to assess the threat, age doesn’t matter. 


If he had time to tell the height, he had time to assess the threat. Are you telling me that height and build plays a factor in whether you live or die? 

It's not like the guy was 80 anyway. I could understand a very old almost disabled man. I mean you don't surprise someone who is 80 and not all there anymore. But the guy was 61 that's not very old in my book. You are still able to defend yourself at this age.

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+Zag L.    740

DramaInc, so in your country popping out of a bush at night in the dark, scaring people is something you consider as 'doing something nice'?  

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adrynalyne    12,629
20 minutes ago, LaP said:

The dad is as stupid as far as i'm concerned. Outside of a paranoiac who the **** kills someone on sight without properly assessing the situation? Surprising someone you love is not new. It's been done for eternity. My friends did it to me once and no i did not shot them.

Apparently he didn’t have time to assess the situation. 🙄🙄 

13 minutes ago, Zag L. said:

DramaInc, so in your country popping out of a bush at night in the dark, scaring people is something you consider as 'doing something nice'?  

Whether it is or isn’t, in what country is it considered acceptable to kill the person for doing it? Rhetorical question, the article answered me already. 

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adrynalyne    12,629
17 minutes ago, LaP said:

It's not like the guy was 80 anyway. I could understand a very old almost disabled man. I mean you don't surprise someone who is 80 and not all there anymore. But the guy was 61 that's not very old in my book. You are still able to defend yourself at this age.

Or at least be able to assess a threat. 
 

There are ages where you are no longer qualified to drive due to being incapable of making correct decisions and reactions. Sadly, nobody thought this should also apply to firearms. For some, the age is lower than others. It’s all about mental faculties being in proper working order. 

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