4K vs... well, 4K


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xMorpheousx416

Okay gurus... quick question here.

 

A fully loaded, 4K movie is going to push about 45 to 60MBps bit rate if not more. (video and audio combined)

 

So.. I ran a test. 

 

One fully loaded 4K movie vs. an encoded 4K movie at or near 10% of the total bit rate.

So... 56MBps vs. 5MBps.

 

My card for the HTPC seems to handle the encoded 4K movie without a hiccup. Needless to say, she coughs up a kidney when attempting to play the original file.

 

Now.. .my question is, for the theater PC.. what do I look for more. The core? The amount of memory? Or the card's memory bandwidth?

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Jim K

What are you running now?  Original file? What exactly is that....a RIP from something like makemkv?

 

Need some more details (hardware and software being used for playback)...pretty much any modern/basic setup should be able to play 4k RIPs without issue on local hardware.

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+Mud W1ggle
1 hour ago, xMorpheousx416 said:

Okay gurus... quick question here.

 

A fully loaded, 4K movie is going to push about 45 to 60MBps bit rate if not more. (video and audio combined)

 

So.. I ran a test. 

 

One fully loaded 4K movie vs. an encoded 4K movie at or near 10% of the total bit rate.

So... 56MBps vs. 5MBps.

 

My card for the HTPC seems to handle the encoded 4K movie without a hiccup. Needless to say, she coughs up a kidney when attempting to play the original file.

 

Now.. .my question is, for the theater PC.. what do I look for more. The core? The amount of memory? Or the card's memory bandwidth?

What do you mean by "card"?   NIC?  Video Card? 

 

If you are playing it remotely it might be network bandwidth causing you grief, esp if you are using wireless for your network.

 

If you are just playing it locally, then it might be disk bandwidth if using a mechanical disk, it could be CPU struggling to copy, you might be short of memory, so as Jim K said, more details are needed to give you some more targeted advice!

 

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xMorpheousx416

Thanks for the replies.

 

Okay.. to get to the guts of it all, right now my HTPC is running an FX8350 backed up by an MSI Geforce 750TI. Yes, it can play videos up to 4K resolution...but there's where the difference comes in from my original question.

 

If I rip a Bluray disk, either using MakeMKV or DVDFab, leaving it near lossless, the movies can easily weigh in near 60GB in size, but it's the video bit rate that causes that card to choke. I had no issues running a full 4K res movie (full meaning straight from the disk) on the same machine running my 1660 Super.

 

I have nearly 20TB of workable space, so I'm not worried about encoding movies... but I get that lossless itch and don't necessarily wish to encode them all. I mean, why have 4K hardware with nothing 4K to watch in all of it's glory? 
(Same thing I tell people when they ask me about 8K... I say, "don't bother.. your $1500 phone may record in 8K, but there's no 8K gaming, movies, TV shows.. etc yet")

 

So.. what it boils down to, for the video card pushing 4K content from the PC to the TV... what's better? If the GPU can handle it, do I need a card that has more VRAM, or memory bandwidth. (The card has 128bit memory, and I'm thinking it should be at least 192bit if not 256bit) 

 

Ya know.. when you see cards with 16GB of ram, but on a 128bit bus.. vs. an 8GB card on a 256bit bus. (for conversation sake)

 

Pictured example. On the left, Rogue One full disk rip /7.1 audio vs. the left side, The New Jedi encoded with x265 and 5.1 audio. Rogue chokes the card, Solo runs without a hiccup.

 

 

Untitled.jpg

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Jim K

Still a bit confused.

 

So ... your PC can play UHD Blu-ray straight from the drive without issue.  That is because the optical drive is doing all (or most) of the decoding/playback work.

When you encode the UHD Blu-ray down to a smaller size they play without issue.

Your only issue is playing the straight/haven't been encoded raw UHD Blu-ray rips?

 

What software are you using for playback?  When you are playing back ... is your CPU being pegged in Task Manager?  

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+InsaneNutter

I suspect with the raw 4K movie rip your either hitting the limits of what your CPU or GPU will decode, open up task manager to confirm which is at 100% usage.

 

If its the CPU then ensure hardware-accelerated decoding is enabled in VLC's settings, this will offload the decoding to your GPU and your should find CPU usage is very little when doing so:

 

image.png.6e64aeef7039ae7a0ed4ca420f4644be.png

 

I'm pretty sure when I was looking in to a new GPU for our HTPC a GeForce GT 1030 was the minimum that would output at 4K @ 60hz and hardware decode raw 4K rips.

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richardsim7

You want something with HEVC hardware decoding, which I don't believe the 750Ti has, hence your CPU is decoding it via software (and choking)

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farmeunit

Here is some information on HEVC.  I don't follow it that much as I don't transcode stuff like I used to:

https://www.howtogeek.com/342416/what-is-hevc-h.265-video-and-why-is-it-so-important-for-4k-movies/

 

I would agree with richardsim7.  Newer card should help.  I don't think VRAM bandwidth is really the problem with video, but I can't say for sure.  Not really and expert on it.  It's definitely important for gaming and textures, just not sure how it relates to video playback.  

 

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xMorpheousx416
7 hours ago, Jim K said:

Still a bit confused.

 

So ... your PC can play UHD Blu-ray straight from the drive without issue.  That is because the optical drive is doing all (or most) of the decoding/playback work.

When you encode the UHD Blu-ray down to a smaller size they play without issue.

