Monoculturalism vs. Multiculturalism


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PGHammer

I am posting this is Real World Issues - not Domestic Politics - despite that only one true multiculture exsists - that of the United States.  The reason why is that the left and progressives globally - not just in the United States - hate the United States because it does NOT have a truly dominant ethnic culture - which is unique among the G-20, let alone the G-7!  On the other side is China - a large nation that is still a monoculture.  All those that are knuckling under to China are attracted to "cheap goods", and are willing to ignore the issues of a monoculture.  Monoculturalism has a crapton of problems; why adopt it?  The only way that has worked to avoid the pitfalls of monoculturalism is to not go there; instead, adopt multurailism.  The nightmare for those with pride in that domonant invariably-etnhnic culture means following ht (YIKES!) the only multiculture in existence - the multiculture of the United States.  I admit that I would be scared in their places; however, it is basically "Nature red in tooth and claw" here - adopt or become extinct AS a monoculture.  The Chinese government wants THEIR monoculture to dominate - and they are willing to adopt every "evil" of monoculturalism to make that happen.  Adopt what works - multiuculturalism.

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Nick H.

It took less than a sentence for it to degrade to this:

gaYPJMv.png

 

And I couldn't get past it. What do you mean America is the only true multicultural nation?! That's just nonsense.

 

Then there is something in the post about China being on the opposite end of the spectrum, throwing in something to do with economics which just seems like some weird attempt at fear-mongering.

 

What is this "discussion" about? What is the question being asked?

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+virtorio

image.png.abdb0767dcd3efd90b3423e698541813.png

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PGHammer
59 minutes ago, Nick H. said:

It took less than a sentence for it to degrade to this:

gaYPJMv.png

 

And I couldn't get past it. What do you mean America is the only true multicultural nation?! That's just nonsense.

 

Then there is something in the post about China being on the opposite end of the spectrum, throwing in something to do with economics which just seems like some weird attempt at fear-mongering.

 

What is this "discussion" about? What is the question being asked?

Nick H. - everywhere else, there is still a dominant ethnic/tribal culture; the United States never had one - as in since it became a nation - and it is despised for it. Look at the foundations of the thirteen original colonies - while the majority of them were founded by the UK, it was not true of all of them. (Look it up yourself; don't take my word for it!)  I get the reason for Cultural Conflict - nobody wants to see their culture become extinct.  However, all monocultures have a rather ugly flaw - in seeking to preserve that culture, you wind up with racism, ethnicism, etc.  What the heck is good about that?  Further, what has the United States been called since 1783?  "The Melting Pot" - as in multicultural.  The Chinese - you know, that nation with the largest population on the planet - is not merely a monoculture - but commits every sin possible that a monoculture can.  It also wants to impose that monoculture everywhere.

 

I am NOT saying that other nations should embrace American multiculture; what I am saying instead is that they should embrace multiculturaliosm itself amd make it their own - and stop being afraid of it.

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Jazmac
Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, PGHammer said:

Nick H. - everywhere else, there is still a dominant ethnic/tribal culture; the United States never had one - as in since it became a nation - and it is despised for it. Look at the foundations of the thirteen original colonies - while the majority of them were founded by the UK, it was not true of all of them. (Look it up yourself; don't take my word for it!)  I get the reason for Cultural Conflict - nobody wants to see their culture become extinct.  However, all monocultures have a rather ugly flaw - in seeking to preserve that culture, you wind up with racism, ethnicism, etc.  What the heck is good about that?  Further, what has the United States been called since 1783?  "The Melting Pot" - as in multicultural.  The Chinese - you know, that nation with the largest population on the planet - is not merely a monoculture - but commits every sin possible that a monoculture can.  It also wants to impose that monoculture everywhere.

 

I am NOT saying that other nations should embrace American multiculture; what I am saying instead is that they should embrace multiculturaliosm itself amd make it their own - and stop being afraid of it.

The United States has a race problem. Period. It always had a race problem and until people, specifically people who are not of color confront their demons, it will continue. Having more than a single culture in an environment has never been a problem for non-whites. But looking for scape goats with terms like multiculturalism to and then lay your hate off on liberals being responsible for republican governors signing bills to allow white drivers to hit and kill people with their cars without penality. That is just another way to avoid your demons while pretending you give a F. 

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PGHammer
12 minutes ago, Jazmac said:

The United States has a race problem. Period. It always had a race problem and until people, specifically people who are not of color confront their demons, it will continue. Having more than a single culture in an environment has never been a problem for non-whites. But looking for scape goats with terms like multiculturalism to and then lay your hate off on liberals being responsible for republican governors signing bills to allow white drivers to hit and kill people with their cars without penality. That is just another way to avoid your demons while pretending you give a F. 

Jazmac - racism and ethnicism are everywhere; I have not said, and have NEVER said, that the United States is clean.  I also am NOT saying that the rest of the world should embrace American culture - American multiculture is as unique as the United States itself is.  My issue is with ALL monocultures - as much as you want to make the issue the United States, name a SINGLE monoculture - anywhere - that is better.  Do you hate the United States because it is not a perfect multiculture - or are you simply seeking to prevent your own culture from being expunged?

 

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rand0m.bullet

Thanks for the heads up, I've lived in Australia for 35 years and this entire time I thought we had a multi cultural society but I guess I was wrong. I'll be sure to tell everyone that the USA is the one true multicultural society.

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FloatingFatMan
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, PGHammer said:

Nick H. - everywhere else, there is still a dominant ethnic/tribal culture; the United States never had one - as in since it became a nation - and it is despised for it. Look at the foundations of the thirteen original colonies - while the majority of them were founded by the UK, it was not true of all of them. (Look it up yourself; don't take my word for it!)  I get the reason for Cultural Conflict - nobody wants to see their culture become extinct.  However, all monocultures have a rather ugly flaw - in seeking to preserve that culture, you wind up with racism, ethnicism, etc.  What the heck is good about that?  Further, what has the United States been called since 1783?  "The Melting Pot" - as in multicultural.  The Chinese - you know, that nation with the largest population on the planet - is not merely a monoculture - but commits every sin possible that a monoculture can.  It also wants to impose that monoculture everywhere.

 

I am NOT saying that other nations should embrace American multiculture; what I am saying instead is that they should embrace multiculturaliosm itself amd make it their own - and stop being afraid of it.

From the mouth of someone who lives in THE most racist western nation there is...  The only western culture that cannot accept it's OWN identity and instead much of the citizenry have to call themselves things like "Irish American", or "Italian American" and so on, as if accepting your own national identity is somehow shameful.

 

You also display another typical American trait, arrogance.  That American is the only TRULY multicultural society and that you're better than say, a nation that has a history going back thousands of years... Honestly dude, that's one of the most stuck up, arrogant, blind and stupid things I've seen anyone say for a long time, and I've read the Trump thread!

 

Is the UK any better? Nope.  Are there any western nations better? Nope.  We all have problems and we all have to do better, but at least we don't feel a need to claim to be "the best" all the time.

 

So, other than displaying to the rest of us your ingrained biases, what was the point of this thread?

 

Edit:  If you want to get an idea as to how "multicultural" any particular nation is, take a look at the diversity of its leadership.

 

Edited by FloatingFatMan
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PGHammer
1 minute ago, FloatingFatMan said:

From the mouth of someone who lives in THE most racist western nation there is...  The only western culture that cannot accept it's OWN identity and instead much of the citizenry have to call themselves things like "Irish American", or "Italian American" and so on, as if accepting your own national identity is somehow shameful.

 

You also display another typical American trait, arrogance.  That American is the only TRULY multicultural society and that you're better than say, a nation that has a history going back thousands of years... Honestly dude, that's one of the most stuck up, arrogant, blind and stupid things I've seen anyone say for a long time, and I've read the Trump thread!

 

Is the UK any better? Nope.  Are there any western nations better? Nope.  We all have problems and we all have to do better, but at least we don't feel a need to claim to be "the best" all the time.

 

So, other than displaying to the rest of us your ingrained biases, what was the point of this thread?