Your only issue is playing the straight/haven't been encoded raw UHD Blu-ray rips?

 

What software are you using for playback?  When you are playing back ... is your CPU being pegged in Task Manager?  

Sorry about the confusion.

 

The FX8350 can play full 4K movies (no encoding down to a smaller size).. or straight from disk when I connected my Geforce 1660 Super video card. With the 750Ti, it chokes... can't handle the video. Audio is fine, but video just turns into a picture of chunks of black and white squares.

 

5 hours ago, InsaneNutter said:

I'm pretty sure when I was looking in to a new GPU for our HTPC a GeForce GT 1030 was the minimum that would output at 4K @ 60hz and hardware decode raw 4K rips.

 

4 hours ago, richardsim7 said:

You want something with HEVC hardware decoding, which I don't believe the 750Ti has, hence your CPU is decoding it via software (and choking)

Now.. I think we're getting somewhere. Just mentioning the catch between the 1660 Super working, and the 750Ti choking.. makes me believe that GPU just can't handle the amount of info being fed to it, for a full 4K experience.

Once encoded, all that media data is reduced down near 85% / 90%.. and highly compressed, which the 750Ti has no issue with. 

 

I'll check into where, or if.. there are any 1030's to 1050's around that aren't worth my weight in platinum.

 

Thanks for the assist folks.. it's appreciated.

 

 

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+InsaneNutter
3 hours ago, xMorpheousx416 said:

I'll check into where, or if.. there are any 1030's to 1050's around that aren't worth my weight in platinum.

Good luck, its a terrible time to be buying a GPU sadly.

 

Also not sure if you will ever desire to play 4K Netflix on your HTPC? however keep in mind if you do that Netflix has DRM requirements which require a Geforce 1000 series GPU to have 3gb VRAM minimum, which did pretty much rule out the 1030's (all of these seemed to have only 2gb of VRAM). Theirs other DRM requirements you needs to satisfy also, however that's another post in its self.

 

If you don't care about Netflix DRM though a 1030 should be perfectly fine, most of these are passively cooled also which is great for a HTPC.

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Steven P.

Ugh I have spent a looong time figuring these things out myself, but 4K playback from a home theater setup (like a NAS) there's a ton of other factors at play too.

 

Is your network capable of streaming the large files? (An Xbox One X network test on the same network can shed some light on this) and then your network mustn't be updating other equipment when the playback is going on.

 

You didn't say what media server software you are using or is it just DLNA? DLNA is limited with what codecs it can use and that varies per TV manufacturer I think

 

Mine is a Qnap NAS (Intel powered) Plex Server, with Nvidia Shield (2019) client, I can't find the thread right now but there is a long thread on Plex forums that has a lot of advice on 4K streaming and the tl;dr of it was to basically have a Nvidia Shield Pro client. Here is some additional info https://forums.plex.tv/t/why-are-most-of-my-4k-video-stream-buffering/401929/72 I can't find the other thread right now.

 

I personally have found that 4K UHD content is fine if I ensure the audio isn't EAC3 or TrueHD (convert to AC3) I use ffmpeg to do this, and again there are lots of tutorials online about how you can convert audio and keep all the channels, if you need me for that let me know and I'll be happy to help.

 

Edit: Network speeds https://www.reddit.com/r/PleX/comments/eoa03e/psa_100_mbps_is_not_enough_to_direct_play_4k/ 

Edit: I found the thread: https://forums.plex.tv/t/info-plex-4k-transcoding-and-you-aka-the-rules-of-4k/378203

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
xMorpheousx416
Posted (edited)

Okay.. so, after some time, I managed to find a GTX 1060 3G for just under $300. 

 

She works like a dream. I threw her in, installed the latest 465 series driver, and played the one movie the other card choked on the most. 

 

Played without issue.

 

You all nailed it on the head. Without true HEVC hardware support, raw unadulterated 4K data rates can kill a machine faster than malware. 😂

 

On 20/03/2021 at 05:01, Steven P. said:

You didn't say what media server software you are using or is it just DLNA? DLNA is limited with what codecs it can use and that varies per TV manufacturer I think

Wasn't running the HTPC server software at all, actually.

 

The HTPC is directly connected to a Samsung 65" 4K UHD via HDMI. The HDMI cable I bought is an 8K version, spec'd at 2.1.  She's also the only computer left with optical drives, so it's easier to rip purchased disks with that one, and store them directly on the system.

On 20/03/2021 at 04:22, InsaneNutter said:

Good luck, its a terrible time to be buying a GPU sadly.

No truer words have been spoken.

 

It's a seller's dream, and a buyer's nightmare out there. I found some 1030s at near $700... and even the least workable solution, the GTX 950/960, were going for about $500. Those cards weren't worth that when they hit the market.

 

I did find some 1660's to 2070s from $190, to $600 respectively... but those were all in China. And with import/export taxes and *cough* tRump's fricken tariffs... I am not spending more money on a card that isn't necessary, or wait for it to get here overseas.

 

So... endgame achieved. 

 

I appreciate all the help... :)

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farmeunit

Glad you got it sorted.  I just sold a 1060 6GB for $200 and they were going for $400.  Crazy.  Wish I knew you were looking.  I picked up a 2070S on Craiglist for $470.  Still too much, lol, but need something for my daughter's machine.  Someone is selling a 5700XT for $400 on a local CL, also.  I paid that at release time for mine.

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