Where in my posts - or ANY of my replies - did I defend the United States?  None of them.  Can the United States do better?  Not only yes - but HECK yes.  I have never - as in EVER - claimed the United States was perfect - not even once!  In this thread - in fact, in ALL my posts on cultural conflict - I have unhesitatingly pointed out that monoculturalism - in and of itself - is fundamentally and fatally flawed!

 

As bad as the United States' implementation of multicultural is, it is loads better than any and every monoculture on the planet.  If you can implement multiculturalism better than the United States, do so - why would I- or anyone else that believes in multiculturalism as a reality - have an issue with it?

 

If I were defending the United States, I would have posted this in Domestic Politics - not Real World Issues.  But it isn't about the United States - but dealing with - literally - THE worst example of monoculture which is China.  They DO seek to impose that monoculture on the rest of the planet - why are you willing to put up with it?

 

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FloatingFatMan
2 minutes ago, PGHammer said:

Where in my posts - or ANY of my replies - did I defend the United States?  None of them.  Can the United States do better?  Not only yes - but HECK yes.  I have never - as in EVER - claimed the United States was perfect - not even once!  In this thread - in fact, in ALL my posts on cultural conflict - I have unhesitatingly pointed out that monoculturalism - in and of itself - is fundamentally and fatally flawed!

 

As bad as the United States' implementation of multicultural is, it is loads better than any and every monoculture on the planet.  If you can implement multiculturalism better than the United States, do so - why would I- or anyone else that believes in multiculturalism as a reality - have an issue with it?

 

If I were defending the United States, I would have posted this in Domestic Politics - not Real World Issues.  But it isn't about the United States - but dealing with - literally - THE worst example of monoculture which is China.  They DO seek to impose that monoculture on the rest of the planet - why are you willing to put up with it?

 

Dude, you started this thread with "America is better than all you guys!".  How can you NOT tell that that was you defending America (defending, I might add, when no one here had attacked America for this).

 

As for China being the worst monoculture, define "worst".  There are plenty of other countries that are just as "guilty" of being largely homogenous as China is, and I don't feel any burning need to "deal with" them for that.  Is China a problem?  Yes, but not because of its homogenous society; it's a problem because of its dictatorial leadership.

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PGHammer
5 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

Dude, you started this thread with "America is better than all you guys!".  How can you NOT tell that that was you defending America (defending, I might add, when no one here had attacked America for this).

 

As for China being the worst monoculture, define "worst".  There are plenty of other countries that are just as "guilty" of being largely homogenous as China is, and I don't feel any burning need to "deal with" them for that.  Is China a problem?  Yes, but not because of its homogenous society; it's a problem because of its dictatorial leadership.

All of you have an extant monoculture - including the UK, Floating.  I find monoculture - in and of itself - flawed.  The flaw, is in fact, prevalent in every single monoculture.  The United States is not - and never has been - a monoculture. It is also NOT- as much as I wish it were - a perfect multiculture.  I am NOT defending the United States' brand of multiculturalism - this is not the forum for it, for one thing. I am, instead, pointing an extant threat to every other culture on Earth - one far worse - and with far greater flaws - than that of the United States - China.

 

They are - literally - the WORST possible example of monoculture - and they DO seek to impose it on the planet entire.  Are you Neronian - fiddling while an even more barbaric nation than the United States is at your door?

 

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Jim K

Title of this thread could have easily been "China = Bad"

 

Japan doesn't seem to be doing so bad even with its "flawed" monoculture. 

 

Also, the United States is the "only one true multicultural" ... wtf?  Hardly.

 

My head hurts after reading this thread.  Basically, it has given me multiheadache vs. a monoheadache.  

 

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FloatingFatMan
Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, PGHammer said:

All of you have an extant monoculture - including the UK, Floating.  I find monoculture - in and of itself - flawed.  The flaw, is in fact, prevalent in every single monoculture.  The United States is not - and never has been - a monoculture. It is also NOT- as much as I wish it were - a perfect multiculture.  I am NOT defending the United States' brand of multiculturalism - this is not the forum for it, for one thing. I am, instead, pointing an extant threat to every other culture on Earth - one far worse - and with far greater flaws - than that of the United States - China.

 

They are - literally - the WORST possible example of monoculture - and they DO seek to impose it on the planet entire.  Are you Neronian - fiddling while an even more barbaric nation than the United States is at your door?

 

So does America.  With approximately 3/5 of US society being of white European descent, you're just as monoculturistic as the rest of Europe, so don't even TRY to make yourselves look better; you ain't.

 

The threat China poses (to American "superiority"), has NOTHING to do with its monoculturism.

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adrynalyne

Dumb thread based upon false pretenses.

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sao123

Objection:  Assumes facts not yet in evidence.

 

What proof do you provide that monoculturalism is bad?

Monoculturalism would seem to have many benefits... easier to govern,  majority would provide true direction, not discord and division, and gridlock. 

If the usa could perfectly seperate into 2 entities, I believe people would feel a lot better and happier. 

It is clear progressives dont want the culture and policies of conservatives and vice versa.  If each had their own sovereign place to rule and live without the interference from the other, most of the USA's problems would just vanish.

 

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Nick H.

I started quoting each of the bits that you said which I took issue with, then realised that I would be here all day trying to make it legible.

 

America is not despised for its multiculturalism. But it's impossible for me to prove an absence of something, so I need you to provide evidence (not opinion) of where you have seen that the U.S. is hated for being multicultural.

 

There is no such thing as American multiculturalism. The phrase almost sounds like a contradiction. There is a country, America, and then there is the culture/cultures within. If a country owns a culture (insofar as a culture can be owned) then that becomes a monoculture, even if its foundations are rooted in multiple cultures.

 

You weren't defending the United States in your posts at the start, you were putting it on a pedestal. And by doing so it has drawn understandable ridicule which you then chose to defend.

 

To say that other countries have extant monoculture is just ridiculous. It's a flowery way to try and say, "there is still a dominant original culture in a multicultural area, and that isn't like the U.S." Except that it is exactly like the U.S.

 

And finally, throughout your replies you have kept making the comparison between the U.S. and China. Others here have provided examples of monocultural and multicultural societies but you go back to the U.S. vs. China, alluding to the viewpoint that they are the extremes of the cultural spectrum and ignoring other examples provided. Which seems to me like this "discussion" isn't monoculture vs. multiculture, it is U.S. vs. China, and it's a "discussion" that seems more like a propaganda piece rather than a chance for discourse.

 

As an aside, I would suggest you and anyone interested read Joseph Campbell's conversation with Bill Moyers, The Power of Myth. If you have watched 13 Hours then you may recognize the following which was paraphrased in the film:

Quote

Heaven and hell are within us, and all the gods are within us. This is the great realization of the Upanishads of India in the ninth century B.C. All the gods, all the heavens, all the worlds, are within us.

There are some great sections throughout the book about the foundation of the modern U.S. as well as the cultures that existed before it. If you want to talk about cultures and their foundations, I highly recommend giving the book a read. As a fun little note, the conversation they have was during a tour around Skywalker Ranch. They come back to Star Wars several times throughout the conversation. :laugh:

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+Dick Montage

What absolute ######!  Your post is nothing more than blinkered drivel and not worthy of the few kb that it occupies on the Neowin database.  Your opening premise is absolutely incorrect and it goes downhill from there.

 

How much is your chosen state sponsor paying you to publicly embarrass yourself online like this?

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+Dick Montage
8 hours ago, PGHammer said:

racism and ethnicism are everywhere

Having travelled quite extensively - it is everywhere, but NOTHING like I have seen in America.  It's part of the absolute fabric of life there.

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Jazmac
13 hours ago, PGHammer said:

Jazmac - racism and ethnicism are everywhere; I have not said, and have NEVER said, that the United States is clean.  I also am NOT saying that the rest of the world should embrace American culture - American multiculture is as unique as the United States itself is.  My issue is with ALL monocultures - as much as you want to make the issue the United States, name a SINGLE monoculture - anywhere - that is better.  Do you hate the United States because it is not a perfect multiculture - or are you simply seeking to prevent your own culture from being expunged?

 

Does Black Lives Matter?

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PGHammer
On 13/05/2021 at 23:53, adrynalyne said:

Dumb thread based upon false pretenses.

In what way are the pretenses false, adrynalyne?  All I have said - and it's been something I have said for years - is that monoculture is fatally frlawed.  In fact, here is that flaw - it insists that entrants into it give up their own culture.  Under multiculturalism, that goes away.  (You have a culture you want to keep?  Bring it; it has a home here.)  That is why multiculture is attractive to immigrants.  Now if you have a monoculture - and you ALSO need immigrants - that is one heck of a hurdler to overcome.  And all the monocultures that don't want to change know it.

 

On China vs. the United States - the Chinese are not just a monoculture - they despise every culture that is not Han Chinese.  They also seek to impose Han Chinese culture on the planet by force.  The United States does not - and never has - sought to impose their multiculture on anyone - anywhere.  In fact, it has been criticized for not having a dominant monoculture.  (No; we don't.)  It has nothing to do with Trump - except that he is quite happy with it in a way that no President has been since John Fitzgerald Kennedy!  (Lest we forget, JFK was a Roman Catholic - a minority in the United States - and especially in American politics - and he took a ton of grief for it!)  Go back and read - actually READ - "The Ugly American" - it was a critique of American multuiculturalism that predates my own birth.

 

On western Europe (geographically west of Germany) - you have eight national multicultures - each wants to become dominant in that nation.  That creates "cultural conflict".  That is expected - I even pointed that out when I kicked off the thread!  If you really wonder WHY the United States is regarded - by immigrants! - as "the shining city on the hill" - it is because you are not asked to give up your culture to come to the United States.  If you like your culture, bring it with you.

 

The negative effects of abortion-as-choice:  I am pro-choice; I have stated it more than once.  However, it has minuses - a rather LARGE one is that it results in NPG (Negative Population Growth).  If you also have a large social safety net, this sucks - and sucks badly.  If you want to attract immigrants - and if you have a large social safety net,YBYB you do! - scaring them off won't get it done!  I have said nothing more - or less - than that.  (I am actually daring to criticize a policy I am in favor of; how dare I!)  It's not news - it is especially NOT news from me!  If a policy has flaws - even one I support - I will point them out.

 

 

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Xenon
Posted (edited)
On 14/05/2021 at 05:48, Dick Montage said:

Having travelled quite extensively - it is everywhere, but NOTHING like I have seen in America.  It's part of the absolute fabric of life there.

I have traveled and in lived in the middle east, England, France and Chile for a bit. There are worse places, just not as publicized.

 

The entire argument PGHammer makes is trash. 

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Nick H.
13 minutes ago, PGHammer said:

The negative effects of abortion-as-choice...

2OqygBH.gif

 

Good lord...this discussion is a train wreck. It's not a discussion, it's a podium for random ramblings; throwing anything out there to see what gets a reply.

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adrynalyne
2 hours ago, PGHammer said:

In what way are the pretenses false, adrynalyne?  All I have said - and it's been something I have said for years - is that monoculture is fatally frlawed.  In fact, here is that flaw - it insists that entrants into it give up their own culture.  Under multiculturalism, that goes away.  (You have a culture you want to keep?  Bring it; it has a home here.)  That is why multiculture is attractive to immigrants.  Now if you have a monoculture - and you ALSO need immigrants - that is one heck of a hurdler to overcome.  And all the monocultures that don't want to change know it.

 

On China vs. the United States - the Chinese are not just a monoculture - they despise every culture that is not Han Chinese.  They also seek to impose Han Chinese culture on the planet by force.  The United States does not - and never has - sought to impose their multiculture on anyone - anywhere.  In fact, it has been criticized for not having a dominant monoculture.  (No; we don't.)  It has nothing to do with Trump - except that he is quite happy with it in a way that no President has been since John Fitzgerald Kennedy!  (Lest we forget, JFK was a Roman Catholic - a minority in the United States - and especially in American politics - and he took a ton of grief for it!)  Go back and read - actually READ - "The Ugly American" - it was a critique of American multuiculturalism that predates my own birth.

 

On western Europe (geographically west of Germany) - you have eight national multicultures - each wants to become dominant in that nation.  That creates "cultural conflict".  That is expected - I even pointed that out when I kicked off the thread!  If you really wonder WHY the United States is regarded - by immigrants! - as "the shining city on the hill" - it is because you are not asked to give up your culture to come to the United States.  If you like your culture, bring it with you.

 

The negative effects of abortion-as-choice:  I am pro-choice; I have stated it more than once.  However, it has minuses - a rather LARGE one is that it results in NPG (Negative Population Growth).  If you also have a large social safety net, this sucks - and sucks badly.  If you want to attract immigrants - and if you have a large social safety net,YBYB you do! - scaring them off won't get it done!  I have said nothing more - or less - than that.  (I am actually daring to criticize a policy I am in favor of; how dare I!)  It's not news - it is especially NOT news from me!  If a policy has flaws - even one I support - I will point them out.

 

 

What false pretenses? You were already called out on them. Look no further than your own thread. 

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PGHammer
On 14/05/2021 at 05:33, Nick H. said:

I started quoting each of the bits that you said which I took issue with, then realised that I would be here all day trying to make it legible.

 

America is not despised for its multiculturalism. But it's impossible for me to prove an absence of something, so I need you to provide evidence (not opinion) of where you have seen that the U.S. is hated for being multicultural.

 

There is no such thing as American multiculturalism. The phrase almost sounds like a contradiction. There is a country, America, and then there is the culture/cultures within. If a country owns a culture (insofar as a culture can be owned) then that becomes a monoculture, even if its foundations are rooted in multiple cultures.

 

You weren't defending the United States in your posts at the start, you were putting it on a pedestal. And by doing so it has drawn understandable ridicule which you then chose to defend.

 

To say that other countries have extant monoculture is just ridiculous. It's a flowery way to try and say, "there is still a dominant original culture in a multicultural area, and that isn't like the U.S." Except that it is exactly like the U.S.

 

And finally, throughout your replies you have kept making the comparison between the U.S. and China. Others here have provided examples of monocultural and multicultural societies but you go back to the U.S. vs. China, alluding to the viewpoint that they are the extremes of the cultural spectrum and ignoring other examples provided. Which seems to me like this "discussion" isn't monoculture vs. multiculture, it is U.S. vs. China, and it's a "discussion" that seems more like a propaganda piece rather than a chance for discourse.

 

As an aside, I would suggest you and anyone interested read Joseph Campbell's conversation with Bill Moyers, The Power of Myth. If you have watched 13 Hours then you may recognize the following which was paraphrased in the film:

There are some great sections throughout the book about the foundation of the modern U.S. as well as the cultures that existed before it. If you want to talk about cultures and their foundations, I highly recommend giving the book a read. As a fun little note, the conversation they have was during a tour around Skywalker Ranch. They come back to Star Wars several times throughout the conversation. :laugh:

I am defending multiculturalism from the POV of the *immigrant* - not the POV of an American.

 

Monoculturalism - regardless of HOW old it is - demands that entrants give up any culture they have.  That is something multiculturalism does not do. Which would be your preference as an immigrant?

 

I am putting multiculturalism on a pedestal - not a specific multiculture.  I am doing so because immigrants themselves are doing that - not necessarily because Americans are doing so.  The United States is not a perfect multiculture - nor have I ever said so.  However, that it IS a multiculture is undeniable.  I posit that the United States is hated not because it is not a perfect multiculture - but because it does not require that immigrants throw away what culture they have already adopted - as is typical of all monocultures.  If you can implement multiculturalism better than the United States, fine - do so.  I have no issue with that - nor would anyone truly in favor of multiculturalism.

 

On the United Kingdom; it is still largely a monoculture; the English still are predominant - and the Scottish and Wales are still having issues with it, even well into 2021; look no further than the recent elections in both Scotland and Wales.  I am not moving the goalposts a whit - I am simply reporting from the current news.  Our (United States) liberal press has a lot invested in making anti-woke look bad - they are - literally - the "squeaky wheel".

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FloatingFatMan

Wow... Just.. Wow... Your ignorance truly knows no bounds... :no: 

 

The minor issues between England, Scotland and Wales have NOTHING to do with culture, but not being from the UK I wouldn't expect you to even remotely understand.

